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POLL: Who got the better of the Turris trade?

View Poll Results: Who won the Turris trade?
Senators 32 11.47%
Coyotes 128 45.88%
Even Trade 34 12.19%
Not sure 85 30.47%
Voters: 279. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-19-2011, 02:32 AM
  #26
The Waffler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabokov20 View Post
Turris has an absolute laser of a shot. Can't wait to see this kid play!


Greening - Spez - Butler
Regin - Turris - Alfie
Foligno - Smith - Condra
K-Dawg - Winny - Neil

Cowen - Karlsson
Phillips - Lee
Wiercioch (is he fit?) - Carkner

Note: might be forgetting someone
Milan
Gonchar
Kuba
Konopka

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Old
12-19-2011, 02:40 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I voted not sure. This whole fascination with declaring winners and losers without either player playing a game is a silly aspect of fandom, actual hockey people don't think like this.
Real GM's, business people and analysts of all kinds make judgments on all kinds of things 2 seconds later, 2 hours, 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months later, 2 years later, 2 decades later. They need to be able to understand things in a timely fashion and be able to make predictions. The difference between them and most of us is that they're grounded in the knowledge that the longer term reflections are more accurate and their judgments should be weighted accordingly.

At the moment, it feels like the Coyotes absolutely robbed us. That can obviously change... much more easily than feeling like they robbed us 2 year after the deal was made. But still, 2 days after; they robbed Murray blind.

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Old
12-19-2011, 03:16 AM
  #28
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Best way I can say it:

No matter who the winner is or will become Phoenix didn't lose.

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Old
12-19-2011, 06:55 AM
  #29
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wow. only 6% of sens fans think we WON this trade right now. i figured it'd be a small number but not that small.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:18 AM
  #30
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Sens lose this deal. This should have been a one-for-one deal, at least.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:51 AM
  #31
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Question should be: "Did the Sens improve by making this trade?"

It's not about "winning" trades. Both Rundblad and Turris are good hockey players, but Phoenix and Ottawa had different needs, so a swap was made. Both teams are better off, but it's VERY premature to gauge the degree to which they have improved and then to compare that.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:57 AM
  #32
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If anyone votes anything other than "not sure" it just speaks to either A) their homerism if they voted Ottawa or B) their ignorance if they voted for the Yotes.

Ask me in 3 years.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:58 AM
  #33
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Phoenix definitely can't lose this one. They got rid of a player who was done in their organization and managed to get two assets for him, one who was considered a top ten prosect in hockey and what a could be a top 40 pick.

With that said, Runblad is not a NHL player, not now anyways.

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:00 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Phoenix definitely can't lose this one. They got rid of a player who was done in their organization and managed to get two assets for him, one who was considered a top ten prosect in hockey and what a could be a top 40 pick.

With that said, Runblad is not a NHL player, not now anyways.
So if Rundblad turns out to be a 5, 6 D man that can't be trusted at ES the Yotes don't lose? If they trade Ottawa's 2nd for a rental player going into the playoffs that doesn't resign they can't lose this deal?

Do people have no foresight at all?

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:10 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
So if Rundblad turns out to be a 5, 6 D man that can't be trusted at ES the Yotes don't lose? If they trade Ottawa's 2nd for a rental player going into the playoffs that doesn't resign they can't lose this deal?

Do people have no foresight at all?
"Losing" a trade should be measured relative to how you would have done without making the trade, not by how your gains compare to the gains the other team makes.

Turris was never going to be a player for Phoenix. It's clear right now that it was a smart move for them. On the other hand, Turris has boom potential - the Sens could gain quite a lot.

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by source View Post
"Losing" a trade should be measured relative to how you would have done without making the trade, not by how your gains compare to the gains the other team makes.

Turris was never going to be a player for Phoenix. It's clear right now that it was a smart move for them. On the other hand, Turris has boom potential - the Sens could gain quite a lot.
I've never debated if it was the right move. In another thread I stated how I liked the move from the Yotes perspective right now. To say there is no way this can end badly for them is wrong though.

What if they played they turned down for Turris was Schneider? What if Rundblad flops and Schneider goes on to be a legit #1 for a decade?

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:33 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
What if they played they turned down for Turris was Schneider? What if Rundblad flops and Schneider goes on to be a legit #1 for a decade?
We'll never know what the other teams offered. We have to evaluate with what we have in front of us, not la-la land speculation.

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:39 AM
  #38
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We'll never know what the other teams offered. We have to evaluate with what we have in front of us, not la-la land speculation.
Like Rundblad turning into a top 2 D man? That's what everyone who says Ottawa got fleeced is speculating/predcting/w/e else.

Pheonix still gave up something in terms of another prospect and pick from another organization. That's a fact. People may never know if it was the right choice because of the details but there is still opportunity cost in terms of what else Pheonix gave up.

If Rundblad flops (not saying he will or won't) then clearly another deal from another team would have been a better option, would it not?

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:50 AM
  #39
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I voted Phoenix because there is no possible way they lose from this deal... Turris was a toxic asset for them, and they got a return a lot of people didn't think they could get. Phoenix got more value back for an asset that was clearly done in the desert, so they get too recoup their value and get a 2nd chance with a player who could very well work out better there than Turris ever would have.

That being said, me saying Phoenix won the deal doesn't necessarily mean I thought Ottawa LOST the deal, either. Ottawa takes on more risk than Phoenix in this deal, and by that virtue, I say Phoenix wins. But that is strictly looking at one side off the equation: both teams clearly stand the opportunity to benefit from this deal.

I'm liking this trade the more I let it sink in. After all, I was advocating that the Sens make a move for Turris, I was just doing so when I thought the price would be a lot lower. I think Rundblad will be a good player, but I also don't think we did him any favors by sending him to Phoenix... I mean, if you thought he was going to have a hard time making it here playing behind Karlsson/Cowen, just look at the stud young blueline Phoenix will be boasting in the next 3 years. If anything, Rundblad's job just got harder. I still think he'll be a good one, but he doesn't exactly have a spot guaranteed to him anytime soon.

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:53 AM
  #40
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I voted Ottawa. As of right now, Turris is better at his position then Rundblad at his, and we need a 2nd line center, we have a crowded D core already.
Hope it works out.

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Old
12-19-2011, 08:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sensjersey11 View Post
I voted Phoenix because there is no possible way they lose from this deal... Turris was a toxic asset for them, and they got a return a lot of people didn't think they could get. Phoenix got more value back for an asset that was clearly done in the desert, so they get too recoup their value and get a 2nd chance with a player who could very well work out better there than Turris ever would have.

That being said, me saying Phoenix won the deal doesn't necessarily mean I thought Ottawa LOST the deal, either. Ottawa takes on more risk than Phoenix in this deal, and by that virtue, I say Phoenix wins. But that is strictly looking at one side off the equation: both teams clearly stand the opportunity to benefit from this deal.

I'm liking this trade the more I let it sink in. After all, I was advocating that the Sens make a move for Turris, I was just doing so when I thought the price would be a lot lower. I think Rundblad will be a good player, but I also don't think we did him any favors by sending him to Phoenix... I mean, if you thought he was going to have a hard time making it here playing behind Karlsson/Cowen, just look at the stud young blueline Phoenix will be boasting in the next 3 years. If anything, Rundblad's job just got harder. I still think he'll be a good one, but he doesn't exactly have a spot guaranteed to him anytime soon.
That's all fair but the Yotes still gave up something in a deal they didn't take. Will anyone ever know what Vancouver or Columbus were willing to give up? Probably not, but if Rundblad does flop then people have a right to question what was the other deals on the table.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:11 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
That's all fair but the Yotes still gave up something in a deal they didn't take. Will anyone ever know what Vancouver or Columbus were willing to give up? Probably not, but if Rundblad does flop then people have a right to question what was the other deals on the table.
Oh, I agree, but even if Rundblad flops and the 2nd rounder doesn't produce a player, they break even on this deal. In my opinion Turris was not going to work out in Phoenix (based on what Maloney told the press about Kyle's desire to leave).

It's also a little silly to speculate about other possible deals, unless someone leaks some info about them. Just like it was silly for us to speculate that Turris could be had for a fraction of what we paid: clearly, it wasn't true, and therefore useless information. Just my opinion though.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:17 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by DukeNukem View Post
I voted Ottawa. As of right now, Turris is better at his position then Rundblad at his, and we need a 2nd line center, we have a crowded D core already.
Hope it works out.
This is pretty much what I think.

You have to take the trade in context - what did the Sens need? What were their alternatives? What is coming down the pipeline in terms of players?

I feel like I've heard the "we need a 2nd line center" for some time, and the fact we just got one now suggests the options out there were not exactly plentiful. So if it seems we overpaid for Turris it could be that that's just what the market is like right now for that sort of player (2nd line C)?

I also think Rundblad has been terrible lately, but one assumes another year or two of seasoning can resolve that.

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12-19-2011, 09:18 AM
  #44
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I wouldn't call alienate your teams highest ever draft choice breaking even. The fact he was even available in the first place was a mistake by the Yotes.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:21 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by sensjersey11 View Post
Oh, I agree, but even if Rundblad flops and the 2nd rounder doesn't produce a player, they break even on this deal. In my opinion Turris was not going to work out in Phoenix (based on what Maloney told the press about Kyle's desire to leave).

It's also a little silly to speculate about other possible deals, unless someone leaks some info about them. Just like it was silly for us to speculate that Turris could be had for a fraction of what we paid: clearly, it wasn't true, and therefore useless information. Just my opinion though.
I agree that Turris has to be traded and the Yotes needed to do it soon. But to say they break even no matter what is false IMO.

As an example, Pheonix trades Turris to NYR for Redden. Do they come out even because they needed to get rid of Turris? Obviously not.

I like the deal from Pheonix's end because they are getting a player with top D man potential (potential being the key word). The 2nd was a little gravey, that's all.

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12-19-2011, 09:21 AM
  #46
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I wouldn't call alienate your teams highest ever draft choice breaking even.
Phoenix loses at developing their player.

Phoenix wins this trade, looked at without the context of how poorly they handled Kyle in previous years.

By "Breaking Even", I'm referring to the potential Kyle probably had of working out in the organization as of Dec 17th, 2011. Not June of 2007.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:29 AM
  #47
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This is pretty much what I think.

You have to take the trade in context - what did the Sens need? What were their alternatives? What is coming down the pipeline in terms of players?

I feel like I've heard the "we need a 2nd line center" for some time, and the fact we just got one now suggests the options out there were not exactly plentiful. So if it seems we overpaid for Turris it could be that that's just what the market is like right now for that sort of player (2nd line C)?

I also think Rundblad has been terrible lately, but one assumes another year or two of seasoning can resolve that.
Is Turris a NHL 2nd line center though? He's been drafted nearly 5 years ago and he's put up 40 something points in 130 games.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:35 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by sensjersey11 View Post
Phoenix loses at developing their player.

Phoenix wins this trade, looked at without the context of how poorly they handled Kyle in previous years.

By "Breaking Even", I'm referring to the potential Kyle probably had of working out in the organization as of Dec 17th, 2011. Not June of 2007.
I am saying that "breaking even" as defined by you is largely irrelevant because you can't actually separate the "trade" from "everything that led up to the trade."

If I try and sell my Ferrari which was appraised for 200k, but I am a lazy ass and don't anything other than put a sign in the driveway, I can't say I got full value for the item if I end up knocking 50k off the top despite the fact that I didn't tell anyone about it. Breaking even would be keeping the car or getting 200k for it. Getting 150k for it because of mismanagement is not breaking even.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:54 AM
  #49
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Why do we have to measure if we loose or win a trade?

If Turris comes in and play like a top 6, the trade will be a good one; Cowen play made Rundblad expendable.

Neil vs Goligoski: both teams were happy with what they gave and the return they got. He made their team better.

My question is: beside Turris, which young top 6 forward would have been available for that price (DR7 & 2nd)?

Schenn? Brassard? {fill in other young player's name here}?

I'm sure the Sens went around and were offered over 30 players that did not fit into Sens' vision.

Management probably believe rebuild is over the way we performed against Boston and Pittsburg, we are good enough to be in the playoff if DR 7 is replaced by a defenseman not as mistakes prone.

And that Turris (as per mngt analysis) will filled the missing top 6 either as a sniper with Spezza or a 2nd line centre.

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12-19-2011, 10:04 AM
  #50
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My question is: beside Turris, which young top 6 forward would have been available for that price (DR7 & 2nd)?

Schenn? Brassard? {fill in other young player's name here}?
Right off the top of my head, Sam Gagner. Considering the black hole that is the Oilers back end, there was possibly a trade to be made there. Not that I think Gagner will ever amount to greatness but his Resume blows Turris 27000 ways to sunday.

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