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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Defensemen)

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01-05-2012, 01:39 PM
  #276
Canadiens1958
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Dunc Munro

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Harry Watson was one of many amateur players who was enshrined from before all the best players played professional. There are probably 40 such players.

Many on the HOH board thought Howe was like Tremblay and Brewer - punished for playing in the WHA - and that was the only reason it took him so long to be enshrined. I know you disagreed, but it definitely is a different situation from Conacher right?

As for "what they accomplished being replicated," Tremblay was probably the #1 defenseman on a dynasty - I don't think that's been accommplished too often. Edit: I realize he did have his issues like you said, but you're definitely exaggerating when you say his accomplishments have been replicated "fairly often."
Lesser players from the 1924 Olympic team went to the NHL - Dunc Munro.

The "was probably" captures the J.C. Tremblay dilemma. Especially when the team was better served with Terry Harper facing Bobby Hull. After 1972 if Tremblay does not go to the WHA he gets traded. He was demonstrably the 4th best dman on the team behind Savard, Laperriere and Lapointe with Robinson in the wings, so the WHA is not a factor.

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01-05-2012, 01:47 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Lesser players from the 1924 Olympic team went to the NHL - Dunc Munro.

The "was probably" captures the J.C. Tremblay dilemma. Especially when the team was better served with Terry Harper facing Bobby Hull. After 1972 if Tremblay does not go to the WHA he gets traded. He was demonstrably the 4th best dman on the team behind Savard, Laperriere and Lapointe with Robinson in the wings, so the WHA is not a factor.
Tremblay was 3rd in Norris voting behind Orr and Park in 1970-71.

In 1971-72, he only got a handful of Norris votes, finishing 5th but with 1st and 2nd place Orr and Park dominating the voting. But Tremblay was the only Montreal defenseman to receive multiple Norris votes.

He jumped to the WHA in 1972-73.

Were the Norris voters fooled by something (offensive stats maybe)? Or was Tremblay projected to be on the decline at the time?

At this point, Laperriere's career was winding down and Serge Savard was struggling with injuries, right?

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01-05-2012, 02:01 PM
  #278
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Another article on Conacher's departure from Pittsburgh, from an "online museum" of Pittsburgh hockey history. They appear to have done quite a bit of homework on this matter.

http://pittsburghhockey.net/other-te...gh-pirates-nhl

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News from training camp centered around Lionel Conacher. He was supposed to have reported on October 25 with the other Pirates. He came to camp on November 5. Conacher said he had been on a hunting trip and had received his report-to-camp notice only on the previous day. This clearly didn’t fly with Cleghorn. The Pittsburgh Press reported it was certain Cleghorn gave Conacher “a severe reprimand” when he arrived. Conacher was also fined $200.

...

Cleghorn demanded that the Pirates’ play improve, or more serious action would follow. The Pittsburgh Press said Cleghorn knew the Pirates had been too careless and had not taken their work seriously. In their next two games, however, the Pirates remained flat. A 5-2 loss to the Canadiens and a 2-2 tie with the Maroons followed on Duquesne Garden ice. During a one-week layoff after the Maroons game, the Pirates sent team captain Conacher packing in a very one-sided trade.

On December 16, Conacher was dealt to the New York Americans. All that the Pirates received for their highly talented (if disgruntled) captain was $2,000 plus 32-year-old defenseman Charlie Langlois, whose NHL career did not last past 1928. In contrast, the 25-year-old Conacher would star in the NHL through 1937 and make the first or second NHL all star teams three times. The Boston Globe said that Conacher was unhappy in Pittsburgh because he was not chosen to manage the team. The job instead went to Odie Cleghorn, who, the Globe said, made matters worse by trying unsuccessfully for a year to trade Conacher to the Boston Bruins for his brother Sprague. (Interestingly, when Cleghorn left the Pirates in 1929 in a bitter split with the new management of ex-boxer Benny Leonard, he would claim to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that Conacher had been traded against his wishes.) Whichever story was closer to the truth, when Conacher came to training camp late, it was perhaps the final nail in the coffin. It was a swap that would haunt the Pirates. Conacher had starred for Pittsburgh since he came to the city to play for the Yellow Jackets in 1923. From all indications, he was not a good fit with Odie Cleghorn. But if he had to be traded, the Pirates should have received far more than Langlois in return. Hockey writers have justifiably called this exchange one of the worst in NHL history. Conacher had elevated the Yellow Jackets to championship status with his presence and that of the players he recruited for the team. The Pirates who followed in the Jackets’ wake were of playoff caliber as a result. The trade of Conacher for Langlois in retrospect was a significant part of a chain of events that sent the Pirates on a downward spiral. It had to be insulting to Conacher and a keenly felt loss to the players who stayed behind.
The site is so well-researched that I have to think the above is all fairly accurate.

Also, it includes a nice photo of the Pittsburgh lineup that season. Conacher is on the far left... you get a sense of just how big he was compared to the average player of the day.


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01-05-2012, 02:31 PM
  #279
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Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Tremblay was 3rd in Norris voting behind Orr and Park in 1970-71.

In 1971-72, he only got a handful of Norris votes, finishing 5th but with 1st and 2nd place Orr and Park dominating the voting. But Tremblay was the only Montreal defenseman to receive multiple Norris votes.

He jumped to the WHA in 1972-73.

Were the Norris voters fooled by something (offensive stats maybe)? Or was Tremblay projected to be on the decline at the time?

At this point, Laperriere's career was winding down and Serge Savard was struggling with injuries, right?
Yet in 1971 he was a 1st team AST ahead of Brad Park.

Laperriere was trying to overcome the injury bug as was Savard. Issue is the recognition of who plays which roles and minutes when healthy within the context of the era and the team.

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01-05-2012, 03:50 PM
  #280
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Votes received from: BiLLYShOE1721; Canadiens1958; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hockey Outsider; JaysCyYoung; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe;

Votes needed from: chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dreakmur; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; McNuts; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

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