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Ryan Kesler

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Old
12-20-2011, 02:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
I'd expect a Van fan to say that, Phi fan would say the Sam thing. Giroux is a fair deal better than Kesler.
No he's not... Tell me when Giroux wins a Selke and is an absolute monster at both ends of the ice, and a wrecking ball to boot.

Even if he was, Edler is FAR better than Carle, and that skews this trade MASSIVELY.

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12-20-2011, 03:00 PM
  #102
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I think both teams deny that. Giroux is the most valuable piece in the deal convincingly. Edler has about the same advantage over Carle as Giroux has over Kesler. Carle is continuously underrated IMO, he has 18 points this year in 32 games to Edlers 23 in 33. Giroux is the team for philly, which is why they say no. Kesler and Edler are probably vans top OVERALL offense and defense players, so they say no.

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12-20-2011, 03:01 PM
  #103
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I ****ing love Giroux, he's a magician with the puck and can dangle like no tomorrow, but he is not the all-around player Kesler is. No question.

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12-20-2011, 03:02 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
There is no hole on the Canucks so large that trading Kesler does not open a bigger one.

Trading him is simply a non-starter unless some team offers something absolutely crazy (let's say for example that Boston wants to offer Seguin/Bergeron and Lucic) and there's no point discussing that.
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Originally Posted by GoTeamDom View Post
I disagree with the bolded statement. If the Canucks were to lose Kesler to injury much in the same way that Pitt has had to live with life without Crosby (or Malkin, or at times both), The Canucks would still be a contender for the cup. Perhaps not a favourite but not to consider them at least on par with the Sharks and Wings is doing a serious discredit to the rest of the roster.

That being said, the Canucks are clearly better, if not outright dominant, with him in the lineup. Trading him would require the Canucks to improve, not just simply replace, some the following things Kesler does well:

- Kill penalties
- Contribute to the #1 PP in the league over the last 1.5 years
- Anchor a 2nd line / Generate at least 75 goals for a 2nd line.
- Provide grit and physical play
- Perform during the playoffs

The Canucks have enough talent throughout the roster to take care of the PK, so I will strike that as a requirement for talent coming back in a trade.

Going back to my previous trade proposal of Green/Johansson for Kesler/Tanev, having a 2nd/3rd line centred by Hodgson and Johansson (think Cody Hodgson except with wheels, without the slapper and left-handed) would give the Canucks three legitimate scoring threats; the dropoff from replacing Kesler with Johansson won't be as great considering the skill of the wingers on the 2nd and 3rd lines. Think downgrading from 75pts to 50-60pts.

Mike Green is in a class of his own when it comes to generating offense. Replace Kesler on the PP with Burrows, Hansen or Higgins and Hamhuis with Green with I assure you that the PP will put up even greater numbers. Your 5-on-5 numbers will jump considerably too.

The only major factor you are losing out on is grit. Vancouver's GM will need to address this should he pull the trigger on trading Kesler.

So to summarize, Kesler/Tanev for Green/Johansson, PP+, Depth+, Offense up, PK even, grit -

I'd do it, but then again, you're not really losing by keeping Kesler either.
So you highlight five things Kesler does better than most players in the league, then advocate trading him in a deal that means a significant downgrade in four of them:
  • Yeah we have other players to kill penalties but we have few other players who do it nearly as well. Not enough that our PK wouldn't take a hit, and a major hit if someone else (Burrows for example) were injured.
  • No way is Marcus Johanson going to put up the kind of bonkers even strength numbers Kesler has in the last two years; maybe he makes the drop off less steep but there will be a dropoff anyway.
  • As you mentioned going from Kesler to Johanson is a huge downgrade when it comes to physical play.
  • Playoff performance.. do I really need to elaborate here? Kesler's game is tailor-made for the playoffs.

All to address weaknesses (offense from the defense, powerplay production) we don't even have. Is our #1 powerplay going to become even #1er?

The fact is that this deal addresses zero needs for the Canucks and opens up several new ones.

We are a very good team that stacks up against pretty much any other team in the league, the only way we could get better would be to have more players with qualities like Ryan Kesler.

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12-20-2011, 03:06 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
I like Kesler a lot but since when is he a " Bonafide #1 Center"? There's about 10 of those, tops In this league.
To be fair, the last 2 years he's been in the top 10 in Center scoring.

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12-20-2011, 03:08 PM
  #106
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No he's not... Tell me when Giroux wins a Selke and is an absolute monster at both ends of the ice, and a wrecking ball to boot.

Even if he was, Edler is FAR better than Carle, and that skews this trade MASSIVELY.
Giroux isn't a fair deal better than Kesler? Wow.... Giroux IS a beast on both ends and Is very capable of a selke and an art Ross. The difference between Kesler and Giroux isn't close.

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12-20-2011, 03:11 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Giroux isn't a fair deal better than Kesler? Wow.... Giroux IS a beast on both ends and Is very capable of a selke and an art Ross. The difference between Kesler and Giroux isn't close.
Where is his Selke if he is capable of one?

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12-20-2011, 03:11 PM
  #108
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I ****ing love Giroux, he's a magician with the puck and can dangle like no tomorrow, but he is not the all-around player Kesler is. No question.
Girouxs offensive advantage far out weighs kessels defensive advantage. I don't think you realize how good Giroux is defensively. He's the top PK guy on the team and flyers fans all said he was better defensively than Richards when Richards was there. And Richards IS/WAS at the time rated as good if not better defensively than Kesler the year he came 2nd by one point to Datsyuk for Selke.

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12-20-2011, 03:13 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Girouxs offensive advantage far out weighs kessels defensive advantage. I don't think you realize how good Giroux is defensively. He's the top PK guy on the team and flyers fans all said he was better defensively than Richards when Richards was there. And Richards IS/WAS at the time rated as good if not better defensively than Kesler the year he came 2nd by one point to Datsyuk for Selke.
Why are you talking about Kessel?

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12-20-2011, 03:13 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by keslehr View Post
Where is his Selke if he is capable of one?
Thee most daft statement I've ever seen.... I never said he WON a selke, I said he's capable. There's about 10 people each year capable but only 1 wins. Kesler has had about 4 seasons on Giroux, give it time.

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12-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #111
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Giroux is an entirely different type of player than Kesler. You can't tell me Giroux puts up Selke defense, I watch a lot of Philly games and that is certainly not the case. He is defensively aware but his strongest attribute is his puckhandling. Not his defense.

That said, I wouldn't do Kesler/Edler for Giroux/Carle. Carle would be on our second pairing, at best. We need a good RHS to play big minutes with Edler. Carle is not that man.

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12-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #112
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Why are you talking about Kessel?
No point talking to you, make a poll about whos the better more complete player, you'll be embarrassed.

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12-20-2011, 03:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
Giroux is an entirely different type of player than Kesler. You can't tell me Giroux puts up Selke defense, I watch a lot of Philly games and that is certainly not the case. He is defensively aware but his strongest attribute is his puckhandling. Not his defense.

That said, I wouldn't do Kesler/Edler for Giroux/Carle. Carle would be on our second pairing, at best. We need a good RHS to play big minutes with Edler. Carle is not that man.
I believe many would disagree with your statements on Giroux. But I agree with nicks saying no to the trade.

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12-20-2011, 03:17 PM
  #114
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No point talking to you, make a poll about whos the better more complete player, you'll be embarrassed.
He'd lose the poll because of the incredible anti-Canuck bias on HF... durrr

If you look closely, I never said Kesler WAS better than Giroux - I disagreed with your statement that Giroux is far better than him. They're roughly equal.

Until Giroux has a 90+ point season with elite, Selke-caliber defense, that will be the case.

And you did say Kessel.

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12-20-2011, 03:18 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
No point talking to you, make a poll about whos the better more complete player, you'll be embarrassed.
KESLER.

Not KESSEL.





Do you see the difference? I know they both wear blue, but seriously.

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12-20-2011, 03:22 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Girouxs offensive advantage far out weighs kessels defensive advantage. I don't think you realize how good Giroux is defensively. He's the top PK guy on the team and flyers fans all said he was better defensively than Richards when Richards was there. And Richards IS/WAS at the time rated as good if not better defensively than Kesler the year he came 2nd by one point to Datsyuk for Selke.
That's fine, and I agree with you that Giroux is a great player. But you don't make trades based on comparisons of individual assets.

What makes Kesler so valuable to the Canucks is exactly the type of player he is. We have an Art Ross/Hart calibre #1 center who's one of the best playmakers in the game and capable of running a top end PP. Kesler is the opposite of that. He's a gritty as hell, tough to play against, goal-scoring, shutdown center.

While Giroux may be a better player than Kesler, a Henrik-Kesler 1-2 provides the Canucks much better balance than a Henrik-Giroux 1-2. And it's pretty weird that a Hawks fan - one of several groups of fans criticizing the Canucks for not having enough grit/heart/toughness etc for playoff hockey would even suggest the Canucks deal their grittiest, toughest to play against, top-6 forward for a more skilled offensive player. I realize that Giroux isn't soft and he's good defensively, but Kesler still holds a big edge in this area of the game over Giroux.

This is why dealing Kesler at all makes no sense. He's the *perfect* center to play behind Henrik and brings the team everything they need and can't get from elsewhere on the roster.

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12-20-2011, 03:23 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by keslehr View Post
He'd lose the poll because of the incredible anti-Canuck bias on HF... durrr

If you look closely, I never said Kesler WAS better than Giroux - I disagreed with your statement that Giroux is far better than him. They're roughly equal.

Until Giroux has a 90+ point season with elite, Selke-caliber defense, that will be the case.

And you did say Kessel.
I did say Kessel, my bad. I never said far better, fair deal better

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12-20-2011, 03:28 PM
  #118
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That's fine, and I agree with you that Giroux is a great player. But you don't make trades based on comparisons of individual assets.

What makes Kesler so valuable to the Canucks is exactly the type of player he is. We have an Art Ross/Hart calibre #1 center who's one of the best playmakers in the game and capable of running a top end PP. Kesler is the opposite of that. He's a gritty as hell, tough to play against, goal-scoring, shutdown center.

While Giroux may be a better player than Kesler, a Henrik-Kesler 1-2 provides the Canucks much better balance than a Henrik-Giroux 1-2. And it's pretty weird that a Hawks fan - one of several groups of fans criticizing the Canucks for not having enough grit/heart/toughness etc for playoff hockey would even suggest the Canucks deal their grittiest, toughest to play against, top-6 forward for a more skilled offensive player. I realize that Giroux isn't soft and he's good defensively, but Kesler still holds a big edge in this area of the game over Giroux.

This is why dealing Kesler at all makes no sense. He's the *perfect* center to play behind Henrik and brings the team everything they need and can't get from elsewhere on the roster.
I believe Kesler is about as untouchable as it gets on our roster, but I'm just putting out a hypothetical.

In a purely hypothetical situation I would do Kesler for Letang. Letang and Edler would be a beastly pairing and they're both very young and could be the best defensive pairing Vancouver ever had.

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12-20-2011, 03:29 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
So you highlight five things Kesler does better than most players in the league, then advocate trading him in a deal that means a significant downgrade in four of them:
  • Yeah we have other players to kill penalties but we have few other players who do it nearly as well. Not enough that our PK wouldn't take a hit, and a major hit if someone else (Burrows for example) were injured.
  • No way is Marcus Johanson going to put up the kind of bonkers even strength numbers Kesler has in the last two years; maybe he makes the drop off less steep but there will be a dropoff anyway.
  • As you mentioned going from Kesler to Johanson is a huge downgrade when it comes to physical play.
  • Playoff performance.. do I really need to elaborate here? Kesler's game is tailor-made for the playoffs.

All to address weaknesses (offense from the defense, powerplay production) we don't even have. Is our #1 powerplay going to become even #1er?

The fact is that this deal addresses zero needs for the Canucks and opens up several new ones.

We are a very good team that stacks up against pretty much any other team in the league, the only way we could get better would be to have more players with qualities like Ryan Kesler.
I don't disagree with what you are saying here, but you make it sound like there is only one way to build a championship calibre team. That is to load up on gritty, two-way players and hope for a few of them to catch fire in the playoffs. More Claude Lemieux's and Mark Messiers. And trading Kesler would be going against this proven strategy.

At the same time, I personally feel that there are other ways to go about building a championship. You can still field a dominant team by going all offense, rolling three lines and playing solid two-way hockey throughout your lineup. I highly doubt, if the Canucks and Bruins were to meet in the finals again, that the Bruins would be able to get away with manhandling the Canucks again. Though the media slant was made that the Canucks are divers and pansies who don't defend them, I doubt the Bruins would walk away unpunished every time they threw an extra punch at a Sedin. Speed-bagging Daniel Sedin after the whistle would get Marchand at least 2 mins for roughing and the Canucks would make them pay on the PP (unless Tim Thomas has anything to say about it again).

Like many of you have said, there is no reason to trade Kesler, and this current makeup of the team has not proven NOT to work yet, so you wouldn't ever see this deal go down this season. The blowback would just be too great. But in the hypothetical, I think getting Mike Green and Marcus Johansson would be a good return value-wise, and you can build around them as part of your core. You'd have to tweak your wings to add more size and grit and perhaps your bottom pairing would need to be bigger.

I am just saying in the event of a shakeup, Kesler, IMO is not as untouchable as you may think. This is my personal view, but I am not sold on Kesler as a de facto leader of THIS Canucks team. I think Henrik was the obvious choice for captain, and I would probably point to Bieksa and Malholtra as focal points to rally around before Kesler, given relative age and perceived maturity. I am not slagging Kesler and I am glad he is on my team for such a reasonable rate; I just don't buy into the legend of RK17 as much as most of my fellow Canuck fans do. He is not Jonathan Toews and that is OK. Kesler will probably be an NHL captain down the road. I personally don't think it will be in Vancouver.

As for the proposal with the Caps, Mike Green would probably not be my first choice of their roster. Instead I'd go for John Carlson.


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12-20-2011, 03:47 PM
  #120
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Where is his Selke if he is capable of one?
What a dumb statement to make. Giroux is only 23 years old, and even this year he(Giroux) is more a of a Selke candidate then Kesler with +7 and 39 points in 28 games. Kesler isn't even a ppg. Even if Giroux misses a few weeks, he's still on pace to fniish better than Kesler. Though I can see judging by your username, you are completely unbiased(lol) on the issue, and I'm sure everyone is valuing your opinion high as a result.

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12-20-2011, 03:50 PM
  #121
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I don't disagree with what you are saying here...
There aren't a lot of championship teams, and it's pretty easy to see the parallels among the few that we see every few years.

Originally you wanted to deal Kesler for a less physical player who is also a worse two-way player (and worse offensive player), with the incentive being that we get a defenseman who is all offense. Nothing about that jumps out at me as a hallmark of how Stanley Cup Winners are built.

I'll grant you that Carlson is a better fit than Green and while I'd love to add a player like that to the organization, is the difference between Carlson and the blueliners we already have as large as the difference between Kesler and Johansson? The Canucks simply cannot trade away Ryan Kesler in a deal that makes them worse right now.

The best case scenario in a Ryan Kesler trade (again, rejecting the scenario where some GM loses his mind and gives up two players who are each nearly as good as Kesler) is that we're making a trade just for the sake of it.. and Kesler's skill set is too rare to make that trade.

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12-20-2011, 03:51 PM
  #122
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I believe Kesler is about as untouchable as it gets on our roster, but I'm just putting out a hypothetical.

In a purely hypothetical situation I would do Kesler for Letang. Letang and Edler would be a beastly pairing and they're both very young and could be the best defensive pairing Vancouver ever had.
I understand that you're trying to get a value of Kesler more than anything. I wouldn't do Kesler for Letang unless Kesler wants out. IMO Kesler is more valuable to this team than Letang would be.

As long as Kesler is happy as a Canuck and doesn't hurt this team's chemistry on or off the ice, he is simply a player you don't move. And of course there are no indications of any problems with him here.

I see him and Burrows as our "other twins" ... Giving us all the intangibles in our top-6 the twins don't, making our forward lines that much more complete. I don't see Gillis even considering breaking that up.

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12-20-2011, 03:51 PM
  #123
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What a dumb statement to make. Giroux is only 23 years old, and even this year he(Giroux) is more a of a Selke candidate then Kesler with +7 and 39 points in 28 games. Kesler isn't even a ppg. Even if Giroux misses a few weeks, he's still on pace to fniish better than Kesler. Though I can see judging by your username, you are completely unbiased(lol) on the issue, and I'm sure everyone is valuing your opinion high as a result.
While points aren't the end all be all for the selke ( they shouldn't matter as much as they do anyway) I agree Giroux is a better selke candidate than Kesler this year thus far. He's the top PK guy on his respective team and has one of the most PK minutes in the league with more takeaways and better plus minus.

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12-20-2011, 03:52 PM
  #124
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What a dumb statement to make. Giroux is only 23 years old, and even this year he(Giroux) is more a of a Selke candidate then Kesler with +7 and 39 points in 28 games. Kesler isn't even a ppg. Even if Giroux misses a few weeks, he's still on pace to fniish better than Kesler. Though I can see judging by your username, you are completely unbiased(lol) on the issue, and I'm sure everyone is valuing your opinion high as a result.
Kesler has 24pts in 28 GP with a +8. He missed the first 7 games due to recovery from hip surgery. Until about 14 games ago (first match up against Ottawa), he was struggling to skate and play because he came back too fast. He has put up 17 points in his last 14 games

He also gets second line minutes in Vancouver, not 1st line like Giroux.

Giroux is better offensively and is naturally a winger, Kesler is better defensively which is a strong attribute for a center.

Looking up the stats, Giroux plays about 21-27 minutes a night on average (from the flyers website. aside from his last two games)

Kesler plays 18-21 mins a nigt.

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12-20-2011, 03:56 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post
Kesler has 24pts in 28 GP with a +8. He missed the first 7 games due to recovery from hip surgery.

He also gets second line minutes in Vancouver, not 1st line like Giroux.

Giroux is better offensively and is naturally a winger, Kesler is better defensively which is a strong attribute for a center.

Looking up the stats, Giroux plays about 21-27 minutes a night on average (from the flyers website. aside from his last two games)

Kesler plays 18-21 mins a nigt.
That's because Giroux is better. He is top PP, Top PK, top 5 on 5, and he's constantly going against the oppositions top shutdown line, Kesler cannot make those claims.

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