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Old
12-20-2011, 07:11 PM
  #1
MaynardJames
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Patience vs Tanking

The fans around here need a deep breath, patience and something to do with their lives.

This team on paper has been the best I've seen in a very long time.

If healthy it looks like;


Max Pacioretty-David Desharnais-Erik Cole
Andrei Kostitsyn-Lars Eller-Louis Leblanc
Mike Cammalleri-Tomas Plekanec-Brian Gionta
Travis Moen-Petteri Nokelainen-Ryan White
Mathieu Darche-Scott Gomez-Aaron Palushaj

Andrei Markov-PK Subban
Tomas Kaberle-Rafael Diaz
Josh Gorges-Alexei Yemelin
Hal Gill-Yannick Weber

Carey Price
Peter Budaj

The roster is strong and balance. The only thing they need is stability with the new coach.

The best teams right now are Boston, Detroit and Vancoucer based on goals for and against. Those teams were not built by tanking. And every one of them wouldn't accept loosing to built a team and I can't beleive some people would prefer that for our city. The most titled city in the league. Come on, be real and start cheering for your team and hope for the best.

The only way I want a Grigorenko, Yakubov or Forsberg is by trading. It would be a shame to do otherwise. If you want to lose go cheer for another team.

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12-20-2011, 07:19 PM
  #2
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post
The fans around here need a deep breath, patience and something to do with their lives.

This team on paper has been the best I've seen in a very long time.

If healthy it looks like;


Max Pacioretty-David Desharnais-Erik Cole
Andrei Kostitsyn-Lars Eller-Louis Leblanc
Mike Cammalleri-Tomas Plekanec-Brian Gionta
Travis Moen-Petteri Nokelainen-Ryan White
Mathieu Darche-Scott Gomez-Aaron Palushaj

Andrei Markov-PK Subban
Tomas Kaberle-Rafael Diaz
Josh Gorges-Alexei Yemelin
Hal Gill-Yannick Weber

Carey Price
Peter Budaj

The roster is strong and balance. The only thing they need is stability with the new coach.

The best teams right now are Boston, Detroit and Vancoucer based on goals for and against. Those teams were not built by tanking. And every one of them wouldn't accept loosing to built a team and I can't beleive some people would prefer that for our city. The most titled city in the league. Come on, be real and start cheering for your team and hope for the best.

The only way I want a Grigorenko, Yakubov or Forsberg is by trading. It would be a shame to do otherwise. If you want to lose go cheer for another team.
Funny that you mention patience because that's exactly the opposite in what management has exhibited in how they've built our team. Rather than patiently rebuild from the broken core of a few years ago (actually the broken core from almost two decades ago) we've gone from one patchwork fix to another.

If you want patience, you should be asking it from management, not from the fans. Just go and rebuild it properly for once instead of grabbing whatever overpaid player is out there and available. We'll be better off in the long run.

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12-20-2011, 07:21 PM
  #3
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I see this team pulling a Philly style rebuild...a good team having a bad year.

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12-20-2011, 07:22 PM
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lou4gehrig
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Vancouver wasn't built by tanking? How did they magically end up with the Sedins?

Boston didn't win the title by tanking, but they ended up with new franchise player Sequin by tanking (trading top 5 pick (from tanking)). Not to mention they did have Thornton, Samsonov and other top 5 picks. We've only had Price in the top 5 in the last 25 years.

Detroit's run all started with Yzerman (top 3 pick). They've gotten lucky and drafted well since then with Lidstrom, Datysuk, etc.

What about Washington? Got good by tanking. Ovy, Backstrom, Semin.
What about Pittsburgh? Got good by tanking. Crosby, Staal, Fleury, Malkin.
What about Chicago? Got good by tanking. Kane, Toews.
What about Tampa? Lecavalier 1st overall won a cup. Now Stamkos.
Edmonton seems like they about to take off. Nugent-Hopkins, Hall.

Top 10 in scoring right now.

Kessel - 5th overall
Giroux - 22nd overall
Sedin - 2nd overall
Sedin - 3rd overall
Stamkos - 1st overall
Hossa - 11th overall
Lupul - 7th overall
Malkin - 2nd overall
Spezza - 2nd overall
Toews - 3rd overall


Last edited by lou4gehrig: 12-20-2011 at 07:30 PM.
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Old
12-20-2011, 07:28 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Vancouver wasn't built by tanking? How did they magically end up with the Sedins?

Boston didn't win the title by tanking, but they ended up with new franchise player Sequin by tanking (trading top 5 pick (from tanking)). Not to mention they did have Thornton, Samsonov and other top 5 picks. We've only had Price in the top 5 in the last 25 years.

Detroit's run all started with Yzerman (top 3 pick). They've gotten lucky and drafted well since then with Lidstrom, Datysuk, etc.

What about Washington? Got good by tanking. Ovy, Backstrom, Semin.
What about Pittsburgh? Got good by tanking. Crosby, Staal, Fleury, Malkin.
What about Chicago? Got good by tanking. Kane, Toews.
They didn't throw games to get batter draft positions. They had bad GMs.

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12-20-2011, 07:29 PM
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AntonCH
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Tanking is false hope
For every franchise that you can show me its worked for, someone else can show you another that's failed.
There are no guarantees, that being said I'd rather compete than tank.
how often has Washington won the cup btw?

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12-20-2011, 07:34 PM
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lou4gehrig
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
They didn't throw games to get batter draft positions. They had bad GMs.
Say what? So you're telling me when a team finishes with a top 3 pick, they aren't doing it on purpose?

Good franchises, instead of signing mediocre free agents (see Erik Cole, Brian Gionta, Roman Hamrlik, Jaro Spacek), decide to play young guys. They lose more games and in the end up with higher average draft picks. They have a window of 10 years to win and do it all over again (see Colorado, New Jersey, Tampa Bay, etc.).

The only time you sign mediocre free agents is when you have franchise players (Crosby, Ovy, Stamkos) to build around. Otherwise, you spend your time trying to get one of those players.

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12-20-2011, 07:36 PM
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lou4gehrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Tanking is false hope
For every franchise that you can show me its worked for, someone else can show you another that's failed.
There are no guarantees, that being said I'd rather compete than tank.
how often has Washington won the cup btw?
Your odds of winning a cup are alot higher with the Hart trophy winner and 60 goal scorer, than a bunch of try hard 20 goal scorers. Washington has a legit chance to win the cup every single season. We do not.

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12-20-2011, 07:37 PM
  #9
AntonCH
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Good franchises, instead of signing mediocre free agents (see Erik Cole,
Disregarding the rest of the post....... I LOL'ed and couldn't get past that part.
Cole mediocre? really?

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12-20-2011, 07:39 PM
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lou4gehrig
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Disregarding the rest of the post....... I LOL'ed and couldn't get past that part.
Cole mediocre? really?
Mediocre as in role players. As in complimentary to superstar players. Cole isn't the type of free agent like say Chara, who can come in and be a team leader. He's good at winning us extra games, but he's not going to push us in to cup contender category. He's currently 68th in the league in scoring. If anything, we're going to be drafting 15th overall instead of top 3. Wow. Another exciting 8th seed season.

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Old
12-20-2011, 07:39 PM
  #11
NotProkofievian
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Philly's success had nothing to do with the year they drafted 2nd overall. It had more to do with 2006 and 2003 than 2007.

What this team needs is an impact forward. We currently don't really have one in the system.

I don't think we need to draft 1st overall this year to nab an impact forward. But if we are to draft high one year, let it be this year. Please god let it be this year.

My reasoning? It wont be anytime soon again with the core we have. We actually have a lot of very good pieces in place, and we've got a few more coming down the pipeline. A couple good moves here and there, and one high draft pick could really put this team over the top.

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12-20-2011, 07:43 PM
  #12
lou4gehrig
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Philly's success had nothing to do with the year they drafted 2nd overall. It had more to do with 2006 and 2003 than 2007.

What this team needs is an impact forward. We currently don't really have one in the system.

I don't think we need to draft 1st overall this year to nab an impact forward. But if we are to draft high one year, let it be this year. Please god let it be this year.

My reasoning? It wont be anytime soon again with the core we have. We actually have a lot of very good pieces in place, and we've got a few more coming down the pipeline. A couple good moves here and there, and one high draft pick could really put this team over the top.
Philly and Detroit are exceptions to the rule. They have built good teams without high draft picks. They happen to have some of the bench front office guys in the business.

The rest of the cup contenders and winners over the past 20 years build with top 3 draft picks.

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12-20-2011, 07:46 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post
The fans around here need a deep breath, patience and something to do with their lives.
I agree we need patience, and I don't think we need to tank necessarily. I think we have a lot of positives in our lineup, but if we are not in 8th by February I think we have to consider doing a bit of selling. And I think that is what patience is about. Instead of trading for another patch to help us make 8th on the off chance we can win right now, if we are still struggling in a month or two we should sell a few assets for the future. Something we have not done for a long. Something that would be refreshing after seeing several UFAs walk with nothing to show for it. Souray, Ryder, Koivu, Komisarek, Kovalev, Streit, etc.

You mention Boston. Even in their good years they were willing to move key pieces of their lineup to solidify for the future. They traded Kessel for a pick after a 1st place season, after he scored 36 goals in 70 games. We haven't made any moves like that. We are afraid to even deal our twenty goal scorers in case they might win us a cup next year, not to mention no one has scored 36 goals for the Habs for a while.


Last edited by andy28: 12-20-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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12-20-2011, 07:55 PM
  #14
lou4gehrig
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
I agree we need patience, and I don't think we need to tank necessarily. I think we have a lot of positives in our lineup, but if we are not in 8th by February I think we have to consider doing a bit of selling. And I think that is what patience is about. Instead of trading for another patch to help us make 8th if we are still struggling we should sell a few assets for the future.

You mention Boston. Even in their good years they were willing to move key pieces of their lineup to solidify for the future. They traded Kessel for a pick after a 1st place season, after he scored 36 goals in 70 games. We haven't made any moves like that. We are afraid to even deal our twenty goal scorers in case they might win us a cup next year, not to mention no one has scored 36 goals for the Habs for a while.
We used to make deals to become better. In fact our last cup we had Damphousse (traded for Corson), Muller and Savard (traded for Chelios). We even traded for Turgeon and Recchi. We've essentially stop trying to acquire supremely talented players in the last 10 years or more. This method of acquiring average players to compliment other average players isn't working.

I hate to say it, even Toronto's method of trying to acquire the best players they can at all costs seems to be working better than our method. Guys like Lupul, Phaneuf and Kessel have higher ceilings than most of our guys.

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12-20-2011, 08:05 PM
  #15
andy28
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
We used to make deals to become better. In fact our last cup we had Damphousse (traded for Corson), Muller and Savard (traded for Chelios). We even traded for Turgeon and Recchi. We've essentially stop trying to acquire supremely talented players in the last 10 years or more. This method of acquiring average players to compliment other average players isn't working.

I hate to say it, even Toronto's method of trying to acquire the best players they can at all costs seems to be working better than our method. Guys like Lupul, Phaneuf and Kessel have higher ceilings than most of our guys.
I don't think we need to tank for the top pick. We just need to start assessing our assets once in a while and figuring out who we wanna keep going forward. And oh yeah, we need to do that before they become UFA once in a while so we can get something out of it.

We have been like this for a while. No disrespect intended to a player who had a lot of heart, and who I would gladly take over Gomez right now, but we couldn't trade Koivu for years because we thought the guy was Yzerman or something. And then he just went for nothing.

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12-20-2011, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
I agree we need patience, and I don't think we need to tank necessarily. I think we have a lot of positives in our lineup, but if we are not in 8th by February I think we have to consider doing a bit of selling. And I think that is what patience is about. Instead of trading for another patch to help us make 8th on the off chance we can win right now, if we are still struggling in a month or two we should sell a few assets for the future. Something we have not done for a long. Something that would be refreshing after seeing several UFAs walk with nothing to show for it. Souray, Ryder, Koivu, Komisarek, Kovalev, Streit, etc.

You mention Boston. Even in their good years they were willing to move key pieces of their lineup to solidify for the future. They traded Kessel for a pick after a 1st place season, after he scored 36 goals in 70 games. We haven't made any moves like that. We are afraid to even deal our twenty goal scorers in case they might win us a cup next year, not to mention no one has scored 36 goals for the Habs for a while.
The last such sale we made got us Gorges+Pacioretty. If we sell the right player(s) at the right price, maybe we can have an extra piece for the future.

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12-20-2011, 08:08 PM
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I'd prefer to tank.. I'm just tired to see players like Cammalleri playing like **** . Jacques Martin or not they're playing the same lame and ineffective so-called ''system''. I don't even care about watching this anymore, it's too painful and a waste of time in prime. There's potential with our young guys, but imo there's no way this team's gonna make the playoffs. Not with this coaching anyway, Randy Cunneyworth is Jacques Martin v.2.0.

And he can't speak french !!!!

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12-20-2011, 08:10 PM
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Ironically tanking is perhaps the longest and most frustrating way to build an organization. People here want the team to tank but they've never experienced what it is to have a true fodder team. The real test of patience would be to actually tank and experience a rebuilding team trough draft for like 4 or 5 years.

Would anyone watch a game if they knew the team's sole purpose is to fail? What would they do if the team loses the lottery and picks a guy that ends up being average?

Even when picking top5 the chances of selecting a real world class talent is pretty low, some teams have had high picks for years without having much to show for it. Its a risky process that.


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12-20-2011, 08:14 PM
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Trade deadline is when the best value will be had for players. If the habs are too far down the standings, they will be in a position to acquire a lot of picks and prospects. Accumulate enough 2nd round picks and they might be used to swap first round picks with a bottom dweller.

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12-20-2011, 08:17 PM
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lou4gehrig
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Would anyone watch a game if they knew the team's sole purpose is to fail?
Yes. We currently sell out every game even though the team's sole purpose is to not win the cup.

I think fans would be more interested in the team if we had a superstar surrounded by crap players (like Kovalchuk in Atlanta). I know I would. It's nice and all to cheer for players who play hard, but I'd rather cheer for supremely gifted players, like Lafleur and Roy.

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12-20-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Trade deadline is when the best value will be had for players. If the habs are too far down the standings, they will be in a position to acquire a lot of picks and prospects. Accumulate enough 2nd round picks and they might be used to swap first round picks with a bottom dweller.
I wish they brought in a new GM to start that process now. Otherwise we're trusting Gauthier (who is likely gone at the end of the season) to make those decisions. You think he'll care then?

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12-20-2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Ironically tanking is perhaps the longest and most frustrating way to build an organization. People here want the team to tank but they've never experienced what it is to have a true fodder team.

Would anyone watch a game if they knew the team's sole purpose is to fail? What would they do if the team loses the lottery and picks a guy that ends up being average?

Even when picking top5 the chances of selecting a real world class talent is pretty low, some teams have had high picks for years without having much to show for it.

You got a point there. But I started watching in 2000, would you consider this edition a true fodder team?

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12-20-2011, 08:20 PM
  #23
andy28
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Even when picking top5 the chances of selecting a real world class talent is pretty low, some teams have had high picks for years without having much to show for it.
I am not advocating a tank. Just a little selling. It will inevitably push us down in the standings though. Picks do not turn out all the time. But you have to build from all angles. And shoring up a few picks when stuff isnt working out is not a bad idea. Teams are trading players for picks all the time. Boston moved a 36 goal scorer for a pick. We have guys who have never scored 36 goals that we call untouchable.

Think of the UFAs we kept til their contract expired because we needed to get into the playoffs.

We may not have got high picks for any one of Koivu, Kovalev, Komi, Streit, Souray...mostly second round picks I would think. But damn we would have had a fair number of them, which is better than we got, absolutely nothing.

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12-20-2011, 08:25 PM
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NotProkofievian
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Philly and Detroit are exceptions to the rule. They have built good teams without high draft picks. They happen to have some of the bench front office guys in the business.

The rest of the cup contenders and winners over the past 20 years build with top 3 draft picks.
I don't disagree with you: Philly and Detroit are exceptional. My question is why aren't we? Why not us? Timmins is supposed to be "the best in the business," or so it's said.

Furthermore, if you take Seguin away from last year's bruins...they were still cup contenders. While it's true that they did have a top 10 pick on their lineup, that did not change a thing except one game on the road to a cup.

Some of the difference makers on Boston were 2nd or later round picks, one or two of which we were painfully close to selecting. Same thing with Philly.

I'm not opposed to bottoming out this year: I said as much in my first post. However, there is no excuse given the size and stature of our organization. Our first round picks have to be better, our asset management has to be better, and if we do draft high this year, we better make it count.

We are a Grigorenko away from being a contender in the future.

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12-20-2011, 08:27 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Yes. We currently sell out every game even though the team's sole purpose is to not win the cup.

I think fans would be more interested in the team if we had a superstar surrounded by crap players (like Kovalchuk in Atlanta). I know I would. It's nice and all to cheer for players who play hard, but I'd rather cheer for supremely gifted players, like Lafleur and Roy.
lol Atlanta..what a bad example..they made the playoffs 1 time in 9 years of Kovalchuk...give me a winning team before a superstar.

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