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Old
12-23-2011, 10:45 AM
  #201
Born in 1909
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Originally Posted by JV View Post
Much hysteria about not so much.

A few observations:

This team has always been about .500 or below without Markov in the lineup.

Gionta is more important than people realize.

I think if the room comes together to deal with the adversity we can make it to the dance.

I understand how upsetting it is when the team can make the Jets look like Central Red Army circa 1977.

We need to stick together, as fans, and each do his part. I'm baking cookies.
Nice post.

This thread is awesome for weeding out unsavoury posters... Criticism is fine, but you have to weigh the GOOD along with the bad.

Imo, Montreal was fairly unlucky in recent seasons losing key guys FOR THE SEASON...

Losing Lang and Markov one season...

Losing Pacs and Markov last season... with them the Habs would have passed the Bruins.

Detroit without Lidstrom? They don't win all those cups.

Philly without Pronger? No cup.

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12-23-2011, 10:45 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Gainey acquired Kaberle? Gainey signed Markov? etc...
Meaning that the loss of Spacek and not having Markov in the lineup (like last year) is why were in the lower quadrant of the league?

The pathetic three-amigos of Gomez, Gionta, and Cammy have nothing to do with it?

Okay bud.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Gauthier came in, the team went to the conference finals and the year after he tought the team could win the stanley cup so he did nothing significant to bring the team over the top.

That alone there shows you that Gauthier and Gainey are on the same level as far as lack of judgement goes.

I don't feel sorry for Gauthier a single bit.
You do realize that the only reason we won those two playoff rounds were because we had all-star goaltending numbers and our opponents netted three goalies who put up backup type numbers.

The second we faced a goalie who wasn't throwing games we were easily disposed of in 5.

Nice try though.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 12-23-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: merge
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12-23-2011, 10:49 AM
  #203
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You have to compare apples with apples and not oranges.

You brough forth a bunch of the best "values" out there, mostly because they are players that chose to re-sign long term with their own teams at a discount instead of getting more as UFA's.

Hossa was a UFA but he signed for like 12 years, he makes almost 8 mil/year but has a lower cap hit because of the last few years. Those are cap friendly contracts but risky if the player gets complacent or unhappy and you have to try and trade him.

If you compare Gionta's contract to those UFA forwards that signed last summer(Leino Fleishmann etc) it makes a lot of sense. Those guys don't have his career record and Stanley Cup and make almost as much(4.5/year vs 5/year).

If you compared Subban last year(875k) to basically any d-man in the NHL they would look overpaid.
I know what you mean, I agree. However Cammy is nowhere near performing as a 6 million player where the other I mentioned are.

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12-23-2011, 10:51 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
You do realize that the only reason we won those two playoff rounds were because we had all-star goaltending numbers and our opponents netted three goalies who put up backup type numbers.

The second we faced a goalie who wasn't throwing games we were easily disposed of in 5.

Nice try though.
I edited my post, take a look. I completely agree with you.

Stop trying too hard man.

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12-23-2011, 10:58 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Meaning that the loss of Spacek and not having Markov in the lineup (like last year) is why were in the lower quadrant of the league?

The pathetic three-amigos of Gomez, Gionta, and Cammy have nothing to do with it?

Okay bud.
You missed my point. The point was Gauthier did his own thing, which clearly wasn't any better. The team that was assembled during that playoff run was 99.9% Gainey.

Under Gainey the habs made playoffs 5 out of 6 years. 1 Conference title. 2nd round twice, 3rd round once(shared with Gauthier). That's decent, not spectacular, but above average if you consider top markets like TO.

Obviously Gomez-Gionta-Cammalleri have something to do with it, but let's be honest here. Gomez sucks, we all know that. Cammalleri is inconsistent but a beast in playoffs and gionta is fairly decent. I'll admit I want gionta gone but we overpaid because he was UFA and we're montreal but other than that, he's been fine in regular season and playoffs IMO.

How's gorges and pacioretty? They overpaid, you know, those guys gainey acquired. What about David Desharnais, the guy Gainey signed and grew in our system? Travis Moen? Was that a bad signing? What about Gill? Did he suck for us come playoff time? What about keeping Price over halak, who btw makes more money than price? Bad move? All guys worth the money and probably playing over their salary.

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12-23-2011, 10:59 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Which is ironic because PG is trying to save his job that's in jeopardy due to Gainey's cluster****ing in the first place.
Wow! You're just ridiculous. I rembember the team Gainey was given when he first arrived and he did a good job of taking one of the ********* teams I had ever seen and get them in the playoffs pretty much every year. Even our team right now is wayyyyy more respectable than the ones of the late 90s early 2000s. If you can't see that... well I have have no respect for your opinion at all.

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12-23-2011, 11:06 AM
  #207
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Wow! You're just ridiculous. I rembember the team Gainey was given when he first arrived and he did a good job of taking one of the ********* teams I had ever seen and get them in the playoffs pretty much every year. Even our team right now is wayyyyy more respectable than the ones of the late 90s early 2000s. If you can't see that... well I have have no respect for your opinion at all.
I have to step in here and point out something that many of you guys seem to have missed.

A LOT of the talent pool was farmed by none other than Andre Savard and Timmins. Gainey came in and took over Savard's job, but the team Savard started with was FAR worst than the one Gainey inherited as well.

I didn't think Savard deserved losing his job as unceremoniously as he did. I thought he was doing a pretty decent job as a matter of fact.

I respect Gainey, but as a GM, his mistakes far outweigh the good. And I think you'd have to be a fool not to see that.

I'm on the wagon that the house needs to be cleaned from the top to the bottom.

I just wish language wasn't such a damn big issue...

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12-23-2011, 11:07 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ejaculine View Post
Wow! You're just ridiculous. I rembember the team Gainey was given when he first arrived and he did a good job of taking one of the ********* teams I had ever seen and get them in the playoffs pretty much every year. Even our team right now is wayyyyy more respectable than the ones of the late 90s early 2000s. If you can't see that... well I have have no respect for your opinion at all.
It's funny because out of our 3 best players, 1 is from the Houle era, 1 is from the Savard tenure, and one is from a flukeshot draft lottery.

Just saying...

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12-23-2011, 11:14 AM
  #209
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Nice post.

This thread is awesome for weeding out unsavoury posters... Criticism is fine, but you have to weigh the GOOD along with the bad.

Imo, Montreal was fairly unlucky in recent seasons losing key guys FOR THE SEASON...

Losing Lang and Markov one season...

Losing Pacs and Markov last season... with them the Habs would have passed the Bruins.

Detroit without Lidstrom? They don't win all those cups.

Philly without Pronger? No cup.



In fact it's a mixture of bad assets management - drafting/development/trading - and pure bad luck.

The actual team is a bad mismatch of players, lacks leadership, size and grit at every positions.

If you want a blueprint to how build a team, loook at the Bruins, SJ, Vancouver, Detroit and Chicago

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12-23-2011, 11:15 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
It's funny because out of our 3 best players, 1 is from the Houle era, 1 is from the Savard tenure, and one is from a flukeshot draft lottery.

Just saying...
Not sure who you consider our 3 best players in the last few years.

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In fact it's a mixture of bad assets management - drafting/development/trading - and pure bad luck.

The actual team is a bad mismatch of players, lacks leadership, size and grit at every positions.

If you want a blueprint to how build a team, loook at the Bruins, SJ, Vancouver, Detroit and Chicago
How is detroit a blueprint?

End up with Yzerman despite wanting lafontaine after having 4th overall pick.

Draft legend HOF D-man in 3rd round.

Draft 2 stars in late rounds.

I'm not saying they didn't have an eye for talent or whatever with the last picks but that's not really a model you can replicate. At best, we can steal their Euro scout, but without Hakan Andersson all this doesn't really count as a model.

Chicago model? Suck and screw up relations with fanbase. Cut off TV broadcasting of games. Lose money. Finish Last, get stars, forget to give RFA tendering contract offers, overpay for guys like campbell, win cup anyway.

SJ model: Don't win in playoffs.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 12-23-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: merge
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12-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #211
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I hope Mr.Molson is having a big meeting today with ALL his hockey staff, including the recently fired ones (that are still in the payroll), Martin and Pearn.

They must find solutions, NOW.

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12-23-2011, 11:24 AM
  #212
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I hope Mr.Molson is having a big meeting today with ALL his hockey staff, including the recently fired ones (that are still in the payroll), Martin and Pearn.

They must find solutions, NOW.
So who's getting fired next guys?

Everyone points at Graham Rynbend

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12-23-2011, 11:25 AM
  #213
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So who's getting fired next guys?

Everyone points at Graham Rynbend
I heard the janitor is to blame for this season.

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12-23-2011, 11:25 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
I hope Mr.Molson is having a big meeting today with ALL his hockey staff, including the recently fired ones (that are still in the payroll), Martin and Pearn.

They must find solutions, NOW.
Pretty sure if I'm martin or pearn I don't go that meeting and light up a victory cigar.

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12-23-2011, 11:25 AM
  #215
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How is detroit a blueprint?

End up with Yzerman despite wanting lafontaine after having 4th overall pick.

Draft legend HOF D-man in 3rd round.

Draft 2 stars in late rounds.

I'm not saying they didn't have an eye for talent or whatever with the last picks but that's not really a model you can replicate. At best, we can steal their Euro scout, but without Hakan Andersson all this doesn't really count as a model.

Chicago model? Suck and screw up relations with fanbase. Cut off TV broadcasting of games. Lose money. Finish Last, get stars, forget to give RFA tendering contract offers, overpay for guys like campbell, win cup anyway.

SJ model: Don't win in playoffs.
So the Habs have the perfect recipe ?


Chicago has turned the boat in the last 5 years, have become a very competitive team, and had won a Cup.

SJ is a very competitive team, too.

Detroit takes time to develop its players, and are wise enough to add the right veteran player when needed. Who is their goalie by the way ? They have leadership at all levels.

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12-23-2011, 11:26 AM
  #216
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This whole mentality that we need to hang onto Cammy because he's a magical beast in the playoffs annoys me to no end, he is not.

Would those who say Cammy is a playoff beast say that Jaroslav Halak is a playoff beast? Come on, get real. The sample is so puny it isn't even worth mentioning in his favor. He is no beast, he goes on streaks and sometimes they coincide with the playoffs, expecting this repeated performance is a recipe for disaster.

Time to get rid of him.

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12-23-2011, 11:27 AM
  #217
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Pretty sure if I'm martin or pearn I don't go that meeting and light up a victory cigar.
They might end up in a new organisation, together, pretty soon.

But I am sure they are quite disturbed by the situation, too.

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12-23-2011, 11:28 AM
  #218
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They might end up in a new organisation, together, pretty soon.

But I am sure they are quite disturbed by the situation, too.
I didn't meant it because they are rejoicing, it just proves their firing wasn't justified and there's a deeper problem.

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12-23-2011, 11:28 AM
  #219
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This whole mentality that we need to hang onto Cammy because he's a magical beast in the playoffs annoys me to no end, he is not.

Would those who say Cammy is a playoff beast say that Jaroslav Halak is a playoff beast? Come on, get real. The sample is so puny it isn't even worth mentioning in his favor. He is no beast, he goes on streaks and sometimes they coincide with the playoffs, expecting this repeated performance is a recipe for disaster.

Time to get rid of him.
Cammy is the perfect asset to trade.

I am sick and tired of his lousy attitude and sulking.

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I didn't meant it because they are rejoicing, it just proves their firing wasn't justified and there's a deeper problem.
Bad team make up, bad contracts, bad youth development + injuries.

We don't have the proper veteran players - too old, or too small + lack of real leadership.

And we don't have really ELITE youth. No superstars in the making, except Price.

And of course, a way too soft team.

The Canadian National Women Team has more guts and courage than this bunch.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 12-23-2011 at 11:56 AM. Reason: merge
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12-23-2011, 11:35 AM
  #220
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So the Habs have the perfect recipe ?


Chicago has turned the boat in the last 5 years, have become a very competitive team, and had won a Cup.

SJ is a very competitive team, too.

Detroit takes time to develop its players, and are wise enough to add the right veteran player when needed. Who is their goalie by the way ? They have leadership at all levels.
I never said we do, but you can't replicate something that isn't really a model.

I don't dislike those teams and respect them, but my point isn't that they are a fluke or a joke, but ironically, not all these teams build around a goalie. 3 of 5 do not. Does that mean we should drop Price? I mean, what model are we following? The reality is, we need to build and strenghten our core, no matter who it is. Through trades, free agency and all that and have the right personnel. In a sense, we could do like boston who acquired versatile two-way guys in peverley and kelly at the deadline to strenghten our team(not saying right now but over summer). At same time, we could do like SJ who has a top heavy organization with many franchise players. What's the right model? Do we build a skilled team like detroit or a tough one like boston? My point is this, I don't like copying models. We have our strenghts, we play to them and build around them. I want people 5-10 years from now to say the "montreal model". We need a GM with vision to create a new identity, not one to steal an existing one.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
This whole mentality that we need to hang onto Cammy because he's a magical beast in the playoffs annoys me to no end, he is not.

Would those who say Cammy is a playoff beast say that Jaroslav Halak is a playoff beast? Come on, get real. The sample is so puny it isn't even worth mentioning in his favor. He is no beast, he goes on streaks and sometimes they coincide with the playoffs, expecting this repeated performance is a recipe for disaster.

Time to get rid of him.
Few would oppose keeping him if return is fair. I suggested a trade around cammalleri and Stastny. Figured they'd get a good winger and we'd get a good center. I'd be willing to add obviously, but just saying cammy is easily expendable depending on the return.

Edit: Not saying it's realistic, just saying there's a zillion proposals to trade him.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 12-23-2011 at 11:56 AM. Reason: merge
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12-23-2011, 11:39 AM
  #221
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This whole mentality that we need to hang onto Cammy because he's a magical beast in the playoffs annoys me to no end, he is not.

Would those who say Cammy is a playoff beast say that Jaroslav Halak is a playoff beast? Come on, get real. The sample is so puny it isn't even worth mentioning in his favor. He is no beast, he goes on streaks and sometimes they coincide with the playoffs, expecting this repeated performance is a recipe for disaster.

Time to get rid of him.
This. Especially since his shooting% was trough the roof during the ECF playoff run. Also the guy has managed to be something like -10 in the last 2 playoffs despite his goalies posting an average of about .930 behind him. The truth is that Cammalleri was also terrible last year but Gomez being worse stopped some people from noticing. If he was russian he would already be gone.

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12-23-2011, 11:47 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
It's funny because out of our 3 best players, 1 is from the Houle era, 1 is from the Savard tenure, and one is from a flukeshot draft lottery.

Just saying...
One is from the Gainey era. Say it.

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12-23-2011, 11:48 AM
  #223
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I never said we do, but you can't replicate something that isn't really a model.

I don't dislike those teams and respect them, but my point isn't that they are a fluke or a joke, but ironically, not all these teams build around a goalie. 3 of 5 do not. Does that mean we should drop Price? I mean, what model are we following? The reality is, we need to build and strenghten our core, no matter who it is. Through trades, free agency and all that and have the right personnel. In a sense, we could do like boston who acquired versatile two-way guys in peverley and kelly at the deadline to strenghten our team(not saying right now but over summer). At same time, we could do like SJ who has a top heavy organization with many franchise players. What's the right model? Do we build a skilled team like detroit or a tough one like boston? My point is this, I don't like copying models. We have our strenghts, we play to them and build around them. I want people 5-10 years from now to say the "montreal model". We need a GM with vision to create a new identity, not one to steal an existing one.
There is not a thousand way to build a winning combination.

Besides Price, Habs always drafted later, sometimes with success (Beaulieu, Leblanc, Max Pac, Subban, McDonagh (!!!)...and also botched big time with Chipchura, Fischer, Maxwell, etc... We had a very miserable team around year 2000. How come we were unable to find a gem and draft higher then ?

The game is called "hockey" and it is a "physical" game. The game has never been faster nor harder to play. Our team is filled with small players, or non-physical players. No way can they compete. Look at the 1993 and 1986 Habs. You will see what it takes to make a "team". Boston got it.

You need stability too. Ronald Corey ****ed up this team for generations by hiring Houle and Tremblay, and by forcing Houle to trade Roy away. Since then we had 7-8 different coaches and 4 GM's. Some of these coaches are/were very succesful elsewhere. Julien won a Cup. Vigneault and Therrien went to the Finals.

This team has to be fast and very gritty with strong leadership at all levels, from the ice to the front office.

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12-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #224
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There is not a thousand way to build a winning combination.

Besides Price, Habs always drafted later, sometimes with success (Beaulieu, Leblanc, Max Pac, Subban, McDonagh (!!!)...and also botched big time with Chipchura, Fischer, Maxwell, etc... We had a very miserable team around year 2000. How come we were unable to find a gem and draft higher then ?

The game is called "hockey" and it is a "physical" game. The game has never been faster nor harder to play. Our team is filled with small players, or non-physical players. No way can they compete. Look at the 1993 and 1986 Habs. You will see what it takes to make a "team". Boston got it.

You need stability too. Ronald Corey ****ed up this team for generations by hiring Houle and Tremblay, and by forcing Houle to trade Roy away. Since then we had 7-8 different coaches and 4 GM's. Some of these coaches are/were very succesful elsewhere. Julien won a Cup. Vigneault and Therrien went to the Finals.

This team has to be fast and very gritty with strong leadership at all levels, from the ice to the front office.
I don't disagree with you. Our team needs a better identity, we need more balance. I just disagree with the notion of building a team like another. It's hard to replicate, not all players are the same. The key is to build around whatever you consider your core and then add pieces based on your vision. Whether it's a tougher team or a faster one, depends on the GM. I have my own way I feel the team should be built and I'm sure you have yours. Detroit isn't a physical team and they won so Boston and Detroit don't belong in same sentence as they aren't even close to the same. I think detroit model is wayyyy too hard to replicate as they likely have 3 HOF on that team by end of their careers, how do you match that? In the case of the habs, pacioretty, price, subban, eller, etc.. are all good pieces and are not undersized. They need more balance, I LOVED the Cole signing because here's a guy that will be a power forward and bring a new dimension. He's helped us for sure. The problem is, the rest of the team doesn't play same game. I know you're a toughness guy, and that's fine. I'm more of a skill guy, but at same time, i'm not blind to the importance of the Fishers, Coles and Lucic's of the hockey world. I wouldn't base a team around it, but there's no doubt this team, built by Gainey and Gauthier is a little short sighed with no balance. It's a small team and each of these players are decent individually, but collectively as a group it's overkill, no balance. My one complaint with management is that for so long "we need a big first line center" and...we never got one, we're still waiting. Never drafted, acquired or had one fall into our lap. Nothing. I would hope that the team changes it's identity a bit. Guys like Cammalleri can go, but I hope we use the pieces to acquire a legit 1st line center. If our old, present or future GM can't see we're a joke down the middle then regardless of model, we're screwed.

As for management itself. I always liked idea of having strong hockey personal as advisors or on a board. I like damphousse, Roy, Gainey(bonus, they all speak french) as competent hockey people who've had success with the habs. I want the team to be surrounded by winners and hard workers with experience in management and player development.

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12-23-2011, 12:12 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't disagree with you. Our team needs a better identity, we need more balance. I just disagree with the notion of building a team like another. It's hard to replicate, not all players are the same. The key is to build around whatever you consider your core and then add pieces based on your vision. Whether it's a tougher team or a faster one, depends on the GM. I have my own way I feel the team should be built and I'm sure you have yours. Detroit isn't a physical team and they won so Boston and Detroit don't belong in same sentence as they aren't even close to the same. I think detroit model is wayyyy too hard to replicate as they likely have 3 HOF on that team by end of their careers, how do you match that? In the case of the habs, pacioretty, price, subban, eller, etc.. are all good pieces and are not undersized. They need more balance, I LOVED the Cole signing because here's a guy that will be a power forward and bring a new dimension. He's helped us for sure. The problem is, the rest of the team doesn't play same game. I know you're a toughness guy, and that's fine. I'm more of a skill guy, but at same time, i'm not blind to the importance of the Fishers, Coles and Lucic's of the hockey world. I wouldn't base a team around it, but there's no doubt this team, built by Gainey and Gauthier is a little short sighed with no balance. It's a small team and each of these players are decent individually, but collectively as a group it's overkill, no balance. My one complaint with management is that for so long "we need a big first line center" and...we never got one, we're still waiting. Never drafted, acquired or had one fall into our lap. Nothing. I would hope that the team changes it's identity a bit. Guys like Cammalleri can go, but I hope we use the pieces to acquire a legit 1st line center. If our old, present or future GM can't see we're a joke down the middle then regardless of model, we're screwed.

As for management itself. I always liked idea of having strong hockey personal as advisors or on a board. I like damphousse, Roy, Gainey(bonus, they all speak french) as competent hockey people who've had success with the habs. I want the team to be surrounded by winners and hard workers with experience in management and player development.
The team had two goklden opportunities to draft a legit elite center in the last few years.

In 2003, they took A.K. while guys like Carter and Getzlaf were available. And then they drafted big center Urquhart (!!!) instead of Bergeron. Two major mistakes in the same draft.

In 2006, they took the famous Fischer instead of Claude Giroux.

If we would have only ONE of these great centers, the Habs would probably be way better.

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