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Old
12-21-2011, 08:42 AM
  #101
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I seriously believe that the team was building a very competent defense game prior to the injured players returning.

I see Enstrom as being potentially the most 'tradable' asset on the team right now. This isn't a knock against him as much as the others that have improved around him and stepped up.

Plus Enstrom is someone that other teams would want.

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12-21-2011, 08:45 AM
  #102
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Beyak made some good comments on the big show this morning. He mentioned starting with Washington teams have figured out the Jets break out pattern and have taken it away.....our North South game was driven by bringing it out up the boards in our zone and gaining speed through the neutral zone and the oppositions D's have adjusted and taken it away via the aggressive forecheck and pinch. Really they have gotten on us early and taken away our first option. It’s our turn to modify our attach and add a plan B option

refs were very good last night

I mentioned it earlier but to punctuate the point this team has really fed off Little for the past 18 games or so, he is the straw that has stirred the drink. Brian has made the first line go and they have been one of the hotter lines in the NHL over that stretch and we really missed him last night.

I highly doubt the team will have much of a practice today with 3 games in 4 days guys?

I am not trying to rewrite history here but if I recall correctly Toby got off to a very slow start this year by his standards (and compared to the hype) but he had picked it up and was playing really well in the games before he was injured. When Hainsey went down we really leaned on Toby and he was very good for us and was getting close to 30 minutes a game right before he went down. As I recall most of the skeptics were coming around and warming up to Toby at that point in time. I realize he was oversold a bit compared to how well he has played to this point but lets let this play out. Remember Little was getting blasted early in the year as well. I am going to buy low here and say if we make the playoffs Toby will be a factor especially on the PP.

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12-21-2011, 08:45 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WinnipegFalcon View Post
I had a terrible older couple sitting behind me. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against seniors, since I am verging on that age category myself. But these two were morons. If you can imagine two 60+ year olds yelling 'shoot!' every play, and 'come on guys', and commenting how 'our team skates like 7 year olds', but at the same time NOT KNOWING WHAT ICING IS, or what dumping and chasing is, and not recognizing line changes...'why didn't he get that? wow this team is terrible...' Man, it was annoying.
I think they should have a section reserved for these type of people. The same way the Bombers have a no alcohol section. Not sure what you would call this one though.....

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12-21-2011, 08:49 AM
  #104
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I was at the game last night and while I don't think Enstrom had his best performance, I'm shaking my head at the typical "Trade a player after he has one bad game" reaction here.

We were CRYING for Enstrom to return, and once he returns and has one game that's not Norris-calibre we throw him under the bus?

Whatev, I'll just look forward to the thread talking about how great he is after next game.

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12-21-2011, 08:57 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Beyak made some good comments on the big show this morning. He mentioned starting with Washington teams have figured out the Jets break out pattern and have taken it away.....our North South game was driven by bringing it out up the boards in our zone and gaining speed through the neutral zone and the oppositions D's have adjusted and taken it away via the aggressive forecheck and pinch. Really they have gotten on us early and taken away our first option. It’s our turn to modify our attach and add a plan B option

refs were very good last night

I mentioned it earlier but to punctuate the point this team has really fed off Little for the past 18 games or so, he is the straw that has stirred the drink. Brian has made the first line go and they have been one of the hotter lines in the NHL over that stretch and we really missed him last night.

I highly doubt the team will have much of a practice today with 3 games in 4 days guys?

I am not trying to rewrite history here but if I recall correctly Toby got off to a very slow start this year by his standards (and compared to the hype) but he had picked it up and was playing really well in the games before he was injured. When Hainsey went down we really leaned on Toby and he was very good for us and was getting close to 30 minutes a game right before he went down. As I recall most of the skeptics were coming around and warming up to Toby at that point in time. I realize he was oversold a bit compared to how well he has played to this point but lets let this play out. Remember Little was getting blasted early in the year as well. I am going to buy low here and say if we make the playoffs Toby will be a factor especially on the PP.
Nice, someone actually remembers that!

I won't get into this discussion, I just want to say... God it's idiotic to shout for a Toby trade when he has a sub par game after being out 20 games with a broken collarbone. There is a reason he was a consensus top 15 defender on these boards. And about the Toby for Helm and Ericsson, do we or Detroit provide the lube? Cause if we do, then the trade is just terrible.

And seriously? The opposition have figured him out? Yeah, people never took the body on him earlier...

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12-21-2011, 09:01 AM
  #106
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^^^ Of course ps241 remembers. He remembers everything. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
They really miss Little up the middle out there. Burmistrov isn't at all suited for a #1 centre spot right now. Hope Little's foot heals quickly.

Regarding Enstrom; he has high level skills but is tiny. I could see them trading this player eventually. He is a marketable asset, would garner plenty in return. He plays an east/west game on a team that both wants to and is built to push the puck north. Obviously Kulda and Flood are a downgrade skillwise but I actually preferred our transition game with them back there. They at least pushed the puck north consistently and quickly; the team is trying to play too fancy a game now. Some of us happen to prefer a more physical brand of d-man as well; can't help but go back to constantly wondering if Enstrom brings the required size back there on a team that wants to be difficult to play against; he really gets pushed around out front and in the corners.

A dream of mine would be to see him moved to Detroit in exchange for hometown Helm and Jonathan Ericsson. Call me a heretic all you wish.

I am not seeing him getting knocked around that much really. He pins his guy in the corner more often then not and when he gets pinned he still manages to get body position on the guy.
-There was a play in the ANA game where he pinned Perry against the boards and he either knocked the puck away or a teammate came right in and took it away and I swear I'm the only one that noticed this.
-There were a couple plays like this last night.
-There was a 2on1 last night that Buff caused and Enstrom had to cover for him and the Isles never even got a shot off. But in return, Enstrom made a bad pinch and Buff was the only one back. Didn't stop a scoring chance.
-I think Enstrom is being a little to aggressive right now and it's causing him to get caught at the other team's blueline. Other then that, he's been fine.

My god that is an awful trade. That would be Waddell-esque. We wouldn't have a legitimate PP anymore.

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12-21-2011, 09:08 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcanadian View Post
I was at the game last night and while I don't think Enstrom had his best performance, I'm shaking my head at the typical "Trade a player after he has one bad game" reaction here.

We were CRYING for Enstrom to return, and once he returns and has one game that's not Norris-calibre we throw him under the bus?

Whatev, I'll just look forward to the thread talking about how great he is after next game.
It isn't necessarily a "trade a player after a bad game" line of thought to expect that management will likely eventually make a move to put their own stamp upon the team, to change the chemistry up a bit, whether they decided to move Enstrom or someone else. Even Noel alluded the team chemistry change of late in his post game comments last night.

Not everyone was crying for Enstrom to return either. Nor is anyone throwing him under the bus AFAIK. I'm personally ambivalent as to whether or not they keep him, but given his talent and contract status, and that new management are in charge, it is logical to expect that eventually some changes to the team will be made, to expect that the possibility of personnel moves increases at a time when injured players return to the lineup and when management is more able to gauge exactly where it is that they stand versus what they'd like to be as a team, and that those changes (if any) will come from assets that will garner a good return.

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12-21-2011, 09:15 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
My god that is an awful trade. That would be Waddell-esque. We wouldn't have a legitimate PP anymore.
We had a legitimate pp during the period when Enstrom was injured, not league leading by any means, but no worse than at current.

Helm would increase overall team speed considerably. He is a great pk player and is probably one of the most underrated forwards in the league. Ericsson would represent a considerable size advantage versus the tiny Enstrom. His size makes the D more difficult to play against.

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12-21-2011, 09:22 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
We had a legitimate pp during the period when Enstrom was injured, not league leading by any means, but no worse than at current.

Helm would increase overall team speed considerably. He is a great pk player and is probably one of the most underrated forwards in the league. Ericsson would represent a considerable size advantage versus the tiny Enstrom. His size makes the D more difficult to play against.
No. It was extremely inconsistent. And we're 1/2 on the PP with Enström, with him assisting on the goal.

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12-21-2011, 09:29 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcanadian View Post
I was at the game last night and while I don't think Enstrom had his best performance, I'm shaking my head at the typical "Trade a player after he has one bad game" reaction here.

We were CRYING for Enstrom to return, and once he returns and has one game that's not Norris-calibre we throw him under the bus?
I didn't say he had a bad game. I am saying he is a tradeable asset. Plain and simple.

The defense was tight and doing great things without him. It also helps our AHL issues and may get us an offensive helper that we need.

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12-21-2011, 09:31 AM
  #111
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I get that Atlanta fans don't want to see a core piece of their old team traded, but it will happen eventually, whether it is Enstrom or someone else. Given the current make-up of the team, not sure who else they'd consider moving really, if management wanted to make a change to team chemistry and to put their own stamp on the team that is.

Whatever. I don't really care either way right now.

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12-21-2011, 09:31 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
We had a legitimate pp during the period when Enstrom was injured, not league leading by any means, but no worse than at current.

Helm would increase overall team speed considerably. He is a great pk player and is probably one of the most underrated forwards in the league. Ericsson would represent a considerable size advantage versus the tiny Enstrom. His size makes the D more difficult to play against.
No, we didn't. lol

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12-21-2011, 09:31 AM
  #113
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Yep. Starting to think we need Flood on D
Bury Odaya's 3.5 mil and bring up flood

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12-21-2011, 09:37 AM
  #114
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No, we didn't. lol
Yes, we did, LOL.

The team has also played better overall during the period when Enstrom was out of the lineup, matter of fact; unless you don't wish to grade by the games won/lost standard.

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12-21-2011, 09:39 AM
  #115
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Yes, we did, LOL.

The team has also played better overall during the period when Enstrom was out of the lineup, matter of fact; unless you don't wish to grade by the games won/lost standard.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about then.

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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I get that Atlanta fans don't want to see a core piece of their old team traded, but it will happen eventually, whether it is Enstrom or someone else. Given the current make-up of the team, not sure who else they'd consider moving really, if management wanted to make a change to team chemistry and to put their own stamp on the team that is.

Whatever. I don't really care either way right now.
And once again you have to make this an Atlanta/Winnipeg thing when that is clearly besides the point. It's about trading our best player, a consensus top 15 defenseman in the league, and one of the best PP QB's in the league. And for scraps at that.

Then you say you don't care either way, yet here you are, arguing with someone on an internet forum.


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12-21-2011, 09:47 AM
  #116
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You clearly don't know what you're talking about then.
Actually, I come from a hockey background, having both played and coached the game at a high level. How about yourself?

Can you really be ignoring that the team played a different overall style of game sans Enstrom? They seem to psychologically want to rely upon him to move it out of their own end when he is in the lineup, they play a more conservative game versus getting it done themselves and just moving the puck forward. They spend more time in their own end when he is on the ice, yet this is counter to Noel's philosophy that he wants the puck out ASAP. You could literally hear the coaches on him last night... telling him to move it forward.

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12-21-2011, 09:56 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Actually, I come from a hockey background, having both played and coached the game at a high level. How about yourself?

Can you really be ignoring that the team played a different overall style of game sans Enstrom? They seem to psychologically want to rely upon him to move it out of their own end when he is in the lineup, they play a more conservative game versus getting it done themselves and just moving the puck forward. They spend more time in their own end when he is on the ice, yet this is counter to Noel's philosophy that he wants the puck out ASAP. You could literally hear the coaches on him last night... telling him to move it forward.
Oh so now we're going to talk about our background to try and legitimize our claim's about the PP? Oh geez.

Do you not understand what someone is talking about when they bold a certain sentence or paragraph? Because that's what I did. It's obvious the team isn't playing the same right now. But that's more because you just put two guys back in the line-up that have either been in and out of the line-up for most of the year or hasn't played in 20 games. Couple that with now suddenly losing our #1 center and replacing him with someone who had just missed a couple of games, and you'll have some miscommunication.

Now, as far as what I was actually talking about, the PP. No, our PP was hit or miss on any given night. Why? Because we had Stapleton and 3 shooters in Flood, Buff, and Bogosian. Not one of these guys knows how to work a PP. It was clear when we actually had a PP the other night that having Enstrom out there is MUCH better for the team. He made some smart reads, didn't just shoot randomly, and distributed the puck when necessary. He is one of the better PP QB's in the league.

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12-21-2011, 09:56 AM
  #118
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On nights where we can't get a clean win, it sure would be nice to get 2 points more often in these games that are tied at the end of regulation.
and what a downer to see Pavs once again get us to O/T in a game we had no business getting there, only to see 2 pathetic efforts in the shootout on our part and Pavs got owned twice upstairs glove.... frustrating...

what are we now, 1 - 5 when tied after reg? (IIRC, 6 O/T games - lost 3 in the 5 min O/T (Buff, NJD, Wash), and 3 shootouts - won 1 shootout (Fla) and lost 2 (Tor, NYI)
.... 7 points out of a possible 12
.... much as I hate the fact that some games are worth 3 points and others are only worth 2, I guess when you suck as bad as we do in OT and shootouts, we'll take those one point nights when we can get them....
.... man, you gotta figure Kane would stand a better chance of burying the odd shootout opportunity, ahead of Wheeler... maybe he was next up, who knows, but never got the chance.....
...we need to really step it up Thursday and Friday

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12-21-2011, 09:58 AM
  #119
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And once again you have to make this an Atlanta/Winnipeg thing when that is clearly besides the point. It's about trading our best player, a consensus top 15 defenseman in the league, and one of the best PP QB's in the league. And for scraps at that.

Then you say you don't care either way, yet here you are, arguing with someone on an internet forum.
Why are you making this personal? I'm not.

You are overrating Enstrom if you think him to be a consensus top 15 d-man league wide BTW. He may or may not have been one year ago, but he has yet to bring anything remotely close to that this season.

FYI, internet forums exist to debate and express opinion. You are entitled to yours, and I am to mine.

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12-21-2011, 10:06 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Why are you making this personal? I'm not.

You are overrating Enstrom if you think him to be a consensus top 15 d-man league wide BTW. He may or may not have been one year ago, but he has yet to bring anything remotely close to that this season.

FYI, internet forums exist to debate and express opinion. You are entitled to yours, and I am to mine.
Before Enström went down, he was a consensus top 15 d-man. It's not overrating, it's a fact. Check out all the threads discussing d-men last season until he went down this season.

Also, your appeal to authority regarding the PP is laughable. It doesn't matter how high a level you have played or coached on. The PP was obviously not legitimate, since it wasn't consistent. Enström came back, we have gone 1/2 with the PP since then, and you claimed that the PP with Enström looked worse than before? Really?

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12-21-2011, 10:12 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Why are you making this personal? I'm not.
You already did...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Actually, I come from a hockey background, having both played and coached the game at a high level. How about yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
You are overrating Enstrom if you think him to be a consensus top 15 d-man league wide BTW. He may or may not have been one year ago, but he has yet to bring anything remotely close to that this season.

FYI, internet forums exist to debate and express opinion. You are entitled to yours, and I am to mine.
No, I'm not overrating him. You're severely underrating him and all of the little things he does. You must fail to remember his play right before he got hurt, because he was really playing well and was playing a ton of minutes at the same time in all situations. He was anchoring the defense when Hainsey went out. Played over 25 minutes a game for 7 straight games before he got hurt, was helping our PP immensely, and playing very good defense breaking up cross ice passes regularly. He is one of the hardest defensemen to beat one on one in the league because of his skating and stick positioning.

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12-21-2011, 10:14 AM
  #122
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Before Enström went down, he was a consensus top 15 d-man. It's not overrating, it's a fact. Check out all the threads discussing d-men last season until he went down this season.

Also, your appeal to authority regarding the PP is laughable. It doesn't matter how high a level you have played or coached on. The PP was obviously not legitimate, since it wasn't consistent. Enström came back, we have gone 1/2 with the PP since then, and you claimed that the PP with Enström looked worse than before? Really?
I'm not arguing that Enstrom doesn't bring some powerplay skills to his game. What I'm saying is that he is tiny, and that makes him easy to play against in our own end when the other team have the puck. What I'm saying is that this team has a stated goal to be difficult to play against, and there are other options than going with such a tiny d-man full time. Some prefer big, physical teams.

I'm pretty much ambivalent whether they keep him or not, but frankly, this is a tradeable asset right now if the team wanted to make a change for chemistry sake. That's all.

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12-21-2011, 10:17 AM
  #123
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You already did...
No, I didn't.

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12-21-2011, 10:20 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I'm not arguing that Enstrom doesn't bring some powerplay skills to his game. What I'm saying is that he is tiny, and that makes him easy to play against in our own end when the other team have the puck. What I'm saying is that this team has a stated goal to be difficult to play against, and there are other options than going with such a tiny d-man full time. Some prefer big, physical teams. Sue me.

I'm pretty much ambivalent whether they keep him or not, but frankly, this is a tradeable asset right now if the team wanted to make a change for chemistry sake. That's all.
So you're going to advocate making a trade based on chemistry reasons in the last 3 games even though we've had a different line-up in each of the last three games with guys coming back after missing significant time and losing our #1 center. What do you think is going to happen when we bring in someone new that hasn't played or practiced with us all year? A new player has to get used to a new system and new players as well as the current players getting used to the new one(s).

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12-21-2011, 10:25 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Yes, we did, LOL.

The team has also played better overall during the period when Enstrom was out of the lineup, matter of fact; unless you don't wish to grade by the games won/lost standard.
I don't see how you can apply the win/loss record of the team in a short sample size and say that the team is "better" with Enstrom out of the lineup. There are way to many variables that contributed to our improved record over that span. More home games, more practices, improved play from other players, etc. To point to not having Enstrom in the lineup as a justification to trade him makes no sense to me.

It appears to me that you are applying a "what have you done for me lately" stance on this. Which is quite surprising because on other issues (I.E. trading assets for Selanne), you are pretty focused on the big picture and maintaining the TNSE plan.

I fail to see how trading a defenseman like Enstrom just because he has "struggled" (only struggled compared to his usual play), after only playing 13 games for you, even though he has a body of work that demonstrates that he is one of the better defenseman in the game. (While it's only HF posters, there was a poll I think last year where Enstrom was in the top 15. Whatever that is worth)

I personally hope we resign Enstrom this summer. If not, I think we have a decision to make NEXT trade deadline.

While I hope we can keep him, if he's not going to resign here I would think our option then is to trade him. And if the team does trade him, IMO, we should get more than Helm and Ericsson.

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