I think Garth believes that NHL experience is a good thing. I guess he believes Nino can handle it, tho after the concussion, i would have been nervous he was going to get really hurt if he stayed....
the real problem to me is that he belongs in the AHL and we cant send him there. Id like to see him in the SEL too, tho im not sure thats much different than having him plug along on the third line here in the NHL....
I think Cappy is doing his best to bring him along slowly, which is the right move, considering his play.
I actually like what ive seen from nino so far. he's shown decent strength and a very quick release.....his board play and his defense are terrible, tho that is to be expected i think.
I think Garth believes that NHL experience is a good thing. I guess he believes Nino can handle it, tho after the concussion, i would have been nervous he was going to get really hurt if he stayed....
the real problem to me is that he belongs in the AHL and we cant send him there. Id like to see him in the SEL too, tho im not sure thats much different than having him plug along on the third line here in the NHL....
I think Cappy is doing his best to bring him along slowly, which is the right move, considering his play.
I actually like what ive seen from nino so far. he's shown decent strength and a very quick release.....his board play and his defense are terrible, tho that is to be expected i think.
When I was in 6th grade, my teacher said the following:
If it's too hard for you, you're not learning anything
If it's too easy for you, you're not learning anything
Nino Niedereitter did not "outgrow"' junior hockey. That's nonsense. If he were 8 days younger, he'd have been drafted this year, and he'd be all but a certainty go back to junior.
I find it absolutley amazing how people completely ignore the single most important aspect of prospect development...practice. Practicing at the highest level is literally 10x more important for development than the 30 minutes a night he'd get in jrs.
I can't make you see things how I do, but when comparing the track he's currently on vs where he'd be in Jrs by only using minutes/game and role is flawed logic. You HAVE to consider the entirety of each experience and I think too much is being ignored when people formulate their opinions.
I find it absolutley amazing how people completely ignore the single most important aspect of prospect development...practice. Practicing at the highest level is literally 10x more important for development than the 30 minutes a night he'd get in jrs.
I can't make you see things how I do, but when comparing the track he's currently on vs where he'd be in Jrs by only using minutes/game and role is flawed logic. You HAVE to consider the entirety of each experience and I think too much is being ignored when people formulate their opinions.
Tell that to someone who's been through it. Someone like Dave Chyzowski, who deeply regrets being rushed into the NHL. In fact, two years ago he called Dean Cynoweth and said to him about John Tavares, "Please don't let them do to this kid what they did to me."
I'm waiting for the next concussion. I am still amazed he didn't see Fistric coming, as the guy came from his front and middle of the ice, not from the side or behind. He was so focused on the puck that he didn't realize the guy was on his way? I guess we will see.
IMO, he'd be able to find a home in a league better than jrs but without quite the edge of the NHL. Larsson transitioned nicely right to the NHL because of it. Others have as well.
Tell that to someone who's been through it. Someone like Dave Chyzowski, who deeply regrets being rushed into the NHL. In fact, two years ago he called Dean Cynoweth and said to him about John Tavares, "Please don't let them do to this kid what they did to me."
it is also a possiblity that dave chyzowski just sucked.
I have said before that the right place for him is either the SEL or AHL...but barring that, i dont see really what good it does putting him back in juniors scoring on the same moves that beat kids but will never beat an NHL defender or goalie. Tell me again what he has to learn in juniors?
I do think they are bringing him along slowly now in the NHL....hes plugging away on the third line, learning defense, not playing against the best players....yeah he got his bell rung....and I wish he could be in the AHL...but he cant.
Tell that to someone who's been through it. Someone like Dave Chyzowski, who deeply regrets being rushed into the NHL. In fact, two years ago he called Dean Cynoweth and said to him about John Tavares, "Please don't let them do to this kid what they did to me."
Dave certainly is the poster child for a rushed prospect, ill give you that. I don't know though...I find it so hard to believe that player's development can be so completely screwed up by spending portions of a season between the NHL, AHL and CHL and his psych so frail that the damage done by such would have them plodding along in the IHL and international leagues from then one. Something about that doesn't feel right.
I openly admit that I don't even everything and that had the Islanders' handled him in a different fashion (ie, two-three years in AHL), perhaps he'd still be an impact player today. BUT, there is still a chance that his career follows the same or similar trajectory. We just don't know. Knowing what we do, of course we would've liked for the Islanders to have done things different, but thats mainly because the alternative could ONLY be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick
I'm waiting for the next concussion. I am still amazed he didn't see Fistric coming, as the guy came from his front and middle of the ice, not from the side or behind. He was so focused on the puck that he didn't realize the guy was on his way? I guess we will see.
IMO, he'd be able to find a home in a league better than jrs but without quite the edge of the NHL. Larsson transitioned nicely right to the NHL because of it. Others have as well.
In fairness to Nino, the puck was in his skates as Fistric was lining him up. Nino knew he was going to get nailed and still made a conscious effort to get the puck deep and I applaud him for that. I know I wouldve turtled and yelled, "please don't hit me". Sucks that he got his bell rung, but he's back and there is something to be said about that.
it is also a possiblity that dave chyzowski just sucked.
I have said before that the right place for him is either the SEL or AHL...but barring that, i dont see really what good it does putting him back in juniors scoring on the same moves that beat kids but will never beat an NHL defender or goalie. Tell me again what he has to learn in juniors?
I do think they are bringing him along slowly now in the NHL....hes plugging away on the third line, learning defense, not playing against the best players....yeah he got his bell rung....and I wish he could be in the AHL...but he cant.
Chyzowski did suck. But he was also rushed. Granted, he was better at 18 than he was at 22 - that's rare. But being mishandled, kept-up, sent down, back and forth in the AHL-NHL, never consistent nurturing - that enabled his failure. Maybe he was on the edge anyway, but the NYI pushed him over.
Nino's got a lot to show in junior. Like leading a team to a championship. Like being the leader we need him to be. Like improving his strength, conditioning, foot speed. These are all limiting him in the NHL and hurting the NYI on the ice. He showed flashes, but he showed his age/weakness far too frequently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick
I'm waiting for the next concussion. I am still amazed he didn't see Fistric coming, as the guy came from his front and middle of the ice, not from the side or behind. He was so focused on the puck that he didn't realize the guy was on his way? I guess we will see.
IMO, he'd be able to find a home in a league better than jrs but without quite the edge of the NHL. Larsson transitioned nicely right to the NHL because of it. Others have as well.
I don't think he saw Fistric because they don't hit that way in junior, not a player as big as Nino is. A 17-18 yr old player will bounce right off Nino. Eric Lindros was exactly the same way in junior and he tried playing that way in the NHL. Didn't work out for him.
Some smaller players, offensive/skill-guys, have far more awareness on the ice. They are used to being targets and better-prepared to AVOID hits.
Frans Nielsen used to get clocked by big hits very regularly in his early years. Not being used to the physical NHL (playing in Europe and then the AHL helped him along IMO) but you could see how much better he is now at avoiding those career-ending hits.
Nino should have been sent down after 9 games. That's enough for him to see what he needs to improve and by how much. It's foot speed, strength and conditioning. The adjustment to the NHL NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN THE NHL, but why FORCE it before he's improved his strength, skating and conditioning? It's unnecessary.
I am as certain as one can be without hearing it - but if Nino was EARNING the same as his cap hit, I'd bet my HF credentials that he'd be in the WHL. That "free" cap hit is golden for the NYI....it's what makes DiPietro and Yashin and Witt so valuable this season - oh, and Rolston, Staios and Pandolfo.
Sadly, the Isles could have signed 5-6 players at $1-2MM each that would have been better for the NHL team AND the youngsters. Even 3rd rate guys like Parenteau, Moulson - good AHL players would have been better than some of the cap-circumventing-crap we see on the roster now.
it is also a possiblity that dave chyzowski just sucked.
I have said before that the right place for him is either the SEL or AHL...but barring that, i dont see really what good it does putting him back in juniors scoring on the same moves that beat kids but will never beat an NHL defender or goalie. Tell me again what he has to learn in juniors?
I do think they are bringing him along slowly now in the NHL....hes plugging away on the third line, learning defense, not playing against the best players....yeah he got his bell rung....and I wish he could be in the AHL...but he cant.
I think the agreement between Canadian Hockey League (WHL, OHL and QMJHL) and NHL where NHL draftees must play in CHL if they can't make it in the NHL should be ABOLISHED. Hell I think Nino would learn a lot more in the ECHL right now than being sent back to WHL.
I think the agreement between Canadian Hockey League (WHL, OHL and QMJHL) and NHL where NHL draftees must play in CHL if they can't make it in the NHL should be ABOLISHED. Hell I think Nino would learn a lot more in the ECHL right now than being sent back to WHL.
It won't be abolished. This is not an NHL rule. It's an agreement between the NHL and the CHL. The CHL is on the business of making money, too, and they don't want to lose their top players to a minor league if those players don't make the NHL. In all practicality from a player's stand point, it is stupid, but the league and its teams must protect themselves.
Looks like another prospect is being ruined, party on Garth. What a joke, Nino being rushed kills another year of the "rebuid". The practice argument is bush league, the best way to learn at 19 is in games he can practice skills in the off season. SNOW MUST GO
Looks like another prospect is being ruined, party on Garth. What a joke, Nino being rushed kills another year of the "rebuid". The practice argument is bush league, the best way to learn at 19 is in games he can practice skills in the off season. SNOW MUST GO
it's really hard to say a prospect is being "ruined" because we never know what the other side would look like. If we could go back in time, would Snow have sent Bailey to Windsor? Should Skinner have been sent back? What about Kadri?
The reality is, every player handles each situation differently and it's really hard to say what's right and what's wrong - in GENERAL.
But SPECIFICALLY on what Nino's faced with, it makes little sense to have him in the NHL, playing on the 4th line with two players that don't belong in the NHL. That, I simply, cannot understand.
It makes little sense having an offensive centre like Bailey with Wallace and Martin. Although he's played better since Comeau left - Comeau was skilled but really hard to play with (ask the Flames fans now).
This team frustrates me (and many of us) to no end. They lack talent, sure, but they have so many mis-cast players and it seems like they're setting up their key players to fail, while giving every opportunity to waiver players and AHLs cast-offs to succeed.
It's completely backwards and there's zero chance this can lead to NHL success.
One can always START to do things RIGHT at any time.
Wang can hire a real GM and coach and stay out of the way. Nino can be made into a solid NHL'er and not hoped to death to become one under these dire circumstances.
One can always START to do things RIGHT at any time.
Wang can hire a real GM and coach and stay out of the way. Nino can be made into a solid NHL'er and not hoped to death to become one under these dire circumstances.
He is going down the same road as Okposo and Bailey, 3rd line players. Nothing wrong grabbing a 3rd line player in picks 20 and on in the draft. In the top 10 drafting a 3rd line guy is pretty close to a bust.
Snow and Capuano are both HF boards caliber talent. We all know Wang will not spend but anyone on this message board can GM this team to last every season, Snow has proved he is on our level (below it in my opinion).
Bringing in hockey guys with experience can bring in better results even with our dollar store team. They can not be worse. SNOW MUST GO!
Prospects who whine about being rushed are just using that as an excuse for their failure. It might stall your productivity somewhat but it shouldnt impact your success by an great degree. Its up to the coaches and player to define a role on the team and not try to accomplish everything at once.
not sure why people on this board talk as if the whl is for second string players? and nino "cant" learn more in the DUB. lets set a few thing's straight nino never dominated in the WHL yes he could score pretty goals but keep in mind he had johanson and sven to thank for that.im sure nyi have players that can score but im an outsider and i am still trying to figure out who that is.so playing with players like ty rattie,emerson etem,and so on is a bad thing?lets see ty rattie 65 points already? also mike johnston portlands coach is twice the coach the isles have no shock there eh?so the other option is next year send nino down to the AHL? what good is that going to do the winterhawks would prolly kick the crap out of them.plus what is that going to do to his mind set?.nino is a great player just not his time not yet. im sure alot of fans disagree with me however it sucks for him and johanson because the both got drafted by the worst managed teams in the NHL. way to go isles management you have proved to be the worst ran team for many years now. wang and company should be kicked out and banned from the game. OH please oh please snow stay away from the winterhawk players till you are ready to run your team like a "normal" hockey team is ran..good luck nino your going to need it..lets hope for new owner ship and GM FOR NINO'S SAKE..
Play like Nugent-Hopkins at least production wise.
Islanders fans who need motivation to sit through the next 50 losses and the occassional win when the other team plays the back up goalie and is coming off 20 games in two days.
The kid should have been loaned out to a team in Sweden or Switzerland. He shouldn't be here until he's ready to play 10 minutes a night.
Having him on a 4th line is just ridiculous.
And that is THE answer.
Does Garth do these things to avoid looking like he has mishandled things, then wont back down?
All he needs to do is say that the kid is caught in limbo by the CBA agreement between the NHL and CHL that doesnt work in all cases, and this is one of those cases.
lets set a few thing's straight nino never dominated in the WHL yes he could score pretty goals but keep in mind he had johanson and sven to thank for that.
While Nino never "Dominated" in the WHL the goals he scored are not credit to Ryan and Sven! Nino has amazing talent on his own and I do recall a line that included Sven Bartchi, Craig Cunningham and Ty Rattie. Nino was not on that line and Nino and Johansen fed each other pretty equally. Do you give Nino credit for Ryans success as well? Nino will be a great player in the league given the right situation. I am not trying to compare the two just using an example but if you put Mark Messier on a 4th line his rookie year with no real help to succede and expect him to be a 20+ goal scorer would he have done it or even be in the HOF? Probably not. Not saying Nino is HOF material but the way he is being used really wont let anyone see his true talent. A good coach/gm can find a players strengths and weaknesses. A great coach/gm puts puts the players in situations that magnify there strengths and avoid their weaknesses. When that happens you generally see success from the player and the team.
While Nino never "Dominated" in the WHL the goals he scored are not credit to Ryan and Sven! Nino has amazing talent on his own and I do recall a line that included Sven Bartchi, Craig Cunningham and Ty Rattie. Nino was not on that line and Nino and Johansen fed each other pretty equally. Do you give Nino credit for Ryans success as well? Nino will be a great player in the league given the right situation. I am not trying to compare the two just using an example but if you put Mark Messier on a 4th line his rookie year with no real help to succede and expect him to be a 20+ goal scorer would he have done it or even be in the HOF? Probably not. Not saying Nino is HOF material but the way he is being used really wont let anyone see his true talent. A good coach/gm can find a players strengths and weaknesses. A great coach/gm puts puts the players in situations that magnify there strengths and avoid their weaknesses. When that happens you generally see success from the player and the team.
I hope that Nino plays in the AHL full time next season to learn the pro game. It's unfortunate that Major Junior leagues don't care about the well being of the NHL draftees in the system just to make more money for themselves.
I hope that Nino plays in the AHL full time next season to learn the pro game. It's unfortunate that Major Junior leagues don't care about the well being of the NHL draftees in the system just to make more money for themselves.
Seriously? That is what the Jr leagues are for, DEVELOPMENT! They are not "just about making money" but they are a business. A business that would not be there without the "tweener" NHL draftees.
it's really hard to say a prospect is being "ruined" because we never know what the other side would look like. If we could go back in time, would Snow have sent Bailey to Windsor? Should Skinner have been sent back? What about Kadri?
The reality is, every player handles each situation differently and it's really hard to say what's right and what's wrong - in GENERAL.
I have to disagree with you here. Detroit is the quintessential draft & develop franchise. They are the bar, the yardstick, the goal you hope for, and you couldn't convince me if you tried that would have brought Nino up this quick.
In terms of ruining players it's a given in the industry that some prospects have been rushed up and ruined. Many ex players and execs have said as much. The consensus has always been to err on the side of caution. The Islanders didn't strictly because they need the cap hit, IMO, and that is what disgusts the hell out of me. Wang is so masochistically cheap at the moment he'd probably go on a 10 week trip and leave the toilet bowl lid up for his dog to drink while he was out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
The kid should have been loaned out to a team in Sweden or Switzerland. He shouldn't be here until he's ready to play 10 minutes a night.
Having him on a 4th line is just ridiculous.
I could not possibly agree more with you. The club is being epically stupid.
