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Total gate revenues - You'd be surprised

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Old
09-28-2004, 09:04 PM
  #1
DownFromNJ
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Total gate revenues - You'd be surprised

Just got this week's THN. They listed average ticket prices for each team. I figured, what the hell. I took ESPN's avg attendance figures and crunched the numbers.

Team Avg ticket Avg Attend # home total gate revenue

1 Detroit 57.11 20,066 41 46,984,739

2 Philidelphia 57.06 19,375 41 45,327,037

3 Toronto 56.9 19,376 41 45,202,270

4 Vancouver 50.03 18,630 41 38,214,414

5 Ottawa 52.36 17,758 41 38,122,164

6 Minnesota 49.72 18,530 41 37,773,775

7 Phoenix 57.06 15,592 41 36,476,860

8 Montreal 40.84 20,555 41 34,418,144

9 Los Angeles 46.63 17,855 41 34,135,724

10 Boston 54.1 15,070 41 33,426,767

11 New Jersey 54.67 14,912 41 33,424,800

12 New York Rags 44.58 18,073 41 33,033,467

13 St. Louis 42.78 18,560 41 32,553,868

14 Colorado 42.18 18,007 41 31,140,945

15 Columbus 41.77 17,339 41 29,654,291

16 Dallas 38.34 18,350 41 28,844,599

17 New York Isles 53.14 13,431 41 28,833,133

18 Chicago 50 13,253 41 27,168,650

19 Edmonton 36.59 17,698 41 26,550,362

20 Tampa Bay 36.25 17,820 41 26,489,875

21 Washington 43.85 14,720 41 26,464,352

22 San Jose 39.15 15,835 41 25,417,550

23 Anaheim 41.25 14,987 41 25,346,763

24 Calgary 36.46 16,600 41 24,814,676

25 Nashville 42.5 13,177 41 22,960,922

26 Buffalo 35.46 15,343 41 22,306,573

27 Atlanta 34.87 15,121 41 21,618,040

28 Pittsburgh 41.65 11,877 41 20,281,759

29 Florida 29.76 15,904 41 19,405,424

30 Carolina 31.77 12,171 41 15,853,579

Average 44.627 16,533 41 30,408,184

Total 912,245,522


Edit - Fixing columns as you read this.


Last edited by DownFromNJ: 09-28-2004 at 09:09 PM.
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Old
09-28-2004, 09:12 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownFromNJ
Just got this week's THN. They listed average ticket prices for each team. I figured, what the hell. I took ESPN's avg attendance figures and crunched the numbers.
Great work.

Is that average ticket price the average of the pricing levels or the total possible income divided by the number of seats?

If its the former, I would guess that the overall number is low. In any arena there are more lower bowl seats than upper. Lower = $$$. So while that may be the average ticket price of the price ranges, it's not really a good indication of what the total income would be.

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09-28-2004, 09:13 PM
  #3
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If anyone has data on team TV contracts... I'd love to incorporate them into the spreadsheet.

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09-28-2004, 09:13 PM
  #4
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Code:
Rank	Team 		Avg Tckt	Avg Attn	Home	Total Gate Revenue
1	Detroit		57.11	20,066	41	46,984,739
2	Philidelphia	57.06	19,375	41	45,327,037
3	Toronto		56.9	19,376	41	45,202,270
4	Vancouver	50.03	18,630	41	38,214,414
5	Ottawa		52.36	17,758	41	38,122,164
6	Minnesota	49.72	18,530	41	37,773,775
7	Phoenix		57.06	15,592	41	36,476,860
8	Montreal		40.84	20,555	41	34,418,144
9	Los Angeles	46.63	17,855	41	34,135,724
10	Boston		54.1	15,070	41	33,426,767
11	New Jersey	54.67	14,912	41	33,424,800
12	New York Rags	44.58	18,073	41	33,033,467
13	St. Louis		42.78	18,560	41	32,553,868
14	Colorado		42.18	18,007	41	31,140,945
----------------------------------------------------------
15	Columbus		41.77	17,339	41	29,654,291
16	Dallas		38.34	18,350	41	28,844,599
17	New York Isles	53.14	13,431	41	28,833,133
18	Chicago		50	13,253	41	27,168,650
19	Edmonton	36.59	17,698	41	26,550,362
20	Tampa Bay	36.25	17,820	41	26,489,875	
21	Washington	43.85	14,720	41	26,464,352
22	San Jose		39.15	15,835	41	25,417,550	
23	Anaheim		41.25	14,987	41	25,346,763
24	Calgary		36.46	16,600	41	24,814,676
25	Nashville		42.5	13,177	41	22,960,922
26	Buffalo		35.46	15,343	41	22,306,573
27	Atlanta		34.87	15,121	41	21,618,040
28	Pittsburgh	41.65	11,877	41	20,281,759
29	Florida		29.76	15,904	41	19,405,424
30	Carolina		31.77	12,171	41	15,853,579

	Average		44.63	16,533	41	30,408,184
					Total	912,245,522

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09-28-2004, 09:14 PM
  #5
DownFromNJ
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Quote:
Is that average ticket price the average of the pricing levels or the total possible income divided by the number of seats?
I'm not sure. THN doesn't explain. But these numbers seem correct.

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09-28-2004, 09:19 PM
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Uhmm....am I missing something here? Why would we be surprised??

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09-28-2004, 09:22 PM
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Why would we be surprised??
Phoenix, New Jersey both make more at the gate than the New York Rangers.

Colorado is not top 10.

Montreal is all the way down at 8.

Columbus beats out Dallas.

Ottawa is top-5.

Those jumped out at me immediately. Oh, how badly I strive for TV contract data...

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09-28-2004, 09:29 PM
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ok....well....it's interesting, for sure.

it just SCREAMS that a salary cap would be completely unfair, doesn't it? .... at least a salary cap across the board - an individually set team by team cap could work....but,,,I just can't see how a salary cap would be just.

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09-29-2004, 03:06 AM
  #9
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It certainly is interesting. Presumably all the ticket prices are adjusted to American dollars? Pretty easy to see why I used to go to a few games a year when I lived in Edmonton, but don't in Vancouver, isn't it?

Well, that and I hate the Canucks.

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09-29-2004, 06:29 AM
  #10
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Interesting numbers. Should be remembered that revenue could be a fair bit lower due to giveaways, which I've heard have numbered in the thousands per game for some teams.

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09-29-2004, 08:26 AM
  #11
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It is pathetic that there are two teams who couldn't make $20M in gate revenue.


Har har, the two teams who i do not think will survive the lockout.

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09-29-2004, 09:59 AM
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Statistically those numbers are all overinflated. You cannot really take the average ticket price and multiple by the number of average seats to get an idea of the revenues. Take a look at the numbers from the Edmonton website based on ticket price for a season ticket by different seats. Multiple these numbers (that are already based on 40 games) and you get a total that is much lower. The mean is effected by extreme values so it can be over inflated easily.
Edmonton
$1,267.20 2000 $2,534,400.00 Gold Club
$1,110.40 2000 $2,220,800.00 Silver Club
$869.20 3000 $2,607,600.00 Executive
$776.40 2500 $1,941,000.00 Executive Terrace
$631.60 3000 $1,894,800.00 Terrace
$519.60 3000 $1,558,800.00 Colannade
$419.20 2000 $838,400.00 Gallery
Total $13,595,800.00 Canadian

I couldn't get it to line up properly but the total is much lower than what was shown earlier. Statistics can be inflated when used as shown.

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09-29-2004, 10:32 AM
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Are Canadian teams ticket prices converted to American dollars? Because they seem very low compared to many of their counterparts. At least Calgary and Edmonton anyway.

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09-29-2004, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck
Are Canadian teams ticket prices converted to American dollars? Because they seem very low compared to many of their counterparts. At least Calgary and Edmonton anyway.
I know Calgary cut off it's upper deck until they made the playoffs this season, which takes out a sizeable chunk of their revenue when you don't sell that many tickets because you choose not to.

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09-29-2004, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladybugblue
Statistically those numbers are all overinflated. You cannot really take the average ticket price and multiple by the number of average seats to get an idea of the revenues. Take a look at the numbers from the Edmonton website based on ticket price for a season ticket by different seats. Multiple these numbers (that are already based on 40 games) and you get a total that is much lower. The mean is effected by extreme values so it can be over inflated easily.
Edmonton
$1,267.20 2000 $2,534,400.00 Gold Club
$1,110.40 2000 $2,220,800.00 Silver Club
$869.20 3000 $2,607,600.00 Executive
$776.40 2500 $1,941,000.00 Executive Terrace
$631.60 3000 $1,894,800.00 Terrace
$519.60 3000 $1,558,800.00 Colannade
$419.20 2000 $838,400.00 Gallery
Total $13,595,800.00 Canadian

I couldn't get it to line up properly but the total is much lower than what was shown earlier. Statistics can be inflated when used as shown.

...looks to me like you have used Edmonton Road Runner AHL ticket prices in Rexall Place for the 2004-05 season, and not the Edmonton Oilers ticket prices from 2003-04...

Here is a link to information about Oiler season ticket prices for 2004-05, along with prices for single game tickets from last season...

http://edmontonoilers.com/tickets/2004renewal.htm


http://edmontonoilers.com/tickets/casual.htm


Last edited by GabbyDugan: 09-29-2004 at 10:49 AM. Reason: adding links to Oiler season ticket prices for 2004-05
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09-29-2004, 11:28 AM
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You are right I was using the wrong information. Here are the updated numbers:

$5,509.69 2000 $11,019,380.00 Gold Club
$4,827.48 2000 $9,654,960.00 Silver Club
$3,476.48 3000 $10,429,440.00 Executive
$3,235.75 2500 $8,089,375.00 Executive Terrace
$2,339.53 3000 $7,018,590.00 Terrace
$1,551.19 3000 $4,653,570.00 Colannade
$1,026.48 2000 $2,052,960.00 Gallery
17500 $52,918,275.00 Canadian
$41,276,254.50 U.S. based on today's exchange rate


But without knowing exact the number of tickets sold by ticket price taking the average does not work. Statistically the extreme values (high or low) effect the mean and you cannot multiple these values to get the revenues. If you sell a lot more of the expensive seats or the lower end seats it shifts the average. Like I did above you can only guess at the revenues. Also, unless all values are converted to the same currency comparing Canadian teams to U.S. would also be difficult. Canadian teams only take in money in Canadian dollars.

I just wanted to point out taking an average and multiplying by the average doesn't give you revenue values at all. It is just a guess. You need more information on the number of seats and the price per seat.

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09-29-2004, 11:42 AM
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#4? Atta boy Canucks!

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09-29-2004, 12:05 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladybugblue
Statistically those numbers are all overinflated. You cannot really take the average ticket price and multiple by the number of average seats to get an idea of the revenues. Take a look at the numbers from the Edmonton website based on ticket price for a season ticket by different seats. Multiple these numbers (that are already based on 40 games) and you get a total that is much lower. The mean is effected by extreme values so it can be over inflated easily.
Well, like BruinStickintheEye asked earlier, it depends how they calculated the average.

Say some team has a 16500 seat arena, and they have two classes of seat: 15000 seats at $10 per ticket, and 1500 at $100 per ticket, then how do you calculate the average?

1) ($10 + $100) / 2 = $55. Obviously, has no value for calculating potential income.

2) Weighted average ($10*15000 + $100*1500)/16500 = $18.18
This gives a much better idea of the team's gate potential *if* the two classes of tickets are selling at the same percentage. For example, if the team is playing close to capacity every night, then yes: you can assume that almost all the $10 tickets and almost all the $100 tickets are sold. The $18.18 average is pretty close to the real figure. However, if the team is drawing 15000 per game, but the 1500 tickets they don't sell just happen to be all the $100 tickets, then the team's average revenue per paying customer isn't $18.18, it's $10.00.

In a case like this, the team's marketing people would realize very quickly that they've got a pricing structure problem, and would move to maximize revenue from those $100 seats. If that meant selling them in discounted packages at a price that worked out to an average of $40 per ticket, then that's what they'd do, because $40/ticket is better than $0. And now the team's weighted average per ticket is $12.72, and if they're now selling some of those expensive seats, then that $12.72 should be a fair indication of the club's gate potential.

What I'm getting at, is that if THN calculated the average ticket price using a weighted average, then the numbers offered here are a not-bad first-guess estimate of the potential gate revenue the teams have. However, it's probably a little on the high-side, because it's unlikely that THN had access to information about promotional discount pricing, which would subtract from a team's revenue.

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09-29-2004, 12:23 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladybugblue
But without knowing exact the number of tickets sold by ticket price taking the average does not work. Statistically the extreme values (high or low) effect the mean and you cannot multiple these values to get the revenues. If you sell a lot more of the expensive seats or the lower end seats it shifts the average. Like I did above you can only guess at the revenues. Also, unless all values are converted to the same currency comparing Canadian teams to U.S. would also be difficult. Canadian teams only take in money in Canadian dollars.

I just wanted to point out taking an average and multiplying by the average doesn't give you revenue values at all. It is just a guess. You need more information on the number of seats and the price per seat.
You are right. Several years ago on the old pre-Fanhome Hockey Boards, some of the people who posted there went into a lot of detail and pretty much came to the same conclusion. The best they could come up with were some pretty reasonable estimates that were still open to debate. (BTW,Edmonton's actual seating capacity now is only 16,839. They sold 57,000- plus seats to the Hockey Heritage Classic last year, which skews both the average ticket prices and attendance.)

Season Ticket licenses and luxury boxes vary widely from team to team. and sometimes the line between ticket prices and these areas gets a little fuzzy. For instance, the President of the Edmonton Oilers recently said that the Oilers would draw about $ 4 million during the lockout from annual suite rentals/leases and advertising inside Rexall Place, since the Oilers lease on the building gives the Oilers suite and advertising revenues for most events held in the arena ( the Canadian Finals Rodeo being the only exception that I know of).

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09-29-2004, 01:11 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
The $18.18 average is pretty close to the real figure. However, if the team is drawing 15000 per game, but the 1500 tickets they don't sell just happen to be all the $100 tickets, then the team's average revenue per paying customer isn't $18.18, it's $10.00.

In a case like this, the team's marketing people would realize very quickly that they've got a pricing structure problem, and would move to maximize revenue from those $100 seats. If that meant selling them in discounted packages at a price that worked out to an average of $40 per ticket, then that's what they'd do, because $40/ticket is better than $0
I don't see it quite the same way. I probably would fire the marketing people and use their salary to hire a lobbyist to get the local government to build a new arena, or else call Allied Van Lines and move my team out of town.

In the case you are describing, you probably have a very serious problem with an obsolete arena, or else your team is in a very soft hockey market that can only attract fans by selling hockey tickets as part of some kind of promotion (supermarket ticket sales, free beer, etc... Your product is perceived as "cheap" entertainment). You clearly are not finding an audience for your NHL team from among la creme de la creme in your local market, and without the support of these people, an NHL hockey team in any market is dead in the water. It doesn't matter if you are talking about Dallas or Edmonton, Nashville or New York City...

One thing the NHL does is attract a rather impressive demographic. Some markets do better than others, but I would say the "average" fan going to a game especially in Vancouver, New York City, Toronto, Philadelphia has an above average income, plus has some say in how the company he/she works for spends some of their entertainment, employee rewards, and other similar funds. Teams like Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa - well, they are doing their best to gradually replace "Joe Fan" with "Joe" and "Joanne Businessperson."

Does hockey want to appeal to the "average" fan, the typical family?...Yes, hockey does, but the NHL does not, at least not to the degree that we are lead to believe. Take the kids to see the Mississauga Ice Dogs , the Michigan Spartans, or the Hamilton Bulldogs, but take that out of town business client to a Maple Leafs or Rangers or Thrashers game...maybe once in a while, give your Employee of the Month the company tickets so that he/she can give the kid a huge birthday treat - the kid might walk away from the arena with a new jersey or hat.

Gary Bettman perpetuates that myth about affordable ticket prices, but I'll bet he sings a completely different tune when he goes out and sells the NHL to corporate sponsors. He isn't going to be helping your marketing people turn those $100 tickets into $ 40 tickets, but if you are going to rip out about 5,000 of those $ 10 seats and replace them with about 50 luxury boxes that hold 50 people each and lease for about $ 120,000/year with other fringe benefits, Bettman will fly into your town and buy lunch for you and your marketing people. Bettman will give up those 5,000 $ 10 dollar tickets for 2,500 luxury box "occupants" (fans? maybe, maybe not) any day....


Last edited by GabbyDugan: 09-29-2004 at 01:19 PM.
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09-29-2004, 01:53 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Kravitch
#4? Atta boy Canucks!
You made over $20M last season, you should be in the top 5

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09-29-2004, 02:08 PM
  #22
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Are Canadian teams ticket prices converted to American dollars? Because they seem very low compared to many of their counterparts. At least Calgary and Edmonton anyway.
Yes they are converted (by THN, not by me). The Canadian Dollar is a huge part of the reason why Calgary and Edmonton can't make much money, Montreal too.

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09-29-2004, 02:32 PM
  #23
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I don't know about other clubs, but those numbers are surely high for the Lightning. For the last half of the season, there were numerous promotions to get fans into the arena and they weren't paying anywhere close to the average ticket price. And of course the 400 $8 seats for home games lowers the numbers too.

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09-29-2004, 02:46 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by MePutPuckInNet
ok....well....it's interesting, for sure.

it just SCREAMS that a salary cap would be completely unfair, doesn't it? .... at least a salary cap across the board - an individually set team by team cap could work....but,,,I just can't see how a salary cap would be just.
You mean its not fair to drag Detroit down to level of teams that don't even draw half of what they do(not even accounting for their TV money and licensing revenue)?

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09-29-2004, 02:51 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
You mean its not fair to drag Detroit down to level of teams that don't even draw half of what they do(not even accounting for their TV money and licensing revenue)?
I've read that Detroit lost 13M last season, which would be 3M more than Nashville.

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