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Old
12-23-2011, 10:52 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
No, they are not. They have better POTENTIAL. But neither is better now.
If we are talking 'what have you done for me lately', then yes, both are considerably better than Murray is RIGHT NOW.

If we are talking 'over the past season', Demers is absolutely better than Murray, and Braun is not far off. Braun & Demers brings better puck movement, possession, and offense. Murray is only better than Braun and Demers defensively, and even that gap is quickly vanishing.

I like Murray, but the gap between him and Vlasic defensively is deep and vast. Vlasic is an absolute stud right now, shutting down the best other teams have to offer every night. Murray is getting undressed pretty much every game and has put 4 pucks in the net himself. Also, Vandermeer is playing much better than Murray right now, and White is not far off (and improving every game).

Given the choice, I keep the young, stud, puck moving d-men who are signed cheap and still RFA's. If Murray wants to stay on this team, he needs to get back to playing sound positional hockey and destroying people who get anywhere near him. Right now he's terrible positionally and refuses to play the body for some reason.

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12-23-2011, 11:03 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If we are talking 'what have you done for me lately', then yes, both are considerably better than Murray is RIGHT NOW.

If we are talking 'over the past season', Demers is absolutely better than Murray, and Braun is not far off. Braun & Demers brings better puck movement, possession, and offense. Murray is only better than Braun and Demers defensively, and even that gap is quickly vanishing.

I like Murray, but the gap between him and Vlasic defensively is deep and vast. Vlasic is an absolute stud right now, shutting down the best other teams have to offer every night. Murray is getting undressed pretty much every game and has put 4 pucks in the net himself. Also, Vandermeer is playing much better than Murray right now, and White is not far off (and improving every game).

Given the choice, I keep the young, stud, puck moving d-men who are signed cheap and still RFA's. If Murray wants to stay on this team, he needs to get back to playing sound positional hockey and destroying people who get anywhere near him. Right now he's terrible positionally and refuses to play the body for some reason.
The bolded is really funny to me after all of your comments about Vlasic being very expendable during the off season.

Murray had a rough start to the season (like just about everyone on the team not named Vlasic) and there's really no reason to think that when Murray gets back into the line up his play won't also improve, especially since Boyle seems to have found his game. Also, who knows if Murray has been nursing some sort of injury before he hurt his hand that was holding him back.

I am not a fan of having Boyle as Vlasic's partner and using him to play against the other teams top players.

The Sharks don't have to trade a d-man and I really don't think they should.

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12-23-2011, 11:06 AM
  #78
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I seriously can't believe anyone here is actually trying to make a real argument about acquiring Penner

He's a worthless, lazy, unmotivated hunk of crap and as soon as the Kings traded for him I laughed my ass off at my King's fan friend. She understandably tried to talk him up and be positive about it. Now, she just goes "shutup" whenever I mention him.

He's been horrible for the Kings, and there is absolutely no reason to believe he would be any better for us. The Kings are a good team that had about as much chance at a cup as we did, and he was still totally useless out there. Not the kind of attitude we need. Hell, the Kings could give us their 1st and I still don't want any part of the guy.

Let's stick to difference makers, or just not bother. I'd literally rather ice Mitchell than Penner, and that is not hyperbole at all. Ryan/Parise are a pipe dream, but guys like Ruutu and Downie and Nielson are not. Nielson for instance should not cost significantly more than Penner but would be an infinitely better option.
There is no way that Penner is worse than Mitchell or anyone in our bottom 6. It wasn't that long ago that he scored 30 goals for Edmonton. Don't forget that he had to adjust to a new city, new team, new coach/teammates then play against one of the best teams in the west. He looked worse than he is. The coach was terrible anyways and his style got himself fired (and it hurt everyone's offensive numbers).

I'm gonna go with Les on this one. We don't have much to offer (scrolling through this thread you can see that), and Penner could help (at least add more size) for cheap. And you know DW would be interested. Penner has one of those shiny Cup rings...

I think you're dismissing the idea too quickly.

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12-23-2011, 11:09 AM
  #79
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The issue is how soft the Sharks are and Murray is one of the 2 or 3 guys that can dish it out.

Let him walk after this year, I don't care. But unless a deal involving Murray brings back a physical presence THIS year, I don't want to make it.

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12-23-2011, 11:13 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Trading Demers or Braun is the stupidest thing he could do. Murray will not be a member of this team come the 2013-2014 season. So you are trading a promising, young, budding d-man on a cheap deal for a guy who has one season left on this team max. The Sharks have too many D prospects and this is going to be Murray's one chance to cash in, and he is going to do so. We can't afford to pay Murray $4m when we already have Boyle, Burns, Vlasic (who will get a raise by then), Demers, and Braun all filling top-4 spots. Paying $4m to be a bottom pairing d-man is bad business, no matter how much we like him.

Again, we have 6 full time D-man slots. Murray is going to get pushed out one way or the other because Braun and Demers are both better players overall. The 'who would you least like to play against' stuff is meaningless, the guys are just saying he's the guy they least want to get hit by. If you asked them "Which player on the team would make another team the hardest to beat" they are not going to say Murray.

Edit: to add onto that, just a rough look at our D salaries in 2013-2014

Boyle - 6.67m
Burns - 5.76m
Vlasic - ~4.5m (UFA in 2014-14)
Demers - ~3m (RFA in 2013-14)
Braun - ~1.5m (RFA in 2012-13

Total: $21.43m

Right now we are spending 17.07m on our 5 highest paid d-men. Those #6-7 guys need to be guys on ELC deals (Petrecki, Irwin, etc) or cheap vet's like Vandermeer/White. Not Murray at $3-4m.
We'll disagree. He's not going to get a huge payday simply elsewhere because he's a defensive defenseman. They don't command as much as an offensive or puck-carrying defenseman. Murray has a skill set that nobody in the system have. Let him go and we will need to go to the market and buy someone with his skills because come the playoffs in partticular. Better to stick with what you know than try and get someone you don't. Im not for trading anyone for sticj]

To another's point, Murray has worn the A at times. He is viewed as a leader on this team.

Demers and Bruan are good top 6 defensemen, but we do have room to trade one as part of a package that gets us the forward we want.

Their PK system doesn't really employ his crease clearing skill-set though. Shaw said in a before-the-period interview that once a guy like Holmstrom is parked in front of the net, the defensemen are told to just leave them there and take the stick instead of the body. Vlasic is the most skilled on the PK in that regard (and the most skilled at clearing the puck out of the zone).

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Old
12-23-2011, 11:16 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
The issue is how soft the Sharks are and Murray is one of the 2 or 3 guys that can dish it out.

Let him walk after this year, I don't care. But unless a deal involving Murray brings back a physical presence THIS year, I don't want to make it.
I'm willing to take that chance if the move makes the team faster and deeper offensively, but I can see how someone would disagree (Vancouver and Boston were the 2 most physical teams in last year's playoffs).

The speed, depth issue is a bigger one IMO. W/O Murray we still have some physical guys that can dish it and take it.

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12-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #82
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I know Murray is a little older, but you could compare his stats to Volchenkov ($4.25). Murray is at least worth $3M, probably over $3.5M as a UFA for a 2 year deal.

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12-23-2011, 11:24 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
The bolded is really funny to me after all of your comments about Vlasic being very expendable during the off season.

Murray had a rough start to the season (like just about everyone on the team not named Vlasic) and there's really no reason to think that when Murray gets back into the line up his play won't also improve, especially since Boyle seems to have found his game. Also, who knows if Murray has been nursing some sort of injury before he hurt his hand that was holding him back.

I am not a fan of having Boyle as Vlasic's partner and using him to play against the other teams top players.

The Sharks don't have to trade a d-man and I really don't think they should.
So it's laughable that I am willing to change my opinion when the situation changes? Should I stubbornly stick to my guns even when it isn't logical?

My argument was that Vlasic had Plateaued and didn't look to be improving his game at all, that was true. He came out this year and has been absolutely phenomenal for us. He could have just as easily had another 'blah' season, but he didn't. Good for him, good for the Sharks.

Murray has been bad, and right now, even if everyone was healthy, I'd have him sitting on the bench in favor of Vandermeer and Braun.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want Boyle and Vlasic against other teams best players, they are our two best d-men... That doesn't make any sense to me. Vlasic is superior to Murray, why would you want Murray over Vlasic in that situation?

Anyway, even if Murray's play improves (which it probably will) Braun is improving just as quickly. Unless Braun suddenly falters, Murray has a tough road ahead of him if he hopes to not only push Braun out of the lineup, but convince management that paying him $4m makes more sense than paying Braun $2m.

Also, on the hits topic, Murray is hitting a lot, but he's not doing so effectively. I don't know what the deal is there. He isn't turning pucks over when he hits, and he's not drilling people like we normally expect from him. He's also throwing himself way out of position when he does hit often leading to bad situations. The guy is just 'off'.

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12-23-2011, 11:28 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
I know Murray is a little older, but you could compare his stats to Volchenkov ($4.25). Murray is at least worth $3M, probably over $3.5M as a UFA for a 2 year deal.
I agree, Murray will get $3.5m at least. I'll be shocked if he doesn't. Teams are going to overpay for him. He's worth $3m in my mind, which even that we cannot afford if we retain Vlasic, Demers and Braun.

I don't understand anyone who wants to trade Demers or Braun at this point. I think people take for granted how hard good young PMD's are to come by, we've been lucky lately.

As for guys to replace Murray, we have a perfect replacement, Nick Petrecki. He's as big a hitter, a better skater, and has more potential.

Edit: Also let me be clear. I'm not saying I WANT to trade Murray. I'm saying if that is the ONLY way we can get the forward we need, I'm ok with it. It might not be, and maybe Doug works a deal that doesn't involve trading a roster player at all, great. If however he does need to move someone on the roster, Murray is probably the most expendable guy with value, that's all I'm saying.

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Old
12-23-2011, 11:31 AM
  #85
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So it's laughable that I am willing to change my opinion when the situation changes? Should I stubbornly stick to my guns even when it isn't logical?

My argument was that Vlasic had Plateaued and didn't look to be improving his game at all, that was true. He came out this year and has been absolutely phenomenal for us. He could have just as easily had another 'blah' season, but he didn't. Good for him, good for the Sharks.

Murray has been bad, and right now, even if everyone was healthy, I'd have him sitting on the bench in favor of Vandermeer and Braun.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want Boyle and Vlasic against other teams best players, they are our two best d-men... That doesn't make any sense to me. Vlasic is superior to Murray, why would you want Murray over Vlasic in that situation?

Anyway, even if Murray's play improves (which it probably will) Braun is improving just as quickly. Unless Braun suddenly falters, Murray has a tough road ahead of him if he hopes to not only push Braun out of the lineup, but convince management that paying him $4m makes more sense than paying Braun $2m.

Also, on the hits topic, Murray is hitting a lot, but he's not doing so effectively. I don't know what the deal is there. He isn't turning pucks over when he hits, and he's not drilling people like we normally expect from him. He's also throwing himself way out of position when he does hit often leading to bad situations. The guy is just 'off'.
Just said it was funny, you were wrong about Vlasic - you could be wrong about Murray, that's all.

I don't want Boyle or Murray facing top competition, I would want Vlasic and Burns used in those situations.

And I really have absolutely no idea why Murray's UFA status in 2013 has anything to with whether or not he should be traded now. They have him for $2.5 this year and next, what he may or may not get in free agency really doesn't matter.

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12-23-2011, 11:47 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Just said it was funny, you were wrong about Vlasic - you could be wrong about Murray, that's all.

I don't want Boyle or Murray facing top competition, I would want Vlasic and Burns used in those situations.

And I really have absolutely no idea why Murray's UFA status in 2013 has anything to with whether or not he should be traded now. They have him for $2.5 this year and next, what he may or may not get in free agency really doesn't matter.
I certainly could be. Unlike some people around here, I am willing to admit that. However, the basic premise of my original argument still stands. The Sharks cannot afford to keep Murray and Vlasic past 2013-14, they are going to need to (and should) choose one. I've simply changed my opinion (and at the time I did say I was really ok with either, just preferred Vlasic be moved somewhat more). If you accept that one of the two will not be a shark after 2013, and that at this point it's likely Murray, that definitely does effect his value to the team long term.

As for the Burns/Boyle comment, that doesn't make any sense cause we were talking about Murray... Your saying Murray shouldn't see top competition, but I don't see what that has to do with Vlasic and Boyle. If you are saying Murray must be paired with Boyle, i'd argue that's been proven to not be true. Boyle's played his best hockey this season without Murray, and I suspect would play quite well with Vandermeer or White if given the chance. I don't think it's really an issue.

As for next season. You've got all 4 top-4 spots filled (Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers) and Braun likely fighting for a spot too. That leaves Murray as a #5 or #6, and we are going to have Petrecki and Irwin ready for NHL time as well. Plus would could likely retain Vandermeer and/or White pretty easily. Murray would be nice to have, but we still have a pretty solid d-core without him too.

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12-23-2011, 11:49 AM
  #87
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With Havlat out for so long *and* i think we need scoring depth i do see a need for a 2/3rd line forward with speed, PK skills that can put up 40 points. I've liked/wanted Cimera from the caps for this role in the past.

Well, i really can't see dealing any of the 8 NHL D we have, we need this depth to win the cup. I think we have the best D depth sice we had Blake and Ehrhoff on the team. Plus, Braun and Demers are quite good so with decent rights and contracts, just not sure i'd really want to move them. White and Vandy i believe fill experience/role player needs.

Maybe a prospects in the A as a D is delt e.g. Moore, Nick P (sorry i'm not convenced he's ready for NHL play yet). I can see Nitty getting moved as Griess is proven to be a decent NHL backup, and we have organizational depth/strength in at this position. I can see a lower level forward e.g. Ferrieo, McLaren, etc as part of the package with perhaps a mid level pick.

I think the question is who needs a NHL backup/starting goalie now, clearly this is the main player we'd want to move....

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12-23-2011, 11:57 AM
  #88
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I certainly could be. Unlike some people around here, I am willing to admit that. However, the basic premise of my original argument still stands. The Sharks cannot afford to keep Murray and Vlasic past 2013-14, they are going to need to (and should) choose one. I've simply changed my opinion (and at the time I did say I was really ok with either, just preferred Vlasic be moved somewhat more). If you accept that one of the two will not be a shark after 2013, and that at this point it's likely Murray, that definitely does effect his value to the team long term.

As for the Burns/Boyle comment, that doesn't make any sense cause we were talking about Murray... Your saying Murray shouldn't see top competition, but I don't see what that has to do with Vlasic and Boyle. If you are saying Murray must be paired with Boyle, i'd argue that's been proven to not be true. Boyle's played his best hockey this season without Murray, and I suspect would play quite well with Vandermeer or White if given the chance. I don't think it's really an issue.

As for next season. You've got all 4 top-4 spots filled (Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers) and Braun likely fighting for a spot too. That leaves Murray as a #5 or #6, and we are going to have Petrecki and Irwin ready for NHL time as well. Plus would could likely retain Vandermeer and/or White pretty easily. Murray would be nice to have, but we still have a pretty solid d-core without him too.
If you believe that the 25 games that Boyle and Murray have played this season trumps what they've done together for the past 2 seasons than that's your opinion and that's fine. But they have proven in the past that they are very, very good together.

And I don't really care who they pair Boyle with, my point was that Vlasic and Burns should be paired together and be played against the other teams top competition. If Boyle and Vlasic stay together, they'll likely be put against the other teams top line (because that's where Vlasic belongs). It's been proven time and time again that Boyle shouldn't be used against top comp.

If the org believe Petrecki is ready for NHL minutes next year than I'd be fine moving Murray in the off season, but there's no reason they need to trade him this year.

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12-23-2011, 11:59 AM
  #89
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Sharks are 4-4 without Murray giving up 2.5 goals a game vs. 2.4 when he is there.

They are not better without him. Best case, they've been the same, and that's with Nemo playing great.

Colin White has been good the last 3-4 games, that's been a huge help, much more than Braun or Demers defensively. Oh, and Boyle is heathy now. That's helps too.
I did not say better. What I said was good. There really isn't a helluva lot of difference when he's in or out of the line-up because he wasn't really throwing the body much this year anyway. Sure, the numbers will be there, but I can't remember a single really hard hits; all of the best hits this year were from Demers or McGinn.

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12-23-2011, 12:01 PM
  #90
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A lazy piece of crap who's 48th in NHL goal scoring since 2006, ahead of guys like Brad Richards, Johan Franzen, David Backes and Jordan Staal. He was an absolute force for the Oilers in 09-10, unquestionably their most valuable player as he posted a +13 goals versus threshold rating, meaning he added roughly over 2 wins of value to the team, more than Mike Richards, Ilya Kovalchuk and Corey Perry accomplished that year. Edmonton was 30 goals and 311 shots better at even strength when Penner was on the ice that season compared to when he wasn't despite the fact that Penner started shifts in his own zone more often than everyone except Horcoff. This was after an 08-09 season where Penner lead the Oilers in scoring chance differential. And of course he did all of this rarely skating with talent, unless you count the 25 or so games a year Ales Hemsky averages.

The Sharks need to improve at even strength if they have hopes of winning the Cup and Penner has proven more than capable of even strength production. He would also presumably cost very little since it seems like Deano and the rest of the Kings org are fed up with him. Bobby Ryan's a great kid but one of the big reasons the Ducks are terrible is that their "superstars," Ryan included, give back at the other end of the ice almost everything they create offensively. That wasn't an issue when there were two HoF d-men to bail them out constantly but it certainly is when you've got Cam "Marc-Andre Bergeron" Fowler and Francois Beauchemin as your shutdown pairing.

I really think there's a market inefficiency in the NHL with regards to players with so-called "bad attitudes." These are professional athletes; even if the alleged locker room cancers really are as bad as they're said to be I doubt it has even remotely the impact on team performance the media likes to portray. GMs who ignore "character issues" and instead solely focus on the value a player adds (or doesn't add) on the ice are going to come out ahead. And Penner adds a hell of a lot.
Your love of obscure stats is ridiculous. Penner is not good. At all.

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12-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #91
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If you believe that the 25 games that Boyle and Murray have played this season trumps what they've done together for the past 2 seasons than that's your opinion and that's fine. But they have proven in the past that they are very, very good together.

And I don't really care who they pair Boyle with, my point was that Vlasic and Burns should be paired together and be played against the other teams top competition. If Boyle and Vlasic stay together, they'll likely be put against the other teams top line (because that's where Vlasic belongs). It's been proven time and time again that Boyle shouldn't be used against top comp.

If the org believe Petrecki is ready for NHL minutes next year than I'd be fine moving Murray in the off season, but there's no reason they need to trade him this year.
You are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say Boyle and Murray don't play well together, i said Boyle can play well without Murray. His best seasons came while playing with a guy considerably worse than White/Vandermeer in Lukowhich. Boyle makes Murray better, not so much the other way around.

Also again, I am not saying I WANT Murray traded. I'm simply saying I could live with it giving the circumstances if it was for the right player. I don't however see a realistic trade scenario where I could live with trading Demers or Braun. That's all. There is no emotion attached. I don't hate Murray, I'm not trying to get rid of Murray, I'm simply saying IF a roster player (with value) is traded, it's probably going to be Murray. I'm not even saying I expect that it will happen, I'm just discussing a HUGE if.

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12-23-2011, 12:11 PM
  #92
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Several items:

Murray's next contract is down the road. Purely defensive dmen, even like Murray (eg Regehr and White), fall off rapidly on compensation. Pretty much when in their prior year they aren't facing clearcut top qualcomp. On the edge of top qualcomp, ~$3mil. Anything below, $1mil.

LW, I don't buy lockerroom cancer per se on rumor alone. But, I do look at team results for a frequently traded player. W/L with the player in/out of the lineup and before and after a trade. I haven't checked Penner in this regard. Also, Penner has been reported as lazy by multiple orgs which is a pretty strong indictment.

In the last game against the Bolts, Braun and White were briefly fulfilling top defensive pair duties. It may have been because the game was in hand. Don't undersell Braun defensively in a Braun/Demers comparison. I like both Braun and Demers and they bring different assets. They aren't clones.

I like what Vlasic has done this year, but I don't oversell his resurgence. IMO, a lot of it is the Burns effect. I still don't see high end offense from Vlasic.

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12-23-2011, 12:24 PM
  #93
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Your love of obscure stats is ridiculous. Penner is not good. At all.
Goals, shots, wins and scoring chances are obscure stats now? Ive yet to hear a rational argument against acquiring Penner. Lazy and unmotivated are entirely based on media narratives and hearsay; no one here knows a thing about Penners personality.

Honestly, its as simple as this: he has a 4.8 shooting percentage this season. His career rate is 13%. There is no chance in hell he sustains that low of a shooting percentage for the rest of the year. Now is a perfect time to swoop in, buy low on the guy and watch him contribute as that SH% regresses to the mean. Hes also spent barely any of his Kings career skating with Kopitar; any of Thornton, Pavelski or Couture would be the best center of his NHL career.

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12-23-2011, 12:25 PM
  #94
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Quote:
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Several items:

Murray's next contract is down the road. Purely defensive dmen, even like Murray (eg Regehr and White), fall off rapidly on compensation. Pretty much when in their prior year they aren't facing clearcut top qualcomp. On the edge of top qualcomp, ~$3mil. Anything below, $1mil.

LW, I don't buy lockerroom cancer per se on rumor alone. But, I do look at team results for a frequently traded player. W/L with the player in/out of the lineup and before and after a trade. I haven't checked Penner in this regard. Also, Penner has been reported as lazy by multiple orgs which is a pretty strong indictment.

In the last game against the Bolts, Braun and White were briefly fulfilling top defensive pair duties. It may have been because the game was in hand. Don't undersell Braun defensively in a Braun/Demers comparison. I like both Braun and Demers and they bring different assets. They aren't clones.

I like what Vlasic has done this year, but I don't oversell his resurgence. IMO, a lot of it is the Burns effect. I still don't see high end offense from Vlasic.
1. Agree. I expect Murray to fall off hard. Ideally he lasts the rest of this year and next, but the moment his skating slips a little bit he's in trouble.

2. I judge Penner based on what I saw in the Kings series last spring. He never back checked, never skated hard, never hit anything, and never ever scored. Even when playing with his choice of two elite centers this year he hasn't done jack squat. He'd be a good buy-low for a team that doesn't have SC aspirations.

3. Braun has been phenomenal on the PK. He is actually quite good defensively this year, and Demers is improving.

4. Vlasic's resurgence may be due to Burns (in fact I believe it is), but since we have Burns for the next 6 years I don't really see a problem with it.

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12-23-2011, 12:27 PM
  #95
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demers is better then murray. demers also hasnt gotten off to a great start, but he has begun to pick it up

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12-23-2011, 12:29 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Goals, shots, wins and scoring chances are obscure stats now? Ive yet to hear a rational argument against acquiring Penner. Lazy and unmotivated are entirely based on media narratives and hearsay; no one here knows a thing about Penners personality.

Honestly, its as simple as this: he has a 4.8 shooting percentage this season. His career rate is 13%. There is no chance in hell he sustains that low of a shooting percentage for the rest of the year. Now is a perfect time to swoop in, buy low on the guy and watch him contribute as that SH% regresses to the mean. Hes also spent barely any of his Kings career skating with Kopitar; any of Thornton, Pavelski or Couture would be the best center of his NHL career.
He was gift-wrapped a position on Kopi's wing, but even when he didn't he had a chance to play with Mike Richards and did nothing there either. But I think the whole stats-complaint (and my complaint) is that it doesn't look like you have ever watched a hockey game. I remember watching Penner from last playoffs float and fail. Stats can't describe accurately how horrible he was. That's what I saw with my eyes, and what I saw should be taken at face value, compared to your stats, which can show things that are entirely inaccurate.

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12-23-2011, 12:32 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Goals, shots, wins and scoring chances are obscure stats now? Ive yet to hear a rational argument against acquiring Penner. Lazy and unmotivated are entirely based on media narratives and hearsay; no one here knows a thing about Penners personality.

Honestly, its as simple as this: he has a 4.8 shooting percentage this season. His career rate is 13%. There is no chance in hell he sustains that low of a shooting percentage for the rest of the year. Now is a perfect time to swoop in, buy low on the guy and watch him contribute as that SH% regresses to the mean. Hes also spent barely any of his Kings career skating with Kopitar; any of Thornton, Pavelski or Couture would be the best center of his NHL career.
Have you watched the guy play? He doesn't move his feet, doesn't backcheck, doesn't forecheck, doesn't fight for position in front of the net. One thing you can determine about a player is work ethic, and he has none. He's got all the skill of Ryane Clowe and none of the heart.

I watch the Kings cause I like them, there is a reason the entire fan base hates him (as did the Oilers fan base).

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12-23-2011, 12:34 PM
  #98
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anyone else like
ruutu + a stewart for nitty, mitchell 1st 2012 and a 5th next year?

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12-23-2011, 12:36 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TehJuxtaposer View Post
He was gift-wrapped a position on Kopi's wing, but even when he didn't he had a chance to play with Mike Richards and did nothing there either. But I think the whole stats-complaint (and my complaint) is that it doesn't look like you have ever watched a hockey game. I remember watching Penner from last playoffs float and fail. Stats can't describe accurately how horrible he was. That's what I saw with my eyes, and what I saw should be taken at face value, compared to your stats, which can show things that are entirely inaccurate.
You're not taking the mean into account. I mean, the mean must mean something.

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12-23-2011, 12:36 PM
  #100
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anyone else like
ruutu + a stewart for nitty, mitchell 1st 2012 and a 5th next year?
For whatever reason Ruutu strikes me as less than ideal, for no good reason, just a gut feeling. But that said, I think we can avoid trading our 1st in 2012. I'm ok with 2013, but not 2013, and I don't want Stewart. He doesn't bring anything we don't already have.

Ruuttu for Niitty, Mitchell 1st 2013. That's it.

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