No the real problem is that everyone is basing their arguments on one ridiculously simplified aspect of goaltending like 'he should challenge more' or 'why is he always on his belly'.
It's understandable because you hear from a lot of the announcers on TV who have no idea about goaltending - guys like Healy and Pang are goalies from a whole different era.
Then you guys are just arguing in circles based on assumptions you've made about the position. You've missed a lot of underlying problems about Luongo's early play, just like lots of us miss lots of underlying problems with the team as a whole because we focus on just Bieksa or something like that.
So because you're always arguing on a very surface level, neither point can ever really be dismissed and it just goes on forever.
No the real problem is that everyone is basing their arguments on one ridiculously simplified aspect of goaltending like 'he should challenge more' or 'why is he always on his belly'.
It's understandable because you hear from a lot of the announcers on TV who have no idea about goaltending - guys like Healy and Pang are goalies from a whole different era.
Then you guys are just arguing in circles based on assumptions you've made about the position. You've missed a lot of underlying problems about Luongo's early play, just like lots of us miss lots of underlying problems with the team as a whole because we focus on just Bieksa or something like that.
So because you're always arguing on a very surface level, neither point can ever really be dismissed and it just goes on forever.
If you are seeing trends in the way goals are going in, there is usually a reason for it. If he's flopping onto his belly with regularity, thats not a good thing. Just as Bieksa swimming around isn't a good way to defend. It might not be the direct reason we are losing games but it's still a reason to be critical.
No the real problem is that everyone is basing their arguments on one ridiculously simplified aspect of goaltending like 'he should challenge more' or 'why is he always on his belly'.
It's understandable because you hear from a lot of the announcers on TV who have no idea about goaltending - guys like Healy and Pang are goalies from a whole different era.
Then you guys are just arguing in circles based on assumptions you've made about the position. You've missed a lot of underlying problems about Luongo's early play, just like lots of us miss lots of underlying problems with the team as a whole because we focus on just Bieksa or something like that.
So because you're always arguing on a very surface level, neither point can ever really be dismissed and it just goes on forever.
It's impossible to get into a discussion in this forum on more then a very surface level when I'm constantly up against a few people that won't allow for any critique of Luongo's game. It's hard to get into a discussion about why Luongo ends up on his belly when people either won't admit that it's any kind of problem or bombard the board with "ya well, we didn't score any goals in the finals".
FYI I'm not ignorant on the subject either. If you would like to get off your perch at any time and have a reasonable conversation about goaltending, I'm game. The goalie I play with now is an instructor for a local goaltending school and he's been a student and guest instructor at Allaires schools. I'm also in the same fantasy football league as Chris Mason. They tend to be pretty good sources of info.
It's impossible to get into a discussion in this forum on more then a very surface level when I'm constantly up against a few people that won't allow for any critique of Luongo's game. It's hard to get into a discussion about why Luongo ends up on his belly when people either won't admit that it's any kind of problem or bombard the board with "ya well, we didn't score any goals in the finals".
FYI I'm not ignorant on the subject either. If you would like to get off your perch at any time and have a reasonable conversation about goaltending, I'm game. The goalie I play with now is an instructor for a local goaltending school and he's been a student and guest instructor at Allaires schools. I'm also in the same fantasy football league as Chris Mason. They tend to be pretty good sources of info.
Right, but what do you want to talk about with the kick-save-to-belly issue? It's been discussed, and I've ever offered the technical explanation for it. It happens too much when he's reading the play poorly and reacts late with a desperation save -- the way he used it against Detroit on that rebound was textbook. A perfect execution. It's the only way he extends his pad: if the guy gets it up from that close in traffic you tip your hat.
So what's the discussion? I have no problem admitting Luongo has bad stretches when he follows the play too slowly and looks poor -- and when a big/ positional goaltender is making bad reads, it's a lot uglier than it is for other guys. That's life. But nobody ever leaves it at that -- they always want to extrapolate it to mean he'll never win in the playoffs or he's a choker or we should be playing Schneider.
It's just a dumb circular argument that's been going on in these threads for about 6 months now, with no discernible traction. Luongo has some issues in his game and I think he works to fix them. People may disagree on that, but I offered on the last page three very specific instances that I think he's worked on this past summer that are, to me, more interesting than rehashing the all around most pathetic 7-game performance I've ever seen from a team.
Right, but what do you want to talk about with the kick-save-to-belly issue? It's been discussed, and I've ever offered the technical explanation for it. It happens too much when he's reading the play poorly and reacts late with a desperation save -- the way he used it against Detroit on that rebound was textbook. A perfect execution. It's the only way he extends his pad: if the guy gets it up from that close in traffic you tip your hat.
So what's the discussion? I have no problem admitting Luongo has bad stretches when he follows the play too slowly and looks poor -- and when a big/ positional goaltender is making bad reads, it's a lot uglier than it is for other guys. That's life. But nobody ever leaves it at that -- they always want to extrapolate it to mean he'll never win in the playoffs or he's a choker or we should be playing Schneider.
It's just a dumb circular argument that's been going on in these threads for about 6 months now, with no discernible traction. Luongo has some issues in his game and I think he works to fix them. People may disagree on that, but I offered on the last page three very specific instances that I think he's worked on this past summer that are, to me, more interesting than rehashing the all around most pathetic 7-game performance I've ever seen from a team.
I agree with everything you wrote. I'm not walking it around in circles though. My post was that Luongo needs to keep getting better at battling through traffic because the refs don't see all the contact in front and there is always a chance they put there whistles away in the playoffs. This was the point I was making in regards to Salo getting pushed into him last game.
Instead of that leading to a discussion about what Luongo and the team can do about this, the conversation turned to how Luongo is playing great and should be left alone. I didn't even bring up the belly thing, someone was taking a shot at me for bringing it up in the past because he made a save with it.
I'm curious that you think he can do with the contact. Should he be pushing back? Do goalies practice anchoring themselves on the post to make it harder to get pushed into the net?
I'm curious that you think he can do with the contact. Should he be pushing back? Do goalies practice anchoring themselves on the post to make it harder to get pushed into the net?
I honestly think for most of the past year it's been less of a problem than it had been because he's playing deeper in his net. I actually hate when he pushes to the top of the crease in traffic and starts bobbing his head around because it usually opens up holes on one side of him for a seeing-eye shot that gets through. I'd prefer him to get a bit lower and try to get a sightline through to the point and stay in a strong blocking position. It's a pretty tough balance.
He should get more calls if he stays in his net, but the Canucks don't seem to draw a lot of goalie interference penalties.
When the play really is in his crease I'd mostly just like to see him not embellish at all on scoring chances. If it's not a real scoring chance and he can draw a penalty, sure, let the refs know you're getting bumped, but otherwise don't try to draw a call and rely on the ref to bail you out or you're at their mercy. On the play last night, I think it was just really awkward because Bertuzzi pushed Salo in but Salo kind of slowly stumbled and really put all of his weight on Luongo, who did try to get up to make a save but clearly had no idea where the puck was.
I'm not sure there are many goalies in the league that battle effectively through a lot of traffic. There are a few guys like Thomas that will initiate/battle with opposing players (slash, yell, punch) and will scream at the refs -- and they seem to get more calls... so many LUongo should whine to the refs more instead of turning the other cheek? Strangely, for all the flack the Canucks get, I don't think they complain to the officials nearly enough. Except Kesler. He's got that part down
That all sounds good to me. What about the play where he seems to get pushed into the net? It should really be called when guys on the other team are pushing his pad with their stick and he ends up in the net, but it rarely is. I was told he needs to "post up" I'm guessing it means anchoring himself on the post with his foot?
That all sounds good to me. What about the play where he seems to get pushed into the net? It should really be called when guys on the other team are pushing his pad with their stick and he ends up in the net, but it rarely is. I was told he needs to "post up" I'm guessing it means anchoring himself on the post with his foot?
Good question. I've always assumed that's what it means when I've read it, but I can't say I've ever specifically asked about it. I have noticed that some other goaltenders do a good job of hooking their ankle around the post (so the outside of their skate is outside the post) and then sealing the post with their stick flat to the ice so that pucks don't squeeze through on a wraparound or when someone is jamming at their pad.
I do think Luongo's work around the posts is probably the weakest part of his game. He is a big guy, which hurts (Rinne has similar problems) but he does tend to get a bit lazy about sealing off the post and looks really awkward freezing pucks off his pads in that position.
It's been better this year, I think, and Kevin Woodley (@KevinIsInGoal) has noted on a few of those traffic/bad angle type goals that he is reverting back to his old form and not using his leg/stick properly against the post.
This is the move I've been talking about Luongo using rather than going right to his stomach. It definitely takes more time but imo for every one that he's late on there will be more that he can save that are high and he isn't out of position afterwards.
I have noticed him doing this more. Whether it was a confidence issue or a technical one, the more he can stay off his belly the better imo.
I posted this now because it's the first highlight I've found that paints a clear picture of what I'm talking about.
Right, but what do you want to talk about with the kick-save-to-belly issue? It's been discussed, and I've ever offered the technical explanation for it. It happens too much when he's reading the play poorly and reacts late with a desperation save -- the way he used it against Detroit on that rebound was textbook. A perfect execution. It's the only way he extends his pad: if the guy gets it up from that close in traffic you tip your hat.
So what's the discussion? I have no problem admitting Luongo has bad stretches when he follows the play too slowly and looks poor -- and when a big/ positional goaltender is making bad reads, it's a lot uglier than it is for other guys. That's life. But nobody ever leaves it at that -- they always want to extrapolate it to mean he'll never win in the playoffs or he's a choker or we should be playing Schneider.
It's just a dumb circular argument that's been going on in these threads for about 6 months now, with no discernible traction. Luongo has some issues in his game and I think he works to fix them. People may disagree on that, but I offered on the last page three very specific instances that I think he's worked on this past summer that are, to me, more interesting than rehashing the all around most pathetic 7-game performance I've ever seen from a team.
I've referenced your posts a couple of times but let's face it - they just get flat out ignored.
Scurr, my apologies if my last post seemed directed at you specifically - it was not. But when Proto and I have explained the reasons for some of these things and it seems like noone reads it, it's just frustrating.
As for fighting your way through traffic. If it is crease-front traffic, you basically have two options. You can crowd the screener or you can back off and block. Lu seems to be playing it the former way but if you are going to do this you have to expect contact. However, the player also has to concentrate on tipping the puck. So in order to 'battle' you just have to get the best initial read you can on the puck and then offer the most blocking surface you can as close as you can to the screening player. The actual 'battle' is mostly how you look around, above or below the player to see the puck.
I think this is what Lu lacks in terms of 'battle' - if he would spend more time getting that first read on the puck, set play screen shots are actually easy to stop.
Being pushed into the crease - there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If a forward wants to push you in, he is going to do so. Remember that pads are made for sliding - if you get pushed, you're going to slide in.
You really don't want to hook your leg on the outside of the post. This gives the player something to aim for and the likelihood of having a puck bounce off your leg and go in increases. This is why we're taught to keep everything inside the post. Also, if you get pushed, it just means you're going to rotate around the fixed leg - your other leg will end up inside the goal.
In terms of posting up, whoever told you might have been referring to the VH position, or Vertical-Horizontal. This might be slightly harder to be pushed from because you're on one blade, with one leg up and jammed against the post and the other leg down in a butterfly position. However, this position is only useful in close-in situations where the player is moving laterally. If a guy is coming straight in or even at any angle other than parallel to the goal line, it's an inefficient blocking move for that situation.
Think about this. If you were a player, not even a goalie, on your knees or lying in the crease - could you keep a guy from pushing you in?
I think the real problem here is finding the puck in his massive feet. He needs to work on getting his glove on the puck and covering it. Basically the only technique that will help you in a crease crash situation is to clear it, or keep it front of you and ahead of the goal line as you're pushed in. The easiest way to do that is to maintain your puck focus and pounce on the puck as soon as possible. Refs will blow the whistle if you've covered the puck before getting bowled into the net.
What it comes down to is focus. I think Lu is so good at most aspects of the game that he ignores some of the little things.
This is the move I've been talking about Luongo using rather than going right to his stomach. It definitely takes more time but imo for every one that he's late on there will be more that he can save that are high and he isn't out of position afterwards.
I have noticed him doing this more. Whether it was a confidence issue or a technical one, the more he can stay off his belly the better imo.
I posted this now because it's the first highlight I've found that paints a clear picture of what I'm talking about.
This is what's known as a backside recovery. From a butterfly position, you rotate to square yourself to the puck, pick up the back leg and push yourself into position without getting up completely.
In the past Lu has played with a collapsing defence so he's always had time to what we call 'recover' to his feet. With our current transition game, there is not as much time or defensive coverage. He was being forced to make more scramble saves and his skating deficiencies were being exposed.
Basically Lu could not physically perform this move prior to Melanson's arrival last season. This is why I am down on Allaire and Clarke's work with Lu. In years of coaching him, they appear to have just continually worked on his strengths. It is criminal that he hasn't learned some of this skating when it was popularized as far back as when MAF (Fleury) so let's say around 2001-ish.
Also, for a guy who has amazing reflexes, IMO their emphasis on blocking gives him a crutch to lean on when he isn't confident or reading the play well.
Melanson has forced him to work on his skating, and he is improving in this area. Considering it might be the only deficient part of his game, I firmly believe he can be even better than he is now.
That's why to me Lu is an underdog. He has done so much in this league with so little. His size is no longer a big advantage because every goalie is 6'2"+. Basically any young goalie coming into the league in the last 5-8 years has come in with a better physical and technical toolset.
He's really just had a knack for stopping the puck, a crazy work ethic and total determination. What's not to love about that?
I've referenced your posts a couple of times but let's face it - they just get flat out ignored.
Scurr, my apologies if my last post seemed directed at you specifically - it was not. But when Proto and I have explained the reasons for some of these things and it seems like noone reads it, it's just frustrating.
As for fighting your way through traffic. If it is crease-front traffic, you basically have two options. You can crowd the screener or you can back off and block. Lu seems to be playing it the former way but if you are going to do this you have to expect contact. However, the player also has to concentrate on tipping the puck. So in order to 'battle' you just have to get the best initial read you can on the puck and then offer the most blocking surface you can as close as you can to the screening player. The actual 'battle' is mostly how you look around, above or below the player to see the puck.
I think this is what Lu lacks in terms of 'battle' - if he would spend more time getting that first read on the puck, set play screen shots are actually easy to stop.
Being pushed into the crease - there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If a forward wants to push you in, he is going to do so. Remember that pads are made for sliding - if you get pushed, you're going to slide in.
You really don't want to hook your leg on the outside of the post. This gives the player something to aim for and the likelihood of having a puck bounce off your leg and go in increases. This is why we're taught to keep everything inside the post. Also, if you get pushed, it just means you're going to rotate around the fixed leg - your other leg will end up inside the goal.
In terms of posting up, whoever told you might have been referring to the VH position, or Vertical-Horizontal. This might be slightly harder to be pushed from because you're on one blade, with one leg up and jammed against the post and the other leg down in a butterfly position. However, this position is only useful in close-in situations where the player is moving laterally. If a guy is coming straight in or even at any angle other than parallel to the goal line, it's an inefficient blocking move for that situation.
Think about this. If you were a player, not even a goalie, on your knees or lying in the crease - could you keep a guy from pushing you in?
I think the real problem here is finding the puck in his massive feet. He needs to work on getting his glove on the puck and covering it. Basically the only technique that will help you in a crease crash situation is to clear it, or keep it front of you and ahead of the goal line as you're pushed in. The easiest way to do that is to maintain your puck focus and pounce on the puck as soon as possible. Refs will blow the whistle if you've covered the puck before getting bowled into the net.
What it comes down to is focus. I think Lu is so good at most aspects of the game that he ignores some of the little things.
Good post. I'd read about about the VH technique and seen it referenced, but that makes more sense when you explain it that way.
As I said before, I actually dislike when Luongo really challenges the screens unless it's just 1 or 2 bodies and he's going to get a quick read on the pointshot. He's too often caught looking the wrong way over the shoulder of a defender -- at the very least I wouldn't mind seeing him a bit lower when he's looking so that he can get into a better blocking position when the shot inevitably comes through.
Interesting bit about the skating, too. Even Price starts to fall forward after he makes the recovery, but the timing of the save gives so much less for the player to shoot for -- Price basically takes away the bottom 40% of the net, rather than maybe 20% like Luongo does.
To be fair I think after his shaky start/bad reads, Luongo has started to make better "recovery" saves and seems to be sliding around on his knees to stay a bit bigger when he doesn't have time to get back to his feet. I like this change a lot.
Obviously you both have very good insight that I missed in the mess that is this thread. Thanks for taking the time.
I don't really know that much about goaltending, which is why I bug people that do sometimes. It's kind of like trying to critique a QB in football when you don't know what making a read on a route would be like. Not very easy.
So I ask a lot of questions, do some reading, and try the best I can to remove the emotional part of watching goalies. Trust me, there are some nights when I am red faced and not so happy with Luongo, but that's part of being a fan.
One thing I also like to do when the Canucks score is wonder what I'd think if it was Luongo in net. Even if it's a nice goal, would I be annoyed he didn't get back across the net to save Henrik after he and Daniel flung the puck across the entire zone twice against Minnesota? Probably. But when the Sedins did that it felt like a beautiful, unstoppable play.
Such is life for a goalie I guess. I'd certainly never want to be one
I am going to say this again, We always blame the forwards for not Scoring against Boston in the SCF, but how come Boston is doing that to every team right now, not just us. When they play any upper ranked teams in the east, it is always a blowout and a shutout by Boston, 6-0 right now against Florida...
Despite this people will continue to defend Luongo by pushing the blame on the offense.
You can't blame Luongo for our perimeter forwards being terrified of going near the Boston net, and taking a whole bunch of shots from the outside with no traffic at all which only padded the shot totals.
But you can blame him for letting in goals he should have saved and breaking down and losing his focus in Boston. Plenty of blame to go around but Luongo could've been a lot better and given us a better chance in several games.
I am going to say this again, We always blame the forwards for not Scoring against Boston in the SCF, but how come Boston is doing that to every team right now, not just us. When they play any upper ranked teams in the east, it is always a blowout and a shutout by Boston, 6-0 right now against Florida...
Despite this people will continue to defend Luongo by pushing the blame on the offense.
Wouldn't that seem to (at least partially) exonerate Luongo, since many other goalies are also getting lit up by the Bruins?
I've referenced your posts a couple of times but let's face it - they just get flat out ignored.
Scurr, my apologies if my last post seemed directed at you specifically - it was not. But when Proto and I have explained the reasons for some of these things and it seems like noone reads it, it's just frustrating.
As for fighting your way through traffic. If it is crease-front traffic, you basically have two options. You can crowd the screener or you can back off and block. Lu seems to be playing it the former way but if you are going to do this you have to expect contact. However, the player also has to concentrate on tipping the puck. So in order to 'battle' you just have to get the best initial read you can on the puck and then offer the most blocking surface you can as close as you can to the screening player. The actual 'battle' is mostly how you look around, above or below the player to see the puck.
I think this is what Lu lacks in terms of 'battle' - if he would spend more time getting that first read on the puck, set play screen shots are actually easy to stop.
Being pushed into the crease - there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If a forward wants to push you in, he is going to do so. Remember that pads are made for sliding - if you get pushed, you're going to slide in.
You really don't want to hook your leg on the outside of the post. This gives the player something to aim for and the likelihood of having a puck bounce off your leg and go in increases. This is why we're taught to keep everything inside the post. Also, if you get pushed, it just means you're going to rotate around the fixed leg - your other leg will end up inside the goal.
In terms of posting up, whoever told you might have been referring to the VH position, or Vertical-Horizontal. This might be slightly harder to be pushed from because you're on one blade, with one leg up and jammed against the post and the other leg down in a butterfly position. However, this position is only useful in close-in situations where the player is moving laterally. If a guy is coming straight in or even at any angle other than parallel to the goal line, it's an inefficient blocking move for that situation.
Think about this. If you were a player, not even a goalie, on your knees or lying in the crease - could you keep a guy from pushing you in?
I think the real problem here is finding the puck in his massive feet. He needs to work on getting his glove on the puck and covering it. Basically the only technique that will help you in a crease crash situation is to clear it, or keep it front of you and ahead of the goal line as you're pushed in. The easiest way to do that is to maintain your puck focus and pounce on the puck as soon as possible. Refs will blow the whistle if you've covered the puck before getting bowled into the net.
What it comes down to is focus. I think Lu is so good at most aspects of the game that he ignores some of the little things.
You sound like the goalie on my team. Do you still play?
Wouldn't that seem to (at least partially) exonerate Luongo, since many other goalies are also getting lit up by the Bruins?
Except for the fact that he wasn't lit up for the first two games and for game 5. That shows that he can be just as good if he played right. But then he didn't show up for 4/5 games after we had a 2-0 lead.
Except for the fact that he wasn't lit up for the first two games and for game 5. That shows that he can be just as good if he played right. But then he didn't show up for 4/5 games after we had a 2-0 lead.
So if he got lit up in every game that would somehow be better?
Why does Boston's great GAA absolve the Canucks' offense of their struggles but their league leading G/G means nothing when it comes to goaltending?
So if he got lit up in every game that would somehow be better?
Why does Boston's great GAA absolve the Canucks' offense of their struggles but their league leading G/G means nothing when it comes to goaltending?
No it wouldn't be better but at least it indicates that they were just overall better.... For him to play well in 3 of those games and be a no show for the rest it is his fault for not putting in good effort.
I am going to say this again, We always blame the forwards for not Scoring against Boston in the SCF, but how come Boston is doing that to every team right now, not just us. When they play any upper ranked teams in the east, it is always a blowout and a shutout by Boston, 6-0 right now against Florida...
Despite this people will continue to defend Luongo by pushing the blame on the offense.
so. because no one else can score on the bruins and no one else can consistently stop the bruins from scoring.
luongo is at blame more than the forwards.
wow now that you put it like that i can't help but agree.
