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Our Penalty Kill - Who to blame?

View Poll Results: Who is responsible for our horrible PK in the past 4 years?
Wilson 24 23.30%
Wilson AND the Assistant Coaches 40 38.83%
Goaltending 7 6.80%
Players/Face-off percentage 15 14.56%
Other (Please specify) 17 16.50%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-25-2011, 05:29 PM
  #1
Richardbro
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Our Penalty Kill - Who to blame?

With the recent re-signing of Wilson, I keep hearing that it's inexcusable that he hasn't improved the PK in 4 years.

It's quite obvious that our PK has been brutal for the past four seasons, anyone can tell you that. However, if anyone is to blame for that, I think it's the goaltenders we have had in the past four years.

Poor goaltending has really hurt on in the PK. It's arguably the most important part of the PK for crying out loud. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that it's Wilson's fault for our PK being brutal.

Raycroft, Toskala, Gustavsson and Giguere all played below average goaltending here in Toronto; ESPECIALLY on the PK. They all had their contributions to our league-worst PK. How can you honestly blame Wilson or the assis. coaches for the PK when these goalies are allowing terrible goals?

Even Reimer has been subject to allowing some bad goals on the PK (1st Buffalo game this year, etc.).

I personally think blaming Wilson is ridiculous.

So my question to you is, who is the real blame for our piss poor PK?

My answer is obviously poor goaltending.

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Old
12-25-2011, 05:32 PM
  #2
SeenSchenn2
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Everyone from Wilson - Reimer IMO.

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12-25-2011, 05:39 PM
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Epictetus
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So wait, in the last 4 years we've had one constant (coaching), and 5 variables (goaltending), yet you somehow still conclude it's the 5 variables fault for a 'piss poor penalty kill'. Interesting.

Thought I would just add another point. Since you say (in bolded), goaltending is arguably the most important part of the PK; using your logic, if the goaltending improves the penalty kill will improve. Yet, if this is true, then Ron Wilson should not be credited for the improvement of the penalty kill but instead, the goaltender since they are currently being blamed for the 'piss poor penalty kill'. Just want to make sure we are consistent here.

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12-25-2011, 05:48 PM
  #4
Jeffler
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If Dallas Eakins' penalty kill is so much more amazing than Wilson's (well, Cronin's), why do they literally use the exact same strategy?

It's players relative to where they are. Our AHL penalty killers are so good because roster wise, the Marlies are the best two way team in the league.

With the Leafs, they're not as good relative to the league. There's not a lot of NHL PK specialists on this team by any means. Add shot confidence and it's no shock that the PK is so bad.

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12-25-2011, 05:51 PM
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It's either Wilson or Burke.

Wilson if he can't coach it.

Burke if he hasn't give Wilson the right players.

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12-25-2011, 05:51 PM
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12-25-2011, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffler View Post
If Dallas Eakins' penalty kill is so much more amazing than Wilson's (well, Cronin's), why do they literally use the exact same strategy?

It's players relative to where they are. Our AHL penalty killers are so good because roster wise, the Marlies are the best two way team in the league.

With the Leafs, they're not as good relative to the league. There's not a lot of NHL PK specialists on this team by any means. Add shot confidence and it's no shock that the PK is so bad.
Eakins was on the fan the other day discussing how much different the PK was. Maybe the 5-on-5 systems are the same, but Eakins says differently for the PK.

Obviously I haven't watched the Marlies more than twice this year, but I didn't bother to analyze the PK

Edit: Here ya go.

http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?cont...19_124245_3204

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Old
12-25-2011, 06:00 PM
  #8
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Whats to blame for our bad Pk? 2 Things off and on the ice.

On the ice: Defensive collapses, Bad goaltending

The first post does a good job explaining the bad goaltending. Our defense, which is good has a lot of defensive meltdowns, just being out of position, not clearing pucks....... What its really missing is that 99.9% guy who is so responsible and conservative always looking for the cheap and smart play and always considering and faithfully believing that "goals against > goals for" is always the right mentality. This type of player will eventually be seen as a leader and role model and rub off on all other Forwards and Defense making the team more efficient over time.... For us, I think Luke Schenn was supposed to be this type of player but has not matured that way yet.

Off the ice: Leafs nation

its hard playing as a hockey player (especially goalies) for Toronto in crucial moments of the game. It must be really hard dealing with the pressure and consequences of potentially making errors in the game and the whiplash that would bring for the player. I think it eventually impacts our teams playing level on the ice, this applies for all hockey players but for Leafs nation a lot, for the leafs its two extremes with no in between which could explain for our high pp

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Old
12-25-2011, 06:06 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffler View Post
If Dallas Eakins' penalty kill is so much more amazing than Wilson's (well, Cronin's), why do they literally use the exact same strategy?

It's players relative to where they are. Our AHL penalty killers are so good because roster wise, the Marlies are the best two way team in the league.

With the Leafs, they're not as good relative to the league. There's not a lot of NHL PK specialists on this team by any means. Add shot confidence and it's no shock that the PK is so bad.
Do the Marlies use their best players on the PK?

My guess is, we need to start using our better players with better hockey sense on the PK. Not that I'm blaming the players, because the coach plays a key role in this.

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12-25-2011, 06:50 PM
  #10
Aplayaz2000
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I blame the players.
Even when they do get a chance to clear... they just do this half ass lob which doesn't go anywhere.

Is it so hard to just lift it to the middle? Speak to Gardiner for a lesson...

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Old
12-25-2011, 07:07 PM
  #11
Hunter74
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Peca on TSN blamed the players saying they aren't committed to really killing the penalties. Something along the lines of the players not working hard, blocking shots and executing the coaches game plan like they should.

Also Schenn messes up a clearing attempt atleast 3 times a game and its usually on the same PK.

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Old
12-25-2011, 08:00 PM
  #12
Thomas Malthus
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Our PK is a perfect storm of failure:
1. Goaltending is poor.
2. Players fail to clear, block, etc.
3. Coach doesn't have a good strategy.

I think they're all connected but I do believe we have players that are capable of manning a successful PK. I think it starts with the right system that players can buy into and then when they execute the goaltender faces easier shots and has more confidence.

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Old
12-25-2011, 08:26 PM
  #13
The Viper
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i thought our PK was amazing

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12-25-2011, 08:38 PM
  #14
Tak7
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I think I'm to blame for the Leafs PK woes.

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Old
12-25-2011, 08:52 PM
  #15
Censored23
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It is definately a combination of all the above. Here are a few things ive noticed while the Leafs were on the PK this year.

1. No strategy: They seem to be just trying to play the standard box formation, with no strategy being applied to pressure certain players when they have the puck. There was one instance this year where the team on the PP had a player break his stick while in the Leafs zone, and had gone to the bench to get a new one. During this time, the teams were basically 4 on 4, but no pressure was applied to take advantage of this.

2. Positional failures: How many times will the Leafs allow other team's players to sneak in score either from the high slot, or right beside the net with a cross-crease pass? That is just poor positional play by the Leafs, regardless of whether there's a "system" or not.

3. Goaltending: The start of the season, we saw some great goaltending from Reimer. He was positionally sound, and the results showed in the standings. After he went down, everything went down hill, and fast. Many, many soft goals were allowed, especially on the PK. The only way the Leafs got any wins was to overcome this by outscoring their opponents (well, duh...i know). The thing is, why beat a team 5-4 when you could have beaten them 2-1 instead. It just puts unnecessary pressure on the offense.


Just my opinion, tho

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12-25-2011, 09:02 PM
  #16
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If we had a top 10 p.k we are likely 6 points better... reality is we have a terrible p.k, we are out scoring our woes some nights and other nights we are losing games because of it. We are really a 7 to 10th in the East... Just gotta hope even with our terrible P.K we can be 7 or 8

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Old
12-25-2011, 10:08 PM
  #17
Erdinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Do the Marlies use their best players on the PK?

My guess is, we need to start using our better players with better hockey sense on the PK. Not that I'm blaming the players, because the coach plays a key role in this.
Agree with this. Notice the difference when Kessell and Lupul are out there with the other team's goalie pulled than when the plugs are being used. The other team has to respect their talent and hockey sense and so can't pressure so much in the Leaf end.

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Old
12-25-2011, 10:14 PM
  #18
Guy Boucher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Censored23 View Post
1. No strategy: They seem to be just trying to play the standard box formation, with no strategy being applied to pressure certain players when they have the puck. There was one instance this year where the team on the PP had a player break his stick while in the Leafs zone, and had gone to the bench to get a new one. During this time, the teams were basically 4 on 4, but no pressure was applied to take advantage of this.
Not true. They use a diamond formation on the PK, albeit a poorly executed diamond formation.

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12-25-2011, 10:15 PM
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Leo Trollmarov
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I may be way off and may get some heat for this, but I think Burke should get a bit of blame, at least partially.

Here's how I see it. We have had attrotious pk for many years. This isn't something new. In any organization, if you have issues that cannot be fixed by your internal team, you bring in a specialist to fix the issue. To me that is what Burke should do. Find someone (I think assistant coach over player to start) to right the ship in that area. Yes the current players and coaching staff should get blame as well, as they are weak on the pk as a team, but Burke should be taking action at this point. And this comes from a big Burke supporter.

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Old
12-25-2011, 10:17 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
Agree with this. Notice the difference when Kessell and Lupul are out there with the other team's goalie pulled than when the plugs are being used. The other team has to respect their talent and hockey sense and so can't pressure so much in the Leaf end.
Plus we don't want Kessel and Lupul blocking shots. If they break a hand or foot blocking one we are in some trouble.

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12-25-2011, 10:18 PM
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Midna
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ok, ok you got me. It was my fault.

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12-25-2011, 10:32 PM
  #22
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ok, ok you got me. It was my fault.
We do know how some of the press like to blame the lost sheep. But I can't imagine anyone on this board would stoop to such a level.

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12-25-2011, 11:37 PM
  #23
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It'll get better the more Reimer plays.

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12-26-2011, 12:59 AM
  #24
Nasty Nazem
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I think one of the biggest faults with the PK is all the criss-cross passing they allow where teams are just hammering one-timers after another and sometimes we just leave guys with hard shots wide open to take. They need to do a better job getting in the passing lanes.

They also get very passive once the opposition has set up and don't put any pressure on the point man at all. And sometimes, they end up overplaying their man a lot, especially along the boards. It seems like timing might a problem as they need to be selective when to be aggressive and when to fall back. At times, they also end up screening their own goalie trying to block a shot or just leave the man there for screens and easy tip-ins/tap-ins.

It doesn't help that the goaltending doesn't instill any confidence whatsoever on the PK.

There has been one constant over the past 4 seasons so I think a lot of the blame should go on him but the players have done a terrible job on the PK in terms of reading plays, winning battles etc...

The blame should fall on players, coaches and maybe even the management since this issue still hasn't been addressed despite how awful they have been for years. It baffles me this team can't even manage to be average by some fluke.

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Old
12-26-2011, 04:48 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
So wait, in the last 4 years we've had one constant (coaching), and 5 variables (goaltending), yet you somehow still conclude it's the 5 variables fault for a 'piss poor penalty kill'. Interesting.
And without further examination this is perfectly plausible. When you're trying to look cleaver, confounding correlation with causation is to be avoided.

Hint: The mechanism proposed is simple: bad goaltending has made for a bad PK in Toronto. The evidence is that the Leafs have had bad goaltending, and whether or not that was provided by 5 guys or 1 guy makes no difference. The logic is fine, argue the mechanism.

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