In all fairness, most rookies will be outproduced by just about any veteran third liner. Again, see Stamkos' first year. Doesnt mean they dont belong. Coutourier, right now, can EASILY be outproduced by virtually any FA. You cannot assess a rookie and his readiness by points...its not fair.
Its a balancing for all franchises...sacrifice points to have a hands on role in your ptospects development.
Oh, I agree. I just like to lean on the side of cautious like Detroit than do right under the circumstances Wang's cap evasion forces us in.
If Nino were Coutourier, a skilled forward, I'd welcome his lump-getting, but I am hesitant to agree with a power forward being ready at 18 or 19. They're a special breed. (well, to most teams)
So since we're using his cap hit/dressing him, like I said above, I want him to starve for icetime like any rookie should until he steals it from someone else.
Oh, I agree. I just like to lean on the side of cautious like Detroit than do right under the circumstances Wang's cap evasion forces us in.
If Nino were Coutourier, a skilled forward, I'd welcome his lump-getting, but I am hesitant to agree with a power forward being ready at 18 or 19. They're a special breed. (well, to most teams)
So since we're using his cap hit/dressing him, like I said above, I want him to starve for icetime like any rookie should until he steals it from someone else.
About your first part, if Nino wasn't ready and Garth truely felt he was, all we would've had to have done is sign another vet to an unachievable bonus laden contract to make up the cap space loss with sending Nino to Jrs. But thats a digression from the original post that ill save for another thread.
Coutourier is in a power forward mold. 6'4", 215 already! That Joe Thornton today almost. Coutourier may have some higher end skill that Nino doesnt (yet to truely be seen), but they are of similar breed being brought along in similar fashion.
I agree (as it seems you do as well) in starting Nino off in his currently role of fourth liner. Let him adjust and learn with the minimal set of responsibilities and let him take from others when he's ready and has earned it.
About your first part, if Nino wasn't ready and Garth truely felt he was, all we would've had to have done is sign another vet to an unachievable bonus laden contract to make up the cap space loss with sending Nino to Jrs. But thats a digression from the original post that ill save for another thread.
Coutourier is in a power forward mold. 6'4", 215 already! That Joe Thornton today almost. Coutourier may have some higher end skill that Nino doesnt (yet to truely be seen), but they are of similar breed being brought along in similar fashion.
I agree (as it seems you do as well) in starting Nino off in his currently role of fourth liner. Let him adjust and learn with the minimal set of responsibilities and let him take from others when he's ready and has earned it.
We agree.
(though Coutourier has a bit more two way AND finesse game that is NHL ready IMHO....the power forward game will likely come and he does have vet support if someone asks why they are different in my eyes. Nino doesn't have an inkling of a two way game yet IMHO)
Maybe we should of drafted Couturier instead of Strome. But lets be realistic even if we did draft Sean all of you on this board will be crying that he too is being rushed. So there really isnt any pleasing you people to begin with.
I personally wanted Nino to play in Europe for the year but I like the idea of handling him in the 3rd-4th line earning his way for longer play. He can grow just the same in the NHL and get stronger.
Hes ready...yes hes adjusting to the speed of the game, a natural process for almost all players coming into the league.
We have to be more patient with him. Let him learn and grow at his pace, dont expect too much from him right away. Thats what the Islanders are doing by putting him on the fourth line.
His Jr coach is going to do what any good Jr coach does when confronted with a reporter or microphone - sing praises to the guy and talk him up. Why? What's he got to gain from blowing as much positive smoke up our butts as he can, and what does he have to lose by saying he's not ready? Think about it.
The problem with him staying up, btw, doesn't have to do with his points and everything to do with what we see with our own eyeballs. He is consistently behind the play or a non-factor. He can't hold the puck, he can't carry it for long, he can't take it away from others even half the time... He is not generating. JT is contributing though being held off the score sheet. Nino is doing next to nothing regularly. He has a moment or two here and there where he looks like he should be here, but then he will fall into a stretch where he is Tambellini invisible. Add in that he is mighty slow and you wonder why he is here. I don't doubt his upside, but he is below any acceptable "floor" of abilities anyone playing in the NHL should be at.
And I don't see any real improvement over the games he's been here either. In other words, if you unzipped his skin and revealed a veteran hockey player under the Nino-suit, I'd say that veteran NHLer sucked and should retire.
Currently, he is a liability on the ice defensively, and a non-factor offensively. Hence, he should not be here.
Yes, he should be sent back, and this makes it worse...
Why not put with on the top line and bump PA?
Or KO, Bailey, Nino.
Putting him with scrubs is not going help in anyway shape or form.
What I feel they should do with the lines changes as the weeks go by. But that's how it's supposed to be. I don't see why this coach thinks there should be a set lineup with this group.
PAP JT MM
Martin Bailey Okposo
Grabner Nielsen Nino
leftovers
a player who is properly developed should have to earn playing time by being on the 4th line. Just like Martin did. A player who is rushed & the organization won't send him back, needs to be playing with better talent who can help him along in some way.
I'll take one year of Rolston and a fully developed (or far more mature) Nino Niederreiter whose NHL peak will be a 35 goal scorer with powerful hits and a solid second or even first line talent.
You can have No Rolston, a Nino that takes 3 years to find his game and whose career best is 20 goals but who might score 35 on another team after some years of adjusting.
I'll even throw in a "lesson learned TBD" to sweeten it.
Well, you're probably alone on this one. Not that it's not a valid suggestion, but most of the faithful on this thread have been calling for Rolston to be benched, and in many cases Pandolfo and Reasoner. If you go in that direction, Nino is your only option, other then dressing 3 lines.
lolno, it should be AHL or NHL for Nino, Juniors at this point is not an option at all, he has absolutely nothing left to learn in Portland, and since he can't go to the AHL the only option is he stays here for the rest of the year, and goes to the AHL next year. Anybody who thinks Nino should be in Juniors has no ****ing clue what they are talking about.
This makes the most sense to me. Unfortunetely there's some dopey clause that prohibits Nino from playing in the AHL.
His Jr coach is going to do what any good Jr coach does when confronted with a reporter or microphone - sing praises to the guy and talk him up. Why? What's he got to gain from blowing as much positive smoke up our butts as he can, and what does he have to lose by saying he's not ready? Think about it.
The problem with him staying up, btw, doesn't have to do with his points and everything to do with what we see with our own eyeballs. He is consistently behind the play or a non-factor. He can't hold the puck, he can't carry it for long, he can't take it away from others even half the time... He is not generating. JT is contributing though being held off the score sheet. Nino is doing next to nothing regularly. He has a moment or two here and there where he looks like he should be here, but then he will fall into a stretch where he is Tambellini invisible. Add in that he is mighty slow and you wonder why he is here. I don't doubt his upside, but he is below any acceptable "floor" of abilities anyone playing in the NHL should be at.
And I don't see any real improvement over the games he's been here either. In other words, if you unzipped his skin and revealed a veteran hockey player under the Nino-suit, I'd say that veteran NHLer sucked and should retire.
Currently, he is a liability on the ice defensively, and a non-factor offensively. Hence, he should not be here.
Redbull, APS, Nino is struggling in the EXACT same fashion as Tavares did in his first year. Knocked off the puck, not generating much offense, defensive liability, sub par skating, etc. Does not mean his game will not grow by leaps and bounds THIS year right in front of our eyes and that he needs to be sent down.
According to his Jrs. coach (spin it how you want) and our GM hes ready for the next level. IMO, and this is where it seems the division among us is, I believe his game will grow the quickest by PRACTICING with his NHL team and by playing against the best competition.
Redbull, APS, Nino is struggling in the EXACT same fashion as Tavares did in his first year. Knocked off the puck, not generating much offense, defensive liability, sub par skating, etc. Does not mean his game will not grow by leaps and bounds THIS year right in front of our eyes and that he needs to be sent down.
According to his Jrs. coach (spin it how you want) and our GM hes ready for the next level. IMO, and this is where it seems the division among us is, I believe his game will grow the quickest by PRACTICING with his NHL team and by playing against the best competition.
But unlike Tavares he is not elite, and it is highly arguable Tavares should have been somewhere else his first year. Recall, John's biggest hurdles were conditioning (leg strength) and skating. You don't need the NHL to work on those, and his biggest gains were during the offseason, not during the season which is what you appear to be suggesting. And unlike John who you could tell was thinking the game right, Nino looks lost, out of place, not where he should be when he is without the puck, regularly. That's why John actually put points on the board in his first 9 games. Nino has how many again in 9 games? One? Does that sound like a kid who is any way shape or form ready for the NHL?
Yes, his perfect placement would be on an AHL club. I think we all agree with this concept. But because of the rules governing players his age it is simply not an option. So far dumping him in to the NHL has yielded a pathetic amount of ice time with a geezer who should have retired years ago and plays like it, and with either enforcers, or other kids trying to learn their game as well. And that's when they actually let him play. You have to admit that riding the pine is worse than playing in juniors since he would be, you know, playing.
As for spinning, whatever. You tell me the last time you heard an old coach say anything negative about a developing prospect he had under him. Right, they don't, because it is unprofessional.
Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 12-23-2011 at 04:43 PM.
But unlike Tavares he is not elite, and it is highly arguable Tavares should have been somewhere else his first year. Recall, John's biggest hurdles were conditioning (leg strength) and skating. You don't need the NHL to work on those, and his biggest gains were during the offseason, not during the season which is what you appear to be suggesting. And unlike John who you could tell was thinking the game right, Nino looks lost, out of place, not where he should be when he is without the puck, regularly. That's why John actually put points on the board in his first 9 games. Nino has how many again in 9 games? One? Does that sound like a kid who is any way shape or form ready for the NHL?
Yes, his perfect placement would be on an AHL club. I think we all agree with this concept. But because of the rules governing players his age it is simply not an option. So far dumping him in to the NHL has yielded a pathetic amount of ice time with a geezer who should have retired years ago and plays like it, and with either enforcers, or other kids trying to learn their game as well. And that's when they actually let him play. You have to admit that riding the pine is worse than playing in juniors since he would be, you know, playing.
As for spinning, whatever. You tell me the last time you heard an old coach say anything negative about a developing prospect he had under him. Right, they don't, because it is unprofessional.
Thats not professional, thats being candid. Johnston knows that Nino is ready for the next level.
I think we can go round and round on this one. You believe a player will gain more playing 30 minutes/night in Jrs. I believe a player will gain the most playing 10-15 minutes a night AND practiciing full time with a professional team. I maybe basing this too much off of personal experience...while I never played pr, college or CHL level, I remeber going through the ranks, mite -> pee wee -> bantam -> Jr Varsity -> Varsity -> PAL Jrs. I remember starting out at each level...getting acclimated, feeling like I wasn't good enough, not contributing enough, etc. But I progessed as a player largely because of the practices at a higher level...the drills more advanced, the speed of my teammates faster, etc. I don't think the importance of practice can be understated and I think MANY people here do.
Thats just the basis for my reasoning. Perhaps its not in any way applicable since, again, I never played close to the same level as Nino. But I still have to think that its similar.
What I feel they should do with the lines changes as the weeks go by. But that's how it's supposed to be. I don't see why this coach thinks there should be a set lineup with this group.
PAP JT MM
Martin Bailey Okposo
Grabner Nielsen Nino
leftovers
a player who is properly developed should have to earn playing time by being on the 4th line. Just like Martin did. A player who is rushed & the organization won't send him back, needs to be playing with better talent who can help him along in some way.
Not too shabby but bear with me I actually I had this in mind.
PAP JT Okposo
Grabner Bailey Moulson
Martin Nielsen Nino
everyone else
I've been at this for quite some time. I just hope this is not Dave Czyzowski Redux.
I'm not worried about that, but his skating needs to get a lot better than what it is now, also his hockey sense isn't on a pro level yet but it'll get there.
I just hate how they treat the main team as a developmental team almost. That's what the minors/juniors are for Wang!
edit: It's pointless having him play a role that Rolston, or another scrub can play. That is until he's ready. The Isles have rushed tons of prospects-then we all sit around and scratch our heads and wonder why. It should be obvious by now-but for some reason it's not.
Thats not professional, thats being candid. Johnston knows that Nino is ready for the next level.
I think we can go round and round on this one. You believe a player will gain more playing 30 minutes/night in Jrs. I believe a player will gain the most playing 10-15 minutes a night AND practiciing full time with a professional team. I maybe basing this too much off of personal experience...while I never played pr, college or CHL level, I remeber going through the ranks, mite -> pee wee -> bantam -> Jr Varsity -> Varsity -> PAL Jrs. I remember starting out at each level...getting acclimated, feeling like I wasn't good enough, not contributing enough, etc. But I progessed as a player largely because of the practices at a higher level...the drills more advanced, the speed of my teammates faster, etc. I don't think the importance of practice can be understated and I think MANY people here do.
Thats just the basis for my reasoning. Perhaps its not in any way applicable since, again, I never played close to the same level as Nino. But I still have to think that its similar.
And I have played for a long time though never at a highly competitive level. No doubt you have even had the chance to speak with real pros and if you do, ask them what happens when you rush someone into a spot they aren't ready for. Nino, IMO, doesn't look challenged. That was Tavares his first year. He looks lost. How many games does he have to flounder through before you start wondering if it is two steps outside of his envelope? I respect what you are saying, about raising the bar with a harder league, but it looks like a bigger step for him than just making an adjustment.
edit: It's pointless having him play a role that Rolston, or another scrub can play. That is until he's ready. The Isles have rushed tons of prospects-then we all sit around and scratch our heads and wonder why. It should be obvious by now-but for some reason it's not.
painful to see him out there with reasoner and haley. Nino skated well tonight, he's working hard, but he's on a horrible line on a terrible team. Since he's played his 10th game vs Toronto, he's not likely to go back and "waste" a year of free cap space, which is a real shame.
But if he's going to stay, I'd play him on the 3rd line with Frans and Grabs
2nd line Bailey - Okposo - Martin.
I do think Nino will improve significantly by the end of the year - but it's a waste having him on the roster and especially on the 4th line. shame.
Hes ready...yes hes adjusting to the speed of the game, a natural process for almost all players coming into the league.
We have to be more patient with him. Let him learn and grow at his pace, dont expect too much from him right away. Thats what the Islanders are doing by putting him on the fourth line.
He's not ready to be in the NHL. The wise thing to do would have been to send him back to junior again, let him play in the WJC, and if he still wasn't quite NHL-ready next year, send him to Portland, then call him up and send him down as necessary.
That coach's interview was before training camp even started. So it was all projection. The fact is that Niedereitter still isn't ready for the NHL. Someone said it before, that that someone is absolutely right, you don't adjust to the game when you get to the NHL, you should be largely ready for it when arriving. The Islanders do not know how to handle any of their players. That's why they fail.
Well having Nino play his 10th game is a very unfortunate circumstance for all parties. I have had the privilege of watching Nino the past couple years here in Portland and he is a DYNAMIC talent. I would LOVE to get a Christmas present of Nino being returned. I believe for the most part all of you are accurate in your perception. Nino is a NHL caliber player. To me he is a "tweener" at the moment where he could play in the NHL in the right system with the right line and be very productive. However he plays for the Islanders! I am not here to bash your team, but quite frequently it seems there is no "system" and it is like a big game of pond hockey. In Portland Nino had 2 coaches in Mike Johnson and Travis Green who have NHL experience and have performed a complete magic act, not an illusion though, in reviving this franchise. They put in and play a fast paced Offensive style of hockey that allows Nino to really show off his skill. If Nino was to be sent back it would give us here in Portland a serious shot at making a run at the Memorial Cup this year. He is NOT a grinder. He is NOT a 4th liner! If the Isles have any developmental hope for him they need to bump him up to play with other skill players and give him minutes. 9-10 min per game does NOT develop NHL potential no matter what team you play for. I dont believe the Isles are "Cup Contenders" this year and I dont think anyone anywhere thinks that. So if you are going to keep him you might as well let him skate!
Thanks for letting me rant from the west coast!! Happy Holidays to you all!
Nino can't play in Portland anymore next year. I guess you mean Bridgeport.
yes he can.the isles can send him back anytime, but they cannot recall him until Portland's season is over. If Nino plays more than nine NHL games, it counts as a full season off his Entry Level Contract.
SMH this thread is ridiculous
I bet there are a bunch of you that think Tavares was rushed. Nino is here to stay and he will prove that he belongs and next year we have Strome playing as well. These are top draft picks, let them prove that they can do what they were projected to do.
The rest of you can cry all day, I am glad Nino is here and if he fails then he was never good to begin with.
Nino would have been far better off in Jr for the rest of this year. For the life of me, I don't understand having an investment with a high pick like him and not taking care of that investment properly. It's one thing if he is surrounded with good NHL vets who are not on life support and can hand hold a younger player(s) to a degree to help with tranisition (see Flyers) and having an NHL coach too does not hurt.
Another year of development, getting stronger and maturing would go a long way to his performance as an
It obvious to me that he does not belong on an NHL roster. Oh wait...I forgot...we don't have one.
