The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Well, I had read awhile back on one of the other threads that Akron, a city of 750,000 I believe, is one of those communities outside the the GMA of Cleveland's 2.2 million. I guess it would be considered one of those communities you are referring to?
Interesting, I didn't realize there was another 3 million people within the vicinity of Cleveland. Tell me though, is it manageable for people in those outlying communities to make the trip in for the 20 or so weekday games in a season? And how long of a drive would it be for them?? 1 hour?? 2 hours?? Obviously the longer the commute, the tougher it would be for potential ticket buyers to make it out for a game.
We'll call it a one-hour drive. Here is the breakdown by county...8 of the 15 most-populous counties in Ohio are in this area.
Cuyahoga - 1,300,000 (1st)
Summit - 546,000 (4th)
Stark - 381,000 (7th)
Lorain - 300,000 (9th)
Mahoning - 250,000 (10th)
Lake - 232,000 (11th)
Trumbull - 217,000 (12th)
Medina - 170,000 (15th)
The map here shows the population density of the state by township...notice the heavy concentrations of orange and red all across the northeastern part of the state.
However, this assumes that there would be a pressing need to commute to games. Cleveland is in Cuyahoga County, which is the most populated in the state by a good margin (300K more than second-place Franklin [Columbus], 500K more than third-place Hamilton [Cincinnati], and 750K more than fourth-place Summit [Northeast Ohio]). The Cavs used to draw heavily from Akron/Canton simply because Richfield is a rough halfway point between those areas and Cleveland. It was built with the idea that the population would continue to flock further and further away from urban cores, and that urban renewal would simply never happen. In the end, it was a compromise that made no one happy. Richfield to this day is so deserted that the only sign that an arena once stood there is that the two-lane state highway widens to three lanes for a stretch (where there was a turn lane into the arena) before tapering back to two.
Because a city owning the arena means the team is immovable?
See: Glendale and their 30 year lease with the Coyotes
Teams move because of financial reasons. The purchase of the arena and the reworking of the bluejackets lease greatly reduces the financial pressures that were lobbied against the team from the outset.
Mayor Bee has layed out great statistical arguments as to why a franchise could potentially flourish in the "Cleveland market". As I mentioned in my earlier comments, Cleveland is centrally located and highly accessible from the surrounding communities. I may be wrong but when Balsille was trying to move the Coyotes to southern Ontario, Bettman and the NHL weren't too keen with the idea because it would interfere with the Buffalo market. I believe the Hamilton arena and the Niagara Center are about 50 miles apart, whereas Nationwide Arena and The Q are about triple that.
clevaland makes perfect sense. they could share the cavalier's building and lease costs with that team's owner. good hockey fan base. Can't be all that bad considering you have nhl teams in phoenix, tampa bay, etc that have been losing money for years.
clevaland makes perfect sense. they could share the cavalier's building and lease costs with that team's owner. good hockey fan base. Can't be all that bad considering you have nhl teams in phoenix, tampa bay, etc that have been losing money for years.
The beauty is the Cavaliers owner, Dan Gilbert, would be the one who would purchase the rights to the "potential" Cleveland franchise. Take a look at a previous comment in this thread that shows a picture of what the arena looks like when the Monsters play at the Q (20,500 seating capacity).
- Cleveland and Pittsburgh hate each other. Despite Pittsburgh's own attempts to monopolize the Cleveland market (with the IHL Lumberjacks' affiliation back in the 1990s), I believe that huge numbers of people would flip in an instant if Cleveland had a team. The only area of Ohio that has any type of affinity for Pittsburgh is the split in the Youngstown/Steubenville area, and that's about it.
Cleveland & Pittsburgh football fans hate each other. There is no rivalry whatsoever between the Pirates & Indians. Even the Cleveland jokes are pretty much in good fun. I'm not so sure Cleveland could support an NHL team. First off, what conference will they be in? If they are in an "eastern" conference, you don't think that won't piss off Columbus? Or better yet, if you wanted to play off the Pittsburgh-Cleveland rivalry, you would put them in the Atlantic Division. Then what do you do with Carolina? Plus, see Columbus.
As far as hockey markets go, Cleveland isn't exactly at the top of the list when it comes to that. It may share Lake Erie, but it isn't exactly Buffalo either. Now, if you got another ready made team like the Avalance did when they moved from Quebec, you might be onto something, but that is a shot in the dark. Most likely, you are talking expansion or a struggling club which is both a long term investment. Even in a championship starved market, there is still only so much money to go around.
As far as Ohio is concerned, I disagree with your assertion about Pittsburgh's reach. It does go beyond Steubenville/Youngstown. The Steelers are popular throughout the state & the Pens stretch into Columbus. Unless the Cleveland team were to win right away, that's some stiff competition.
Ohio already has a team, and it's one of the least financially successful teams in the league, a borderline disaster that bleeds money even without a 2nd team in the state. I don't see this happening anytime soon.
I hope this happens just so I can see little Danny wet his pants again when an elite talent signs somewhere else after Danny G fails to pay for the complementary pieces he needs.
Before anyone jumps in,I really don't like LeBron that much either.
Dan wasn't cheap. Typical NBA players simply were being babies. Moreso than any other sport, basketball players are very SYA cliquise, they only want to go where their friends go and they are scared of cold winters.
1) Ohio is already covered with the NHL, in Columbus.
You have to believe, if Columbus ever got good, they would be able to tap into both Cleveland and Cincy. This is why Columbus was choosen over Cleveland, because it can be the number one PRO franchise in town (yes, we know OSU is number one) and it has broad appeal statewide.
2) Cleveland is a dying market, economically speaking.
3) I stated this in the Phoenix thread, do you really think out of a limited number franchises, it makes sense to have TWO in Ohio but none Houston or Cascadia, or Atlanta?
Business wise.
If you look at trends, Atlanta, Houston, and Seattle are growing (as is Phoenix). Fast forward several decades, these cities are going to have more and more of the balance of power, economically. The NHL would be wise to tap into and develope a solid footprint in developing markets, as opposed to aging ones.
1) Ohio is already covered with the NHL, in Columbus.
You have to believe, if Columbus ever got good, they would be able to tap into both Cleveland and Cincy. This is why Columbus was choosen over Cleveland, because it can be the number one PRO franchise in town (yes, we know OSU is number one) and it has broad appeal statewide.
2) Cleveland is a dying market, economically speaking.
3) I stated this in the Phoenix thread, do you really think out of a limited number franchises, it makes sense to have TWO in Ohio but none Houston or Cascadia, or Atlanta?
Business wise.
If you look at trends, Atlanta, Houston, and Seattle are growing (as is Phoenix). Fast forward several decades, these cities are going to have more and more of the balance of power, economically. The NHL would be wise to tap into and develope a solid footprint in developing markets, as opposed to aging ones.
It just does not make sense.
Huh?
1) So should we get rid of the Flames and Senators, since Alberta and Ontario are "covered" by Edmonton and Toronto? Let's get rid of Philly too - Pittsburgh covers PA, right? Why is there suddenly a one-team-per-state quota, regardless of how many markets exist in that state?
2) Columbus was chosen over Cleveland because the ownership group was based in Columbus, not in Cleveland. Did you think Bettman & Co. approached Columbus and tried to sell them a team? It goes the other way around - investors from the city approach the league with a big bag of money and say "This is for you if you give us a team." Nobody from Cleveland made a bid in the last round of expansion, so they weren't considered. You need to understand how the expansion bidding process works.
3) "Business wise", you go into markets where people are willing to own a team. Who are these investors in "Houston, Cascadia, and Atlanta" who are falling all over themselves to land a team in their respective cities?
Last edited by Buck Aki Berg: 12-22-2011 at 03:38 PM.
Cleveland & Pittsburgh football fans hate each other. There is no rivalry whatsoever between the Pirates & Indians. Even the Cleveland jokes are pretty much in good fun. I'm not so sure Cleveland could support an NHL team. First off, what conference will they be in? If they are in an "eastern" conference, you don't think that won't piss off Columbus? Or better yet, if you wanted to play off the Pittsburgh-Cleveland rivalry, you would put them in the Atlantic Division. Then what do you do with Carolina? Plus, see Columbus.
There's no Indians/Pirates rivalry because they play in opposite leagues. Also, there hasn't been any point since the 1930s where both teams were successful at the same time; the Pirates were last good during an entire span when the Indians were an abomination, and the Indians' rise to contention coincided with the beginning of the Pirates' run of consecutive losing seasons.
There's no NBA team in both cities, meaning the only real comparable league would be the NFL. And we know how that goes.
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As far as Ohio is concerned, I disagree with your assertion about Pittsburgh's reach. It does go beyond Steubenville/Youngstown. The Steelers are popular throughout the state & the Pens stretch into Columbus. Unless the Cleveland team were to win right away, that's some stiff competition.
The Penguins' reach is built entirely on their own recent success. I've lived pretty much my entire life in central Ohio, so trust me when I say that we went close to 10 years (1996 to 2005) without hearing so much as a peep from these Penguins fans. Chicago was much the same...you couldn't find a Blackhawks fan anywhere, then suddenly they start to emerge and it's like a virus.
The only areas where there is anything close to a majority of Steelers fans is in eastern Ohio. I certainly don't see any Pirates fans, including the people who are "all Pittsburgh". Still enormous numbers of Reds and Indians fans though.
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Originally Posted by ponder
Ohio already has a team, and it's one of the least financially successful teams in the league, a borderline disaster that bleeds money even without a 2nd team in the state. I don't see this happening anytime soon.
Well, let's think about this. Is it a matter of state/provincial borders, or is it a matter of proximal territory? If it's the former, then I ask whether or not Edmonton's long-running problems in the 1990s were a bad sign for Calgary, whether Ottawa going bankrupt and missing payroll was a bad sign for Toronto, whether Buffalo's problems under the Rigas regime was a bad sign for the Islanders and Rangers, and whether the Penguins' issues in the 2000s were a bad sign for Philadelphia.
If it's the latter, then I ask whether problems in one clearly distinct area are a bad sign for ones in another clearly distinct area that happens to be close by. Were Boston and New York negatively impacted by Hartford? Was Toronto impacted by Buffalo? Are Philadelphia, New Jersey, and the Rangers impacted by the Islanders?
You're just going to trust me on the following points:
1) Northeast Ohio and Columbus have very little crossover as it pertains to hockey. What's been said so many times about Minnesota holds true..."Fans of hockey, not necessarily of the NHL".
2) Northeast Ohio and Columbus are distinct entities. It's not like where we can draw a 100-mile radius around several Western Conference cities and say "Everyone in here would be a fan of the teams in the large city from which the radius is drawn." Northeast Ohio has three other major teams and supports them well (despite an abysmal lack of success). Everything from the workforce to the major employers to the ethnic background is very different; Akron/Canton/Massillon is very similar to Cleveland and very dissimilar from Columbus.
Dan wasn't cheap. Typical NBA players simply were being babies. Moreso than any other sport, basketball players are very SYA cliquise, they only want to go where their friends go and they are scared of cold winters.
I had a long discussion with a friend about this very issue a few days ago. I remember an old ESPN Magazine interview with Chris Webber, where he talked about where he'd like to sign as a free agent. The only problem was that he was under contract not only through the rest of that season, but the next one as well.
I generally have a positive view of David Stern as a commissioner, but I think his biggest blind spot (and every commissioner or authority has one) has been in dealing with what I'd call "internal tampering". It's not coaches or GMs tampering with other players, it's the players themselves. Personally, I'd have made an example out of the first time that such a thing happened to prevent it from ever happening again. Stern apparently didn't foresee the possibility of players themselves stacking the deck, or else he did foresee it and didn't care. His own comments last year about what Lebron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade did being "good for the league" would seem to indicate the latter, which is so shortsighted that I don't know where to begin.
The closest modern examples I can think of would be the 'Canes moving from Greensboro to Raleigh (although Greensboro was always just going to be a temporary home until the RBC Center was built) and maybe the Devils moving from East Rutherford to Newark (although that's what...10-15 miles? The Coyotes traveled further when they moved from US Airways Center to Jobing.com Arena).
Historically you have the Pittsburgh Pirates moving to Philly to become the Quakers.
The Sharks moved from Daly City to San Jose. That's about 50 miles.
Why would the NHL expand or move a team to Cleveland? Cleveland is the most saturated non NHL city in North America. Within a short driving distance, a Cleveland NHL fan can drive to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Buffalo and even Toronto. Cleveland had its chance in the late 1940's to become an NHL city when the very successful AHL Cleveland Barons applied to become the 7th NHL franchise and were rejected. Cleveland today can't sustain a 4th major pro sports franchise and all of the financial requirements that come with it the way a city like Houston could. NHL hockey died forever in Cleveland in 1978 when the NHL Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars.
If you look at trends, Atlanta, Houston, and Seattle are growing (as is Phoenix). Fast forward several decades, these cities are going to have more and more of the balance of power, economically. The NHL would be wise to tap into and develope a solid footprint in developing markets, as opposed to aging ones.
This is an excellent point. I don't know how much this would weigh on the NHL's decision making, but it's hard to ignore stagnant market growth. Sure growth doesn't equal success (as you mentioned, it hasn't in Phoenix), but it's certainly not a hindrance.
Has anybody here been to Cleveland??? It's NOT a 4 sport city, infact it's really not even the 3 you see now. It's about as big as a Buffalo or Pittsburgh. It's a 2 team city perhaps 3 with serious luck. The Cavs would be on the short list for NBA Contraction if it's done. There are probably more deserving cities out there lined up. Yeah I know Pittsburgh and Cleveland both have three teams but with the MLB's setup support in the stands isn't necessary to survive with the TV contracts the league has going on.
- Cleveland itself is in a state of flux. The suburbs are mostly in terrific shape, and as the Cavs' attendance has clearly demonstrated, people have a great willingness to make the trek into downtown to see games.
- Cleveland has a very long-standing history of hockey at all levels.
- The market penetration of the CBJ outside of the immediate area of central Ohio has been extremely poor. The number of people coming down from Akron/Canton or Cleveland is very small.
- Cleveland and Pittsburgh hate each other. Despite Pittsburgh's own attempts to monopolize the Cleveland market (with the IHL Lumberjacks' affiliation back in the 1990s), I believe that huge numbers of people would flip in an instant if Cleveland had a team. The only area of Ohio that has any type of affinity for Pittsburgh is the split in the Youngstown/Steubenville area, and that's about it.
- Columbus and Cleveland are two hours apart, not next-door neighbors (despite what ESPN thinks). Northeast Ohio is its own unique area...it's mostly blue-collar, and was largely built up into an industrial giant during the waves of Eastern European immigrants. Central Ohio is largely white-collar, and was largely built up as a frontier city by Irish and German immigrants. There's not much that the two areas have in common. People south of I-70 in central Ohio tend to follow Cincinnati sports more, people north of I-70 tend to follow Cleveland sports. But there's not a monolithic effect at work here.
- If you're not in Ohio or don't regularly go into Ohio, frankly I don't want to hear a bunch of pontificating about "what it's really like" here. Some of the relatively innocuous statements made on this thread are so far removed from reality that I don't know where to begin correcting them, and when it comes down to economic matters, the ignorance that will soon be spewed is astounding.
In 10 years, Ohio is going to see a massive economic resurgence. What's been happening is setup for extraction of enormous shale oil deposits all across the northeastern quadrant of the state. Ohio had an oil and coal boom, then industrial production, then industrial collapse...this is the industrial/mining cycle circling back around again. Certain counties near the PA border have had over 20% unemployment for over 20 years, and it's projected that there will be less than 2% unemployment in these counties just 5 years from now.
