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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Defensemen)

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Old
12-23-2011, 11:06 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Defensemen)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
  • Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.
Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLYShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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12-23-2011, 11:09 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Vote 6 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 9PM EST on Tuesday 1/3/12 and 9PM EST on Thursday 1/5/12. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM me your votes during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 7 will be for places 31 through 35 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Rob Blake
Emile "Butch" Bouchard
Carl Brewer
Zdeno Chara
Lionel Conacher
Ebbie Goodfellow
Alexei Kasatonov
Jacques Laperriere
Guy Lapointe
Larry Murphy
Scott Niedermayer
Marcel Pronovost
Jack Stewart
J.C. Tremblay

Please note that you are voting for your top 10 of the 14 available candidates.

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12-24-2011, 12:04 AM
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VanIslander
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Blake?

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12-24-2011, 12:09 AM
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overpass
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I like seeing Chara up for voting at this point. I think he's currently the best defencemen in the world. At least half of this list was never in that conversation.

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12-24-2011, 12:16 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I like seeing Chara up for voting at this point. I think he's currently the best defencemen in the world. At least half of this list was never in that conversation.
Agree. I voted for Jack Stewart last round, but after I did, I wondered what made him better than Chara. Now we get to compare them.

Also glad to see Niedermayer drop to an appropriate level - Chara and Blake are really the guys he should be compared to.

I think Chara has probably surpassed Blake by now. Has he surpassed Niedermayer? Maybe.

Chara is definitely my favorite of the new candidates. Carl Brewer is my second favorite - i was very impressed by him when i was researching Horton.

At first glance, Larry Murphy is my least favorite of the new candidates - I just don't think he has the peak to be considered yet. Although to be fair to Larry, I remember the second half of his career more than the first half. Anxiously awaiting overpass's stats on him... Given how we brutalized Dit Clapper for having much of his peak at forward, it doesn't look good for Goodfellow for the next couple of rounds.

Rob Blake and Kasatonov seem like they belong with this group of candidates, but it's probably too early to add them


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12-24-2011, 12:36 AM
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Dreakmur
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Still no Moose Johnson or Hod Stuart, eh?

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12-24-2011, 12:48 AM
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overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Agree. I voted for Jack Stewart last round, but after I did, I wondered what made him better than Chara. Now we get to compare them.

Also glad to see Niedermayer drop to an appropriate level - Chara and Blake are really the guys he should be compared to.

I think Chara has probably surpassed Blake by now. Has he surpassed Niedermayer? Maybe.

Chara is definitely my favorite of the new candidates. Carl Brewer is my second favorite - i was very impressed by him when i was researching Horton.

At first glance, Larry Murphy is my least favorite of the new candidates - I just don't think he has the peak to be considered yet. Although to be fair to Larry, I remember the second half of his career more than the first half. Anxiously awaiting overpass's stats on him... Given how we brutalized Dit Clapper for having much of his peak at forward, it doesn't look good for Goodfellow for the next couple of rounds.

Rob Blake and Kasatonov seem like they belong with this group of candidates, but it's probably too early to add them
I won't post my stats for a couple of days, probably. But picking a prime for Murphy is going to be tough because, like you said, he barely had a peak. IIRC he had one or two big years in Pittsburgh that stood out, and then had about 20 good seasons.

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12-24-2011, 03:00 AM
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It's beginning to dawn on me that while I may have overvalued them both, two players I listed in the high 20s have yet to show up on the pooled list. Both are from very underrepresented populations so far. I have a feeling that my original list will be among those who differs most from the final list.

I'm liking Chara in this round. Since the day he learned to really make great use of his large frame (somewhere around the lockout season) and long reach he has been the most dominant defender in the world short of Lidström. In recent years I'd say he's overtaken that title from Lidström.

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12-24-2011, 10:19 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Agree. I voted for Jack Stewart last round, but after I did, I wondered what made him better than Chara. Now we get to compare them.

Also glad to see Niedermayer drop to an appropriate level - Chara and Blake are really the guys he should be compared to.

I think Chara has probably surpassed Blake by now. Has he surpassed Niedermayer? Maybe.

Chara is definitely my favorite of the new candidates. Carl Brewer is my second favorite - i was very impressed by him when i was researching Horton. At first glance, Larry Murphy is my least favorite of the new candidates - I just don't think he has the peak to be considered yet. Although to be fair to Larry, I remember the second half of his career more than the first half. Anxiously awaiting overpass's stats on him... Given how we brutalized Dit Clapper for having much of his peak at forward, it doesn't look good for Goodfellow for the next couple of rounds.

Rob Blake and Kasatonov seem like they belong with this group of candidates, but it's probably too early to add them
Chara is a very interesting case for me. Having watched him virtually every game he's played since coming to Boston, I can see how coaching, system, goaltending and teammates can change perception of a player. His first season under Dave Lewis as coach Chara was horrible. You could see that he had exceptional skills & strength but he was a turnover machine. Under Julien, with a system that everyone has bought into, Chara looks like a different player. He can be more agressive because of the defensive help he gets from his forwards and when he gets beat clean there is still Thomas or Rask in goal. Like many players already ahead of him on our list, he is now benefiting from his circumstances.

As for Carl Brewer, on my original list I had him one spot ahead Quackenbush.

Also think Blake, Kasatonov & Murphy will be near the bottom. But maybe I'll be persuaded to see things differently.

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12-24-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Still no Moose Johnson or Hod Stuart, eh?
Agreed.

I had Stuart ahead of the majority of this group (and a couple already in).

Thought Johnson would come up here also.

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12-24-2011, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Agreed.

I had Stuart ahead of the majority of this group (and a couple already in).

Thought Johnson would come up here also.
No doubt that Hod Stuart was a big fish in an extremely small pond but i honestly don't see him making the list for a couple of rounds at the very least if at all.

As a counterpoint Larry Murphy was arguably never one of the top 5 Dmen in the league but he was an awfully productive and useful player for a very long time.

Quite the variety of players to choose from this round and there are 2 guys making my top 5 after that it's pretty wide open.

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12-24-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Agree. I voted for Jack Stewart last round, but after I did, I wondered what made him better than Chara. Now we get to compare them.

Also glad to see Niedermayer drop to an appropriate level - Chara and Blake are really the guys he should be compared to.

I think Chara has probably surpassed Blake by now. Has he surpassed Niedermayer? Maybe.

Chara is definitely my favorite of the new candidates. Carl Brewer is my second favorite - i was very impressed by him when i was researching Horton.

At first glance, Larry Murphy is my least favorite of the new candidates - I just don't think he has the peak to be considered yet. Although to be fair to Larry, I remember the second half of his career more than the first half. Anxiously awaiting overpass's stats on him... Given how we brutalized Dit Clapper for having much of his peak at forward, it doesn't look good for Goodfellow for the next couple of rounds.

Rob Blake and Kasatonov seem like they belong with this group of candidates, but it's probably too early to add them
It will be very interesting to see how Chara does moving forward since he seems to be on course for a career year and might age very well. Brewer is another very interesting guy who had a very unusual career which matched his personality as well.

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12-24-2011, 12:50 PM
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It will be very interesting to see how Chara does moving forward since he seems to be on course for a career year and might age very well.
An interesting observation I once read about Chara is that unlike most players, who as they get older will lose their athletic advantage and begin to rely on the advantages of experience, Chara's advtanges come from attributes that won't weaken with age. While others might lose a step in their 30s, Chara never had a step to begin with... and he's not getting any shorter or scrawnier. So as he adds experience, he just keeps getting more effective.

It's an interesting thing to think about, anyway.

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12-24-2011, 12:59 PM
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Regular season adjusted stats for post-1967 defencemen


Career Stats
Player Start End GP EV% R-ON R-OFF $ESP $PPP PP% TmPP+ SH% TmSH+
Jacques Laperriere 1968 1973 435 47% 1.53 1.31 26 9 35% 1.22 73% 0.84
J.C. Tremblay 1968 1972 358 45% 1.37 1.33 32 22 69% 1.31 64% 0.85
Guy Lapointe 1969 1984 884 42% 1.41 1.66 31 28 64% 1.29 52% 0.76
Rod Langway 1979 1993 994 35% 1.29 1.20 20 3 10% 1.02 53% 0.83
Larry Murphy 1981 2001 1615 39% 1.20 1.02 34 25 65% 1.05 32% 0.92
Rob Blake 1990 2010 1270 37% 1.03 1.03 30 26 66% 1.04 50% 1.00
Scott Niedermayer 1992 2010 1263 39% 1.25 1.22 31 26 64% 1.04 40% 0.94
Zdeno Chara 1998 2011 928 40% 1.16 1.04 24 17 42% 1.05 52% 0.95

Prime Stats
Player Start End GP EV% R-ON R-OFF $ESP $PPP PP% TmPP+ SH% TmSH+
Jacques Laperriere 1968 1973 393 47% 1.56 1.31 26 9 36% 1.23 75% 0.83
J.C. Tremblay 1968 1972 358 45% 1.37 1.33 32 22 69% 1.31 64% 0.85
Guy Lapointe 1973 1979 499 46% 1.67 1.88 40 34 75% 1.32 68% 0.74
Rod Langway 1981 1989 673 38% 1.35 1.21 22 4 14% 0.99 57% 0.85
Larry Murphy 1992 1995 292 45% 1.38 1.05 45 28 80% 1.11 45% 0.94
Rob Blake 1998 2002 362 43% 1.11 1.08 40 32 79% 0.99 54% 0.99
Scott Niedermayer 2004 2007 242 39% 1.27 1.22 37 33 79% 1.13 47% 0.90
Zdeno Chara 2003 2011 622 41% 1.38 1.13 30 25 60% 1.05 53% 0.89

Stats Glossary
EV%: The percentage of the team’s even-strength goals the player was on the ice for, on a per-game basis.

R-ON: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is on the ice at even strength.

R-OFF: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is off the ice at even strength.

$ESP/S: Even strength points per season, adjusted to a 200 ESG per team-season scoring level.

$PPP/S: Power play points per season, adjusted to a 70 PPG per team-season scoring level and a league-average number of power play opportunities.

PP%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals for which the player was on the ice.

TmPP+: The strength of the player’s team on the power play. 1.00 is average, higher is better.

SH%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals against for which the player was on the ice.

TmSH+: The strength of the player’s team on the penalty kill. 1.00 is average, lower is better.


What does it all mean?

Added numbers and comments for Murphy, Blake, and Chara. The rest are repeats.

A note on the team-based stats - the lack of parity in the 1970s NHL made it easier to put up high numbers in these stats. EV% tended to be higher pre-1980, when teams went to 6 defencemen.

Jacques Laperriere and Jean-Claude Tremblay both starred before the NHL expanded in 1967-68, so these numbers don't capture their full careers or primes.

Based on what we have, Laperriere's numbers were slightly better than Tremblay's at even strength. Much of that comes from his 1972-73 season, when he posted a +78. (I assume he played with Savard, who was +70.) Both Laperriere and Tremblay played on the penalty kill, but Laperriere played more. In fact, Laperriere played a ton on the penalty kill. Keep in mind that was a little more common in the 1970s as compared to 1980 or later.

On the power play, Laperriere was on the second unit, and Tremblay played on the first unit and was more effective.

Tremblay broke out offensively in 1970-71 at age 32. The progression of his power play numbers are interesting.

YearPPP
1960-61 1
1961-62 1
1962-63 1
1963-64 3
1964-65 4
1965-66 10
1966-67 15
1967-68 12
1968-69 10
1969-70 12
1970-71 33
1971-72 28

He didn't play big minutes on the power play until 1970-71. And what happened when he finally did? Montreal went 24.8% and 27.1% on the power play in those seasons.

Season Tremblay PPP Montreal PP
1968-69 10 17.7%
1969-70 12 20.3%
1970-71 33 24.8%
1971-72 28 27.1%
1972-73 0 21.8%
1973-74 0 20.1%

Since I've done all this analysis on Tremblay's power play performance, I should also note that Montreal's penalty kill really dropped off in performance during Laperriere's injury-plagued final season, and also the following season after he retired.

Guy Lapointe was a major contributor in all situations to a great Montreal team. He's the first defenceman available who's team was better with him off the ice than on the ice at even strength, but that's partly because he was on the second pairing behind Savard and Robinson for much of his prime. On the power play and penalty kill, he was second to nobody on Montreal, playing a major role on both units. His prime was relatively short, at least when measured in regular season games.

Rod Langway was a pure defensive defenceman. Rarely played on the power play, played huge minutes on the penalty kill.

His even-strength plus-minus record is a good illustration of the effect role and strength of opposition can play in plus-minus, IMO. His last two seasons in Montreal playing second pairing behind Larry Robinson, he was +53 and +66. In his first two seasons in Washington as the top shutdown option, he was even and +14 - and won the Norris trophy both seasons. I have included those two final Montreal years in his "prime" stats above, so those are a mix of second-pairing minutes and first-pairing shutdown minutes.

Washington's power play goals against in the two seasons before Langway - 83, 67.
Washington's power play goals against in Langway's first two seasons - 53, 39.

It's hard to match the impact of the other defenceman here as a pure defensive defenceman. But if anyone could, it was Langway.

Larry Murphy was a good to very good defenceman for a very long time.

I've used his four years in Pittsburgh as his prime, because he played his biggest minutes there, on the first unit penalty kill and at even strength, and scored the most points there. Could be a combination of team situation and peak performance. But he was a star defender outside of those years too - picked for Canada Cups, all-star games, etc.

Murphy was typically a first-unit power play defenceman, but not a top-tier power play quarterback in usage or production. He played on the second unit penalty kill, or not on the PK at all. His plus-minus numbers relative to team were consistently good over his career. But it doesn't look like he was playing big minutes, and I suspect he wasn't playing the toughest minutes either. The exception would be with Detroit, when he was paired with Nicklas Lidstrom at the end of his career.

Rob Blake was a #1 defenceman for most of his long career. He was strong both offensively and defensively.

Blake's plus-minus numbers are unimpressive. There were mitigating circumstances, as he spent most of his career playing against the other team's top lines. But part of it was probably because his strengths lay in the offensive and defensive zones, not in transition.

On the power play, he was more of a shooter than a playmaker, scoring a lot of power play goals over his career. He was also a strong contributor on the penalty kill, putting his strength, physicality, and defensive skills to good use.

Scott Niedermayer spent most of his career as a second pairing defenceman on an excellent team, and finally became an elite defenceman in his 30s. An all-around contributor. Like Mark Howe, he wasn't elite on the PP or the PK. In fact, for much of his career in New Jersey he played on the second unit for both. At even strength, he carried the offence for the second pairing against second-tier matchups in New Jersey. In Anaheim he was paired with a strong defender on the top pairing and played the toughest matchups. During those Anaheim years, he was among the best defencemen in the league and a perennial Norris trophy candidate.

His prime was hard to isolate, as he didn't really step forward until after Scott Stevens retired, and then wasn't really the same after he took half a year off in 2007. I listed his 03/04 through 06/07 seasons as his prime, as they were an easily identified high point in his career.

Zdeno Chara had a unique development path. He started off as a big slug on the bottom pairing of a terrible team. After a couple of years, he developed into a good penalty killer and defender who could use his size, but with no offensive touch. After being traded to the Senators, he quickly became a top-pairing defenceman, developed his offensive game, and became one of the best shutdown defenceman in the league. And after going to Boston, he became a Norris trophy winner, perennial contender, captain of a Cup-winning team, and is currently arguably the best defenceman in the league.

Over the last decade, he has consistently played the toughest minutes on his teams at even strength, against top lines and starting in the defensive zone a lot. His teams still come out ahead in those situations, as his plus-minus numbers have been very good.

He has been a solid contributor on the power play, whether using his shot from the point or his size in front of the net. But, as Boston fans have seen, he is not an offensive catalyst or quarterback on the PP, more of a supporting piece.

He has been among the best penalty killers in the league, playing big minutes on consistently strong units.


Last edited by overpass: 12-24-2011 at 03:32 PM.
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12-24-2011, 01:05 PM
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An interesting observation I once read about Chara is that unlike most players, who as they get older will lose their athletic advantage and begin to rely on the advantages of experience, Chara's advtanges come from attributes that won't weaken with age. While others might lose a step in their 30s, Chara never had a step to begin with... and he's not getting any shorter or scrawnier. So as he adds experience, he just keeps getting more effective.

It's an interesting thing to think about, anyway.
As Chara ages, I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the Scott Stevens career path. He's more of a supporting offensive player than a real catalyst from the back end - his strength is in his own end. So if they want to cut his minutes back, he might just stop playing the power play, and focus on playing shutdown minutes and killing penalties.

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12-24-2011, 02:01 PM
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Overpass, why did you use 1993 to 2002 as Rob Blake's prime? All of All Star teams are from 1997-98 to 2001-02 - for this 5 year period, he was conisdered a legit superstar. He never received multiple Norris votes until 1997-98 (when he won) and got multiple votes for the Norris for the last time in 2003-04.


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12-24-2011, 02:03 PM
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Fun fact about Chara: In 2010-11, he led the NHL in plus-minus in the regular season, then went on and led the NHL in plus-minus in the playoffs. That can't be very common.

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12-24-2011, 02:42 PM
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Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration.

Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. For Lionel Conacher, I used Hart voting among defensemen to estimate a 3rd and 4th place finish before All Star Teams. Note also that we don't have much below the top 4-5 for much of Conacher's career.

Lionel Conacher (1926-1937): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 8th
Ebbie Goodfellow (1936-1941): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th*

Jack Stewart (1941-1950): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, 12th**
Butch Bouchard (1944-1956): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th

Marcel Pronovost (1957-1966): 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 11th
Carl Brewer (1959-1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***
Jacques Laperriere (1964-1974): 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th
JC Tremblay (1966-1972): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th****
Guy Lapointe (1973-1979): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Rob Blake (1998-2004): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Scott Niedermayer (1998-2009): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 10th, 12th
Zdeno Chara (2003-2011): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th*****

*From 1931-1934, Goodfellow finished 3rd and 4th in AS voting for Center. We don't have complete All-Star voting for 1935 but he wasn't an official All-Star. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.
**Stewart lost 2 prime years to World War 2
***Brewer spent prime seasons (aged 27-30) outside the NHL due to a feud with Punch Imlach. During his "free spirit" time, he was an All-Star at the World Championships among other accolades.
****Tremblay also won 2 Dennis A. Murphy Trophies for best defenseman in the WHA, was a 1st Team WHA All Star 3 Times, and a 2nd Team WHA All Star once).
*****For those of you not following the NHL this season, Chara is well on his way to another top 5 Norris finish, barring injury.

Obsevations:
  • Goodfellow won the Hart Trophy in 1940, but he received slightly fewer votes than Dit Clapper for the All-Star team. Goodfellow had 15 votes for 1st Team LD, 1 vote for 1st Team RD, 4 votes for 2nd Team LD, 5 votes for 2nd Team RD. Clapper had 5 votes for 1st Team LD, 16 votes for 1st Team RD, 3 votes for 2nd Team LD, and 1 vote for 2nd Team RD.
  • Butch Bouchard almost rivals Niedermayer in terms of shortness of peak, and his 4 All Star finishes were during the 2 worst War years and the 2 years following. After 1948, Bouchard only has the 1 6th place finish in 1956.
  • Jacques Laperriere had an injury-shortened career and his team won in the playoffs when he was injured. But he got Norris votes almost every season of his career.
  • Hard to know what to make of Tremblay's WHA years
  • Interesting comparison between Niedermayer, Blake, and Chara


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12-24-2011, 03:12 PM
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Non-NHL accomplishments

Rob Blake
  • Best Defenseman at the Olympics (1998)

Carl Brewer
  • World Championships All Star (1967)

Alexei Kasatonov
  • 1st Team Soviet League All Star (1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988)
  • Highest finish in Soviet Player of the Year voting: 5th
  • IIHF Best Defenseman (1983)
  • World Championships All Star (1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1991)
  • Canada Cup All Star (1981)
  • In 2002, the IIHF ranked him the 9th best Soviet Player All-Time at the Olympics (3rd among defensemen behind Slava Fetisov and Vitaly Davydov)

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Old
12-24-2011, 03:31 PM
  #20
MXD
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Wow...

I'll say it again, but I'm totally flabbergasted that two guys that were the best D-Men of their era aren't even available for voting yet.

Will there be a way to tweak the list at the end? I mean, some things really make no sense whatsoever.

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Old
12-24-2011, 03:33 PM
  #21
overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Overpass, why did you use 1993 to 2002 as Rob Blake's prime? All of All Star teams are from 1997-98 to 2001-02 - for this 5 year period, he was conisdered a legit superstar. He never received multiple Norris votes until 1997-98 (when he won) and got multiple votes for the Norris for the last time in 2003-04.
I don't remember exactly why I did it, as I ran the numbers a couple of months ago. I should have gone through to 2004 if I was going with the long prime.

I edited the numbers to make it 1998 to 2002. It's similar to what I used for Niedermayer and Murphy.

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Old
12-24-2011, 03:39 PM
  #22
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Wow...

I'll say it again, but I'm totally flabbergasted that two guys that were the best D-Men of their era aren't even available for voting yet.

Will there be a way to tweak the list at the end? I mean, some things really make no sense whatsoever.
I only see one defenseman who was the best of his era who isn't available yet, and that was a very weak era.

Regardless, my list of guys who haven't appeared yet who I plan on voting for as soon as they do is now up to 3.

If you can think of a fair way to tweak the list after it is completed, please propose it in the rules discussion thread. Otherwise, we probably won't update the list until 2016 or so, as we cycle through the other positions.

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Old
12-24-2011, 04:17 PM
  #23
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Wow...

I'll say it again, but I'm totally flabbergasted that two guys that were the best D-Men of their era aren't even available for voting yet.

Will there be a way to tweak the list at the end? I mean, some things really make no sense whatsoever.
Lots of things don't make sense to individual voters but this is a consensus project. your individual list at the end, as everyone else's. will list our preferences before we started this project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I only see one defenseman who was the best of his era who isn't available yet, and that was a very weak era.

Regardless, my list of guys who haven't appeared yet who I plan on voting for as soon as they do is now up to 3.

If you can think of a fair way to tweak the list after it is completed, please propose it in the rules discussion thread. Otherwise, we probably won't update the list until 2016 or so, as we cycle through the other positions.
I don't know that there is a fair way to go around the process we already established.

Without knowing the 2 guys that MXD is talking about I'm assuming that they either played in very weak eras and/or had short careers.

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Old
12-24-2011, 05:11 PM
  #24
DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I like seeing Chara up for voting at this point. I think he's currently the best defencemen in the world. At least half of this list was never in that conversation.
But is Chara being better then Weber, Keith, Green, and a 41 year old version of Lidstrom all that notable in the grand scheme of things? It's certainly a positive to his record that he's the best dman out there right now, but there are eras that I would struggle to say he would belong in the conversation to be in the top 3 looking at things.

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Old
12-24-2011, 05:12 PM
  #25
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Wow...

I'll say it again, but I'm totally flabbergasted that two guys that were the best D-Men of their era aren't even available for voting yet.

Will there be a way to tweak the list at the end? I mean, some things really make no sense whatsoever.
I'm sure there are things that make no sense to every voter.

I think we may all need to be aware our indivdual lists are not the one's that are "correct".

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