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Game 33 • Anaheim Ducks at San Jose Sharks • 7:30 P.M. (early GDT is early edition)

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Old
12-27-2011, 01:29 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
This is also true, the reffing was abysmal. I hate to blame reffing, and that was hardly the primary issue, but it was beyond bad for sure.
While on one hand I get that the team gave up a couple of weak goals and had periods of domination that ought to have ended up in goals, in a game like that, special teams can make all the difference. The PP was firing on all cylinders, so if it had 1-2 more chances like it should have had, there's a good chance it would have converted and changed the outcome of the game. So I'd say it was as big an issue as anything else.

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12-27-2011, 01:42 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
This is also true, the reffing was abysmal. I hate to blame reffing, and that was hardly the primary issue, but it was beyond bad for sure.
I called the style on this one. Typical Devo game, very loose.

We may not want tighter calls until the PK is squared away. Just take the lumps on the calls favoring the Sharks that aren't made with the way the sum of PK/PP is going.

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12-27-2011, 01:59 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I called the style on this one. Typical Devo game, very loose.

We may not want tighter calls until the PK is squared away. Just take the lumps on the calls favoring the Sharks that aren't made with the way the sum of PK/PP is going.
I'm not sure how you can say what happened favored us, given that they had more PPs than we did and from what I saw were deserving of more infractions than we were. I would have liked the tighter calling so we got our proper balance of PPs.

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12-27-2011, 02:07 PM
  #504
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I certainly can, and do. I saw a lot of effort, as usual, at the very end of the game when it was too little too late. There were sporadic bursts of effort throughout the game, followed by longer periods of lackadaisical "I drank too much egg-nog" hockey. That was not a 60 minute effort by any stretch of the imagination.
Funny thing is, good play by one team often makes the other team look like they're not giving effort. As does system at times. Defensive responsibility often looks like less effort, because there's less attack. I wouldn't confuse conservative play with a lack of effort. When the other team is doing a good job with puck possession, the other team will often play a defense first-counter attack game and, while it may appear they're not giving effort, they're really just playing smart. Save for a bit of an off game by the goalie last night and some bad Sharks bounces in front of the Ducks net, we'd all be talking about a dominating Sharks win today.

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12-27-2011, 02:20 PM
  #505
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Looked to me like Nemo lost it for em while keeping em in it at the same time.

Two of those goals should have been stopped, but at least 2-3 shots should have been goals as well.

Offense needed to bail him out for the 2 softys, but couldn't find a way unfortunately.

What the hell is it with the crappy Ducks having the Sharks number. They really need to be beating the bottom of the barrel teams that are in their division.

0-3 vs the Ducks is just not acceptable.

Not usually a fan of griping about the zebras, but there were some real blatant missed calls last night. Sharks did have a chance to tie it on the PP late though, so can't complain too much.

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12-27-2011, 02:24 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Funny thing is, good play by one team often makes the other team look like they're not giving effort. As does system at times. Defensive responsibility often looks like less effort, because there's less attack. I wouldn't confuse conservative play with a lack of effort. When the other team is doing a good job with puck possession, the other team will often play a defense first-counter attack game and, while it may appear they're not giving effort, they're really just playing smart. Save for a bit of an off game by the goalie last night and some bad Sharks bounces in front of the Ducks net, we'd all be talking about a dominating Sharks win today.
I have been noticing this for a while, and I wonder how much of this plays into how some fans feel about the team's effort. If a team gets its cycle going but the defense plays it perfectly, preventing the outlet pass and never losing position, is it lackadaisical play or responsible play? Is it bad for a team to do that versus make an aggressive-yet-risky play for the puck?

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12-27-2011, 02:27 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Funny thing is, good play by one team often makes the other team look like they're not giving effort. As does system at times. Defensive responsibility often looks like less effort, because there's less attack. I wouldn't confuse conservative play with a lack of effort. When the other team is doing a good job with puck possession, the other team will often play a defense first-counter attack game and, while it may appear they're not giving effort, they're really just playing smart. Save for a bit of an off game by the goalie last night and some bad Sharks bounces in front of the Ducks net, we'd all be talking about a dominating Sharks win today.
I agree with this for the most part. I think the Ducks played pretty well overall but they really pounced on Sharks mistakes. Jumbo's stupid turnover was the one glaring mistake that bothers me. They had numbers and momentum going towards the net and he pulls up and gets stripped and Bobby Ryan scores on a breakaway. Sbisa's goal was saveable but if the Sharks wouldn't have over committed that play never would have happened. Cogs goal was just weird and a bad goal for Niemi to give up at the point in the game.

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12-27-2011, 02:44 PM
  #508
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Would like to see Greiss get a start soon. This team has yet to gel and show itself ready to be an elite team. The calendar is about to turn and they need to start ramping up the play.

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12-27-2011, 11:46 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
I'm not sure how you can say what happened favored us, given that they had more PPs than we did and from what I saw were deserving of more infractions than we were. I would have liked the tighter calling so we got our proper balance of PPs.
I am saying that the call style favors the Sharks not the game per se. There were a few uncalled infractions and I do think the balance of non-calls went against the Sharks in this particular game. Until the PK settles out, a looser style favors the Sharks generically. Coaches look to add PK and PP percentages. If it doesn't exceed 100, you want loose calls. If it exceeds 100, you can go for tighter calls. Some coaches consider 105 as the benchmark as the # necessary to make the playoffs.

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12-28-2011, 12:32 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I called the style on this one. Typical Devo game, very loose.

We may not want tighter calls until the PK is squared away. Just take the lumps on the calls favoring the Sharks that aren't made with the way the sum of PK/PP is going.
At some point we are going to have to say the Sharks PK is working well enough to not worry about a tight called game.

Last 10 games

Wild 9th PP In League
1-2 (50%)

Stars 22nd PP In League
5-6 (83%)

Blues 16th PP In League
4-5 (80%)

Chicago 8th PP In League
3-3 (100%)

Colorado 3rd PP In League
13th 4-5 (80%)
15th 3-5 (60%)

Edmonton 4rth PP In League
3-3 (100%)

Tampa 24th PP In League
4-4 (100%)

Kings 22nd PP In League
3-4 (75%)

Ducks 16th PP In League
2-2 (100%)


Last 10 32-39 (82%) Good for 15th in the league

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Old
12-28-2011, 12:41 AM
  #511
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You can't draw a single meaningful conclusion about a team's PKing ability from their "efficiency" over 10 games. The Sharks have spent ~60 minutes on the penalty kill over those 10 games. Would you evaluate a team based on their goals for/against in a single game? San Jose allows the second-most shots against per minute on the PK in the league; that hasn't changed since pretty early in the season and as long as that doesn't improve there can't be much hope for their future PK performance.

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12-28-2011, 12:43 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
You can't draw a single meaningful conclusion about a team's PKing ability from their "efficiency" over 10 games. The Sharks have spent ~60 minutes on the penalty kill over those 10 games. Would you evaluate a team based on their goals for/against in a single game? San Jose allows the second-most shots against per minute on the PK in the league; that hasn't changed since pretty early in the season and as long as that doesn't improve there can't be much hope for their future PK performance.
Oh FFS, let's just wait until after the seasons over and analyze it then.

kthxbye.

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12-28-2011, 02:44 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
At some point we are going to have to say the Sharks PK is working well enough to not worry about a tight called game.

Last 10 games

Wild 9th PP In League
1-2 (50%)

Stars 22nd PP In League
5-6 (83%)

Blues 16th PP In League
4-5 (80%)

Chicago 8th PP In League
3-3 (100%)

Colorado 3rd PP In League
13th 4-5 (80%)
15th 3-5 (60%)

Edmonton 4rth PP In League
3-3 (100%)

Tampa 24th PP In League
4-4 (100%)

Kings 22nd PP In League
3-4 (75%)

Ducks 16th PP In League
2-2 (100%)


Last 10 32-39 (82%) Good for 15th in the league
Still a small sample but . . . I did notice they are bringing more pressure on the points.

I'd look particularly at Det., Chi, Vanc and secondarily at Edm. and Col. The first 3 are very likely to be potential playoff opponents. All have effective PPs. 10 games is too small, but I have seen improvement with one exception, Niemi. Rebound control and slow movement. I finally figured why Marleau is effective at PK, puck recovery and certainty of getting it out. Coverage not so great.

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12-28-2011, 12:12 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
You can't draw a single meaningful conclusion about a team's PKing ability from their "efficiency" over 10 games. The Sharks have spent ~60 minutes on the penalty kill over those 10 games. Would you evaluate a team based on their goals for/against in a single game? San Jose allows the second-most shots against per minute on the PK in the league; that hasn't changed since pretty early in the season and as long as that doesn't improve there can't be much hope for their future PK performance.
Are you aware of the old saying that 'your best penalty killer needs to be your goalie'?

I think you need to change your screen name to HAL.

The PK has been a lot better the last handful of games and you can tell just by watching it. Don't need stats to figure it out. They are playing more aggressively and more cohesively. A good power player requires the 4 guys on the ice to be in synch and work as a unit. They weren't doing that early in the season and they are doing a much better job at it now. If that continues, the PK will remain hot like it has the last 10 games.

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12-28-2011, 12:24 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Are you aware of the old saying that 'your best penalty killer needs to be your goalie'?

I think you need to change your screen name to HAL.

The PK has been a lot better the last handful of games and you can tell just by watching it. Don't need stats to figure it out. They are playing more aggressively and more cohesively. A good power player requires the 4 guys on the ice to be in synch and work as a unit. They weren't doing that early in the season and they are doing a much better job at it now. If that continues, the PK will remain hot like it has the last 10 games.
I actually agree with both of you, if that's possible. The Sharks PK does look better, but it's still allowing a LOT of shots and I would attribute a lot of the improvement as better play by Niemi. The Sharks are still regularly allowing cross crease passes and easy zone entries. The improved play by the team and the goalie will improve the situation, but I still think the strategy is bad and will only allow them to improve so much.

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12-28-2011, 12:35 PM
  #516
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Niemi has been fantastic for the past several weeks. He wasn't great tonight. Who gives a ****? Of all the guys on the team, he probably has off nights the least often. Give him a break.
Niemi has been good. But, in this game, he let 2 shots go by he should have stopped. Hiller stopped everything in his control. If Niemi stops those shots, the Sharks win 2-1 and he's the hero. And with the standings being as tight as they are, Niemi needs to make those saves.

At your work, reguardless of how you've done the past few weeks, if you don't do your job right that day, they call you out. Same goes for a pro athlete.

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12-28-2011, 01:25 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Are you aware of the old saying that \'your best penalty killer needs to be your goalie\'?

I think you need to change your screen name to HAL.

The PK has been a lot better the last handful of games and you can tell just by watching it. Don\'t need stats to figure it out. They are playing more aggressively and more cohesively. A good power player requires the 4 guys on the ice to be in synch and work as a unit. They weren\'t doing that early in the season and they are doing a much better job at it now. If that continues, the PK will remain hot like it has the last 10 games.
I might believe that convenient little axiom if SV% on the penalty kill didnt vary erratically from season to season for every goalie in the league.

If Niemi/Greiss had posted a league-average PK SV% thus far (around .881 the past few seasons) the Sharks would have allowed an average of 7 goals against per 60 minutes of time shorthanded. So instead of allowing goals against on the PK at the third-highest rate in the NHL, the Sharks would be eighth-worst. They would have allowed about 3 fewer goals this season, roughly worth one point in the standings. Whoop de ****ing do.

Again, the Sharks have played 160 minutes on the penalty kill all season long. Judging a team on their goal-based results over that tiny a sample size is foolish. The thing to be concerned about is the rate at which the Sharks are allowing shots against (and, by proxy, scoring chances against) on the penalty kill, second-worst in the NHL. The SV% will inevitably wax and wane as it always does.

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12-28-2011, 02:39 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
I might believe that convenient little axiom if SV% on the penalty kill didnt vary erratically from season to season for every goalie in the league.

If Niemi/Greiss had posted a league-average PK SV% thus far (around .881 the past few seasons) the Sharks would have allowed an average of 7 goals against per 60 minutes of time shorthanded. So instead of allowing goals against on the PK at the third-highest rate in the NHL, the Sharks would be eighth-worst. They would have allowed about 3 fewer goals this season, roughly worth one point in the standings. Whoop de ****ing do.

Again, the Sharks have played 160 minutes on the penalty kill all season long. Judging a team on their goal-based results over that tiny a sample size is foolish. The thing to be concerned about is the rate at which the Sharks are allowing shots against (and, by proxy, scoring chances against) on the penalty kill, second-worst in the NHL. The SV% will inevitably wax and wane as it always does.
Greiss doesn't have enough games to get PK SV% as significant, but what about Niemi's career #'s vs. league? Also, I have noted that Niemi's rebound control is subpar. One of the stats sites had a SV% on second chance shots. It would be interesting to compare Niemi's #'s vs the league on that issue. Subpar rebound control will also result in more shots against on PK as the puck is not going to an empty corner or directly to a teammate's stick or being frozen for a faceoff. The second shot SV% also had raw numbers where a comparison could be made between Niemi and other goalies on total number of second chances.

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12-28-2011, 05:21 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
I might believe that convenient little axiom if SV% on the penalty kill didnt vary erratically from season to season for every goalie in the league.

If Niemi/Greiss had posted a league-average PK SV% thus far (around .881 the past few seasons) the Sharks would have allowed an average of 7 goals against per 60 minutes of time shorthanded. So instead of allowing goals against on the PK at the third-highest rate in the NHL, the Sharks would be eighth-worst. They would have allowed about 3 fewer goals this season, roughly worth one point in the standings. Whoop de ****ing do.

Again, the Sharks have played 160 minutes on the penalty kill all season long. Judging a team on their goal-based results over that tiny a sample size is foolish. The thing to be concerned about is the rate at which the Sharks are allowing shots against (and, by proxy, scoring chances against) on the penalty kill, second-worst in the NHL. The SV% will inevitably wax and wane as it always does.
I gotta ask - have you ever played a minute of hockey in your life? Do you watch real hockey? Or do you just pore over stats pages all day?

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12-28-2011, 05:32 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
I gotta ask - have you ever played a minute of hockey in your life? Do you watch real hockey? Or do you just pore over stats pages all day?
There's no point playing or watching -- that just leads to narrative BS. An ideal world would have all games simulated on computers.

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12-28-2011, 05:52 PM
  #521
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Greiss doesn't have enough games to get PK SV% as significant, but what about Niemi's career #'s vs. league? Also, I have noted that Niemi's rebound control is subpar. One of the stats sites had a SV% on second chance shots. It would be interesting to compare Niemi's #'s vs the league on that issue. Subpar rebound control will also result in more shots against on PK as the puck is not going to an empty corner or directly to a teammate's stick or being frozen for a faceoff. The second shot SV% also had raw numbers where a comparison could be made between Niemi and other goalies on total number of second chances.
Niemi's career PK SV% is 0.878, so a shade below what league average has been in the years he's played. We're still only dealing with 508 shots against but I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of Niemi's shorthanded ability. His mechanics make him less than ideal for the role. Rebound control and lateral mobility are both very important shorthanded and he doesn't excel in either category. I think a lot of the motivation behind the 1-1-2 PK setup last season was to cover Niemi's weakness by suppressing cross-ice passes but that obviously didn't yield the intended result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
I gotta ask - have you ever played a minute of hockey in your life? Do you watch real hockey? Or do you just pore over stats pages all day?
I actually figured out a way to intravenously inject Excel spreadsheets so I really don't do all that much poring to be honest.

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