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Is Hossa a better Selke candidate than Jere Lehtinen [in his Selke years]

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Old
12-19-2014, 12:09 PM
  #1
Ziostilon
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Is Hossa a better Selke candidate than Jere Lehtinen [in his Selke years]

I've read some other Jere Lehtinen threads on this board

He doesn't get the credit for his Selkes because this get into the debate of whether the Selke is for players that play exceptional defense and include their offensive production
Or if it's for the John Madden type

Which brings me back to the point of this thread

When you think of active NHL winger with Selke contention, it'd be Marian Hossa

Under the guidelines that got Jere Lehtinen his Selkes

Do you think Hossa (in his prime years of Selke contention) would be close or even surpass Lehtinen in voting

And which other current active winger do you think would also have that capability

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12-19-2014, 12:14 PM
  #2
Four Boilermakers
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Hossa is definitely one of the best defensive wingers in the game and has been for several years. Zetterberg if also a solid candidate if you consider him a LW.

Voracek has been playing like a Selke candidate this year. I think he's very underrated defensively.

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Old
12-19-2014, 12:20 PM
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Oan
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How the hell Lehtinen even got any Selke trophies? He was a winger, and produced only 40-50 points per season, that's terrible offense. Would that even be possible in todays league? Has the definition of this trophy changed in the past 10 years?

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12-19-2014, 12:41 PM
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Mayor Bee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oan View Post
How the hell Lehtinen even got any Selke trophies? He was a winger, and produced only 40-50 points per season, that's terrible offense. Would that even be possible in todays league? Has the definition of this trophy changed in the past 10 years?
Voting through the 1990s was starting to get spotty, as the Selke transitioned from "forward who plays exceptional defense" to "scoring forward who will at least backcheck regularly regardless of whether he's good at it or not".

- Doug Gilmour won in 1992-93; he was the first guy to fall into the latter category.
- Fedorov and Gilmour were 1-2 in 1993-94
- Ron Francis won it in 1994-95
- The top five in 1995-96 were Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Damphousse, and Linden.

When Lehtinen entered the fray in 1996-97, he was still behind his teammate Mike Modano in Selke voting. By this time, a backlash against the direction of Selke voting had developed, as this five-year run of praising scoring forwards for attempting to backcheck was seen as a bad omen.

That's when Lehtinen won. Of course, what we've seen the last few years is now a repeat of the same thing; a truly brilliant defensive forward like Manny Malhotra has finished above 19th in voting one time, a guy like P.J. Axelsson finished in the top-10 once, but there's all sorts of room for a guy like Patrick Marleau to get serious consideration.

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12-19-2014, 12:42 PM
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ck26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oan View Post
How the hell Lehtinen even got any Selke trophies? He was a winger, and produced only 40-50 points per season, that's terrible offense. Would that even be possible in todays league? Has the definition of this trophy changed in the past 10 years?
Half a point per game is "terrible?" In the pre-lockout, dead puck era?

What grade were you in when Jere Lehtinen retired?

He was an exceptional defender and a tremendous all-around player.

To the OP ... Hossa would never out-Lehtinen Lehtinen with the old "defend first, score second" criteria, but if the criteria is "score first, defend second" he blows Lehtinen away.

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12-19-2014, 12:45 PM
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PepperKeenan
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As a kid I couldn't understand why this guy (didn't know anything about him) was on the cover for NHL 2001 in Europe. Still can't figure out why they chose him tbh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oan View Post
How the hell Lehtinen even got any Selke trophies? He was a winger, and produced only 40-50 points per season, that's terrible offense. Would that even be possible in todays league? Has the definition of this trophy changed in the past 10 years?
Draper won it in 2004 scoring 40 points in 67 games, sure he was a center but still. The official definition hasn't changed I think but they've sure changed the way they think before voting.

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12-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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tikkanen >>>

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Old
12-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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Curufinwe
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Originally Posted by Four Boilermakers View Post
Voracek has been playing like a Selke candidate this year. I think he's very underrated defensively.
Uh, what? He doesn't even kill penalties. Giroux does, and gets way more DZ starts than Voracek and is killing it on faceoffs. He's a much better Selke candidate than Voracek, and Giroux isn't a great Selke candidate.

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12-19-2014, 12:58 PM
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TOML
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He's good, but Lehtinen won Selke's in the clutch era. Better.

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12-19-2014, 01:09 PM
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The funny thing is, Hossa has struggled scoring a lot this year but stays on the top line because of his defense. So he has basically regressed to being the player Lehtinen was that earned him the Selke.

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12-19-2014, 01:11 PM
  #11
eyetest is useless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Voting through the 1990s was starting to get spotty, as the Selke transitioned from "forward who plays exceptional defense" to "scoring forward who will at least backcheck regularly regardless of whether he's good at it or not".

- Doug Gilmour won in 1992-93; he was the first guy to fall into the latter category.
- Fedorov and Gilmour were 1-2 in 1993-94
- Ron Francis won it in 1994-95
- The top five in 1995-96 were Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Damphousse, and Linden.

When Lehtinen entered the fray in 1996-97, he was still behind his teammate Mike Modano in Selke voting. By this time, a backlash against the direction of Selke voting had developed, as this five-year run of praising scoring forwards for attempting to backcheck was seen as a bad omen.

That's when Lehtinen won. Of course, what we've seen the last few years is now a repeat of the same thing; a truly brilliant defensive forward like Manny Malhotra has finished above 19th in voting one time, a guy like P.J. Axelsson finished in the top-10 once, but there's all sorts of room for a guy like Patrick Marleau to get serious consideration.
Chances are if you can't score 40 or so points, you're not spending enough time in the offensive zone. If you don't spend time in the offensive zone, you're hurting your team defensively. I don't know about Malholtra but Axelsson (much like Jay McClement today, who people insist is also a great defensive forward) was pinned into his own zone without a clue how to get out of there all the time, and that's not just because of zone starts.

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Old
12-19-2014, 01:52 PM
  #12
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Lehtinen was just a beast to play against and could score clutch goals.

He could put up 20-30 goals in the DPE, 45-50 points, and he won the Selke three times. Only three other players have won it three times or more.

For him being a winger and to have that many times really goes to show how good of an all around player, especially defensively, he was.

Hossa has been one of the top defensive wingers in the game over his career, but has been overshadowed by some exceptional centers, and he's not on Lehtinen's level defensively, so he's going to lose out.

I also believe that just because a player puts up points doesn't mean that they can't be the best defensively.

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Old
12-19-2014, 03:07 PM
  #13
Sasso09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Uh, what? He doesn't even kill penalties. Giroux does, and gets way more DZ starts than Voracek and is killing it on faceoffs. He's a much better Selke candidate than Voracek, and Giroux isn't a great Selke candidate.
Giroux is very much a top 10 selke guy this year based on his defensive stats. Voracek not so much. Although Voracek does have a very similar game to Hossa, I think Voracek is slightly better offensively and Hossa is a decent amount better defensively.

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12-19-2014, 03:55 PM
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Heimerdinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Voting through the 1990s was starting to get spotty, as the Selke transitioned from "forward who plays exceptional defense" to "scoring forward who will at least backcheck regularly regardless of whether he's good at it or not".

- Doug Gilmour won in 1992-93; he was the first guy to fall into the latter category.
- Fedorov and Gilmour were 1-2 in 1993-94
- Ron Francis won it in 1994-95
- The top five in 1995-96 were Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Damphousse, and Linden.

When Lehtinen entered the fray in 1996-97, he was still behind his teammate Mike Modano in Selke voting. By this time, a backlash against the direction of Selke voting had developed, as this five-year run of praising scoring forwards for attempting to backcheck was seen as a bad omen.

That's when Lehtinen won. Of course, what we've seen the last few years is now a repeat of the same thing; a truly brilliant defensive forward like Manny Malhotra has finished above 19th in voting one time, a guy like P.J. Axelsson finished in the top-10 once, but there's all sorts of room for a guy like Patrick Marleau to get serious consideration.

It would be worth noting that he was 5th in voting that season.

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Old
12-19-2014, 04:08 PM
  #15
oconnor9sean
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Jere Lehtinen is a top 5 defensive forward of all time. Hossa has a strong Two Way game, but he's not in the same league as Lehtinen when it comes to Selke caliber. To be fair, not many people are.

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Old
12-19-2014, 04:20 PM
  #16
The Kingslayer
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Go back and watch some old school Lehtinen. The guy was an amazing defensive forward who could still tickle the twine. Hossa is good defensively but not on Lehtinen's level. Trust me I hated how he shut down my Avs.

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