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Karlsson... Norris Candidate?

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Old
12-24-2011, 09:17 AM
  #51
JackBauer
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let him get his Norris noms starting next year, after he's signed to a 6 yr deal

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Old
12-24-2011, 02:11 PM
  #52
swiftwin
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I ****ing called it, read what I wrote in this thread last may:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=917346&page=5

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But whatever, no point in trying to convince you, but I know im right. I've been right about Karlsson in the past, and even other sens fans laughed at me (see: here), but in the end I got the last laugh. In 2-3 years, Karlsson will be miles ahead of Subban. Next year, Karlsson will be a borderline Norris nominee, and Subban will hit a big sophmore rut. Book it.
Screw modesty, **** im awesome


Last edited by swiftwin: 12-24-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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Old
12-24-2011, 02:33 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
I ****ing called it, read what I wrote in this thread last may:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=917346&page=5



Screw modesty, **** im awesome
It's pretty funny going over that thread and seeing people claim that Subban has higher offensive abilities than EK.

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Old
12-24-2011, 02:43 PM
  #54
Kush
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Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
I ****ing called it, read what I wrote in this thread last may:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=917346&page=5



Screw modesty, **** im awesome

Awesome! Good for you!

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Old
12-27-2011, 01:38 AM
  #55
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The Norris is such a stupid award. Lidstrom's got 7 now but he probably should have about 12, because he was snubbed for like 5 seasons before winning his first. Paul Coffey also should have had 5, instead Rod Langway won 2 of them instead for god knows what reason.

It's basically an award for the most respected defenseman among sportswriters. Karlsson is a tiny Swede with an unorthodox style playing for a small market team that happens to be a big rival of the Leafs. Unless he leads all defensemen in points and plus/minus for about 4 years straight he's not going to win it, and I couldn't care less.

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Old
12-27-2011, 05:37 AM
  #56
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The Norris Trophy is for the defenseman who is "most proficient" at the position. Yeah - we all know that like the Selke they don't give it to guys who only defend, but there is a fair argument that guys like Weber, Suter, Lidstrom, Chara and Keith are better all-around players. IMHO Karlsson is on the cusp with guys like Edler, Boyle, Phaneuf etc.

I personally think the Hart Trophy would be more appropriate for Karlsson.


Last edited by burgess1978: 12-27-2011 at 06:01 AM.
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Old
12-29-2011, 09:01 AM
  #57
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I can see him getting strong consideration for the Norris this year but until he improves his defense he won't win the award.

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Old
12-29-2011, 09:04 AM
  #58
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Mike Green didn't even make Team Canada. Score as many points as you want, that doesn't make you the best defenseman in the NHL.

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Old
12-29-2011, 09:19 AM
  #59
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Mike Green didn't even make Team Canada. Score as many points as you want, that doesn't make you the best defenseman in the NHL.
Ľubomír Višňovský and Keith Yandle werent in the nomination for Norris. And Karlsson will always be "this man who doesnt know to defend"... .

Btw I very like Erik and wish him it.

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Old
12-29-2011, 10:14 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I agree with you...which is why I said reputation will be a factor that could hurt Karlsson no matter what he does. When you battle incumbents, you must thrash them to take over.



I want the defensemen that helps his team the most.

If that's a defensemen that scores 100 points while making frequent mistakes while not playing against the oppositions best and playing no PK....but his team he leads his team in scoring and his team has home ice to start the playoffs?


I don't think you should have to value defense over offense...I wanna know who the most coveted Dman in the league is, disregarding team need, over that 82 game season.
If it's a guy that is most coveted because he can lead a team in scoring and play against the opposition best adequately? Sure.
Phil Housley had 97 points and a -14 in 1992-1993 and did not win the Norris. In fact, despite all his point production no team he was on won anything. Karlsson's offensive instincts are superb but until the Senators win some 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games in which he maybe has a point or none at all but he shuts down forwards shift after shift he isn't likely to be a Norris finalist.

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Reputation kills him unfortunately...
THIS. Just listen to Team 1200 Power Hour when Garry Galley (who had a ton of experience as D-man who got his share of points) or Ray Ferraro are on...all they keep saying is that Karlsson needs to improve in his own end; if he wants points all the time move him to forward, that he's too easily overcome physically. If Karlsson wants serious Norris odds, he needs to improve his defensive play to the point where opposing forwards say:

"Erik Karlsson is the hardest defenseman in the league to play against."
Kinda what they say about Chara, Lidstrom, Weber...

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Mike Green didn't even make Team Canada. Score as many points as you want, that doesn't make you the best defenseman in the NHL.
+1.
Need to keep your end tidy, points will come no worries there.

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Old
12-29-2011, 11:08 AM
  #61
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Yeah I certainly wasn't arguing he's going to win the Norris this year.

We already know he can kill penalties and do well at it, but killing penalties over a whole season will push him toward overall respectability. That'll only happen when Kuba and Gonchar filter out...if they choose to do it then.

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Old
12-29-2011, 03:00 PM
  #62
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I just have to chime in here a little. I don't mean to be rude, but what does what you think have to do with anything?

If we're discussing whether he has a chance to be nominated we should obviously be considering it based on how the league voters chooses the winners, not what we think.

Now, I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with your premise, but clearly the league voters don't choose the Norris winner based on your criteria, so it's kind of moot. Realistically points trump +/-. A guy who is a good defender and an excellent offensive player will win over an excellent defender who is decent offensively. It's a goal scoring league at the end of the day, an only defencemen who are leading or are at the very top of the points tree will win.

Based on how those who make the decisions have voted in the past, he absolutely has a chance to be nominated.
I never said that what I think mattered in terms of being nominated for the Norris. We're talking about an award and I just wanted to say what I thought about it.

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Old
12-29-2011, 03:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
THIS. Just listen to Team 1200 Power Hour when Garry Galley (who had a ton of experience as D-man who got his share of points) or Ray Ferraro are on...all they keep saying is that Karlsson needs to improve in his own end; if he wants points all the time move him to forward, that he's too easily overcome physically. If Karlsson wants serious Norris odds, he needs to improve his defensive play to the point where opposing forwards say:

"Erik Karlsson is the hardest defenseman in the league to play against."
Kinda what they say about Chara, Lidstrom, Weber...
And yet those guys neglect to mention the fact that the other team is rarely in the Ottawa end when he's on the ice because he's so dominant offensively. I'd like to see how many of these forwards can beat Erik in a foot race or can dangle him out of position or can take the puck away from him. Every body keeps saying he needs to be better defensively but no body can point out in what ways. And getting overpowered physically isn't a defensive deficiency. It's just a current fact. Something that will be less of a concern in a few years when he's built his strength to a top level. The fact is, people think "hardest defenseman to play against" and automatically think it all has to do with brute strength. Karlsson basically plays the same game that Lidstrom does, except Lidstrom has the benefit of 16 or 17 years of experience. Maybe he's not a Norris nominee this year for a whole bunch of reasons: better candidates, old boys' club voting system, injury (God forbid), etc. But anyone who thinks the way he's playing isn't good enough to earn a nomination, isn't watching what he's doing.

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Old
12-29-2011, 03:23 PM
  #64
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Getting dominated physically hasn't even been much of a problem...it's just a reasonable assumption based on how small he is and his reputation.

Biggest problem is taking risks getting out of his zone. It takes a while to change opinion...especially with the level of attention you bring to yourself nightly as one of the games best at creating offense from the back end. There might be a future Norris winner still in the AHL learning how to create offense and defense in the AHL right now.....

Lets just give the kid some time to develop. He is developing, and if he continues he's going to be a special player on both ends of the rink. Some nights he already looks like a top 10 Dman.

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Old
12-29-2011, 07:39 PM
  #65
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But IMO Cowen will be candidate in Sens for his style.Of course Karlsson will be only better but not many d-men similar play get Norris and not if they had the teamate who plays classical NA style with great defense.

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Old
12-30-2011, 08:27 AM
  #66
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He'll get votes, much like Visnovsky last year. There were a lot of writers that felt he was the best Norris candidate last season, and Visnovsky played a grand total of 35 short handed minutes all year. For comparison's sake, Karlsson was on the ice for triple that. Same with Yandle - very little PK time so that translates into "easier" minutes.

Mike Green finished a close 2nd 2 years in a row. If Karlsson continues his pace, he will easily be in the top 5 for voting. Points and flashy play = recognition.


Last edited by SlapJack: 12-30-2011 at 08:35 AM.
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Old
12-30-2011, 08:43 AM
  #67
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He'll get votes, much like Visnovsky last year. There were a lot of writers that felt he was the best Norris candidate last season, and Visnovsky played a grand total of 35 short handed minutes all year. For comparison's sake, Karlsson was on the ice for triple that. Same with Yandle - very little PK time so that translates into "easier" minutes.

If Karlsson continues his pace, he will easily be in the top 5 for voting. Points and flashy play = recognition.
I agree Karlsson will always be in the conversation of Norris when he puts up the kind of points he does now. But he has to become a plus player to even be considered no matter how many points he gets.

Mike Green had 76 points and was +39 and he didn't win, he also played over 2 min a game shorthanded. Karlsson currently plays 50 seconds a night shorthanded. So based on those comparisons alone, it's tough to win the Norris being an offensive dman, but i think he will certainly get nominated a few times in his career, but whether he wins or not remains to be seen.

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Old
12-30-2011, 10:07 AM
  #68
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I think Karlsson is a better defender than Green, and he's getting better. Once he irons out the decision making gaffs he'll be seen as a good defender. He already makes some great defensive plays each game. He's starting to hit, he's starting to rub guys out when he can, and his stickwork is superb. He is a smaller guy so he has to use his speed, his stick, and his smarts more so than his brawn.

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Old
12-30-2011, 11:10 AM
  #69
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Yes he will be a Norris candidate. Whether he wins or not, probably not. Overall, though, who is really standing out on D and you will find Karlsson mentioned. he simply gets noticed by everyone including the influential media personalities. It is almost to the point he is being "unfairly" focussed on, too much attention because he is still a pretty young player and every move of his is now being scrutinized.

For example, Sens fans know his turnovers have greatly decreased, his pivoting to the right is much improved and his physical play, his positioning is greatly improved...night and day really. But the experts on the panels will point out the one play or mistake and harp on it like it is last year's Erik Karlsson. Hate that.

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Old
12-31-2011, 12:38 AM
  #70
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If he beats out Chara/Weber/Keith/Lidstrom.....I'll start calling him Erik Norrisson.

within the next 3 years he should win one if he continues to develop like he has for the past 2.5 years.

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12-31-2011, 01:12 AM
  #71
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Yes he will be a Norris candidate. Whether he wins or not, probably not. Overall, though, who is really standing out on D and you will find Karlsson mentioned. he simply gets noticed by everyone including the influential media personalities. It is almost to the point he is being "unfairly" focussed on, too much attention because he is still a pretty young player and every move of his is now being scrutinized.

For example, Sens fans know his turnovers have greatly decreased, his pivoting to the right is much improved and his physical play, his positioning is greatly improved...night and day really. But the experts on the panels will point out the one play or mistake and harp on it like it is last year's Erik Karlsson. Hate that.
I find it's the opposite. I watch all of the games on Centre Ice and have to deal with out of town broadcast teams more often then not. I have to say that almost every game they gush over Karlsson.

The Calgary guys today couldn't mention how Karlsson was one of the "leagues best young players" enough times it seemed...

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Old
12-31-2011, 02:13 AM
  #72
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Whenever Karlsson does something bad defensively, like getting beaten on the boards or turn the puck over, it's all "offensive dynamo, needs to improve defensively". Then when he strips the puck off someone who isn't Ovechkin no one says anything. It might take him a long, long time to get recognition for a Norris, but if he keeps up his play, he'll get some.

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Old
12-31-2011, 08:06 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
Whenever Karlsson does something bad defensively, like getting beaten on the boards or turn the puck over, it's all "offensive dynamo, needs to improve defensively". Then when he strips the puck off someone who isn't Ovechkin no one says anything. It might take him a long, long time to get recognition for a Norris, but if he keeps up his play, he'll get some.
The problem is that his defensive gaffes happen more often than his great defensive plays. With that said he spends more time than either just playing a fairly solid defensive game now.

I think he's working out the kinks, but he's developing very well and there's no reason to believe that he won't at least have good defensive abilities. I don't think he'll ever be great because of his playstyle, but he could be good defensively.

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Old
12-31-2011, 08:30 AM
  #74
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It would be great to get Norris but IMO its more important to play great for Sens system. And if for it is better to have offensive Karlsson why change his play simply put to him somebody defensive and Sens play will be better.

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Old
12-31-2011, 09:29 AM
  #75
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The problem is that his defensive gaffes happen more often than his great defensive plays. With that said he spends more time than either just playing a fairly solid defensive game now.

I think he's working out the kinks, but he's developing very well and there's no reason to believe that he won't at least have good defensive abilities. I don't think he'll ever be great because of his playstyle, but he could be good defensively.
Not entirely true, I think it's just that the gaffs have a microscope on them because they directly result in a goal or scoring opportunity.

How many times has he given up the puck, only to steal it right back, or get beaten only to recover and take away the opportunity? Add these to the times he just breaks up a play or steals the puck, and it evens out, it's just that these plays rarely lead to a scoring chance 200 feet down the ice, so the get forgotten.

Granted, if he didn't do something boneheaded to begin with there wouldn't be the need for have his good defensive plays.

Anyhow, I just feel his bad defensive plays are exaggerated (although numerous), and the good ones forgotten (maybe because you expect them from a player of his caliber). Still lots of room for improvement though.

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