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Hockey's Future Fall 2004 Org Rankings 1-10

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Old
09-30-2004, 10:58 AM
  #26
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The Rangers are fine where they are.No complaints

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09-30-2004, 10:59 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balddog66
Am I the only person who thinks the Rangers are way too high?
I mean prospect for prospect I didn't think they were that much better off than the leafs...at least the leafs a little depth...both have the same potential for impact players...?
You must be joking because you can not be serious

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09-30-2004, 11:04 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
agreed. i'd take nashville's prospects over either of those teams, personally..but on the whole...the list looks good. i also thought the Rangers have really built up their prospect pool through wise trades over the past year, and deserve to be where they are.

Really? I like Nashville's prospects but I do prefer Edmonton's. And I don't think I am just being a homer. Nashville has top end talent on the D that edmonton doesn't have, but Edmonton has top end talent on offense that Nashville doesn't. Also Edmonton's list is a bit deeper with a lot of players in their top 20 (and out of it too) having a legit shot at the NHL. They won't all make it, but some will and those guys are looking good. And frankly a D of Woywitka, Lynch, and Greene looks fine by me. and that isn't including Tesliuk who we just drafting and is still getting used to the NA game.

Nashville is good though, I quite like that organization in general. And man are their fans classy!!! During the Oilers playoff push, there was healthy competition between the 2 boards, but all Nashville fans that I saw were always polite and respectful. Hopefully you guys can start dragging everyone you know out to games and get the community excited about hockey in TN. Go to it guys!!!

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09-30-2004, 11:09 AM
  #29
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Meh, no big surprise. Nashville fans prefer their prospects, and Oiler fans like their own. But when they're that close, what's to choose between them?

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09-30-2004, 11:11 AM
  #30
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Woo! Go Oilers!

Thanks for your hard work, too, guys!

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:15 AM
  #31
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great job on the rankings

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:20 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Nashville at no. 6 is definitely not too high. We have one of the best prospect cores bar none. In fact, I think a case could be made for flip flopping us with either Montreal or Edmonton depending on your perspective.
No offense but I simply can't see you being able to give an objective analysis of Preds prospects vs. prospects of other teams. Too much homerism involved, strictly IMHO of course.

Goaltending quality pretty low, depth average. Lassila looks ok but he will never be a true no.1 goalie in the NHL. Finley most likely won't reach his potential.

Defense is very solid, no question but after Suter there's no 1st/2nd pairing d-men on the horizon, Weber isn't worth 7B IMHO, 6C would be closer. The fact that you have Niskala 4th tells a lot, Niskala has career euroleaguer (albeit a good one) written all over him. Oh and there's no way he's a 6.5B, even 6C is probably too much.

Center has no quality and no depth, Setzinger will never make it to NHL either (lack of size & skills) and if he's your no.1 center prospect, you're in trouble. Seriously.

Of wingers only Radulov and Shishkanov have top6 potential and the former is unlikely at best to reach that potential (just look at his brother). Upshall has career 3rd liner (good one though) written all over him, 15g 20a potential. The rest are, well, nothing to write home about. I'd suprised to see more than 2 of those ever make it to NHL.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:22 AM
  #33
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The top 50 list is easy.


Put Ovechkin up there and fill in the rest.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:24 AM
  #34
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Nice work guys!

It must have been close between Wash and Pitts for the top spot. IMHO I think the Pens have the best group of prospects. In my mind Oullette-Ovechkin and Fleury-Malkin practically cancel each other out...so then I go mostly by depth and Pitts has more (IMO of course).

Thanks again, writers!

Appreciated.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:26 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
The top 50 list is easy.


Put Ovechkin up there and fill in the rest.
Exactly, except just switch that with Lehtonen.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:30 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
No offense but I simply can't see you being able to give an objective analysis of Preds prospects vs. prospects of other teams. Too much homerism involved, strictly IMHO of course.

Goaltending quality pretty low, depth average. Lassila looks ok but he will never be a true no.1 goalie in the NHL. Finley most likely won't reach his potential.

Defense is very solid, no question but after Suter there's no 1st/2nd pairing d-men on the horizon, Weber isn't worth 7B IMHO, 6C would be closer. The fact that you have Niskala 4th tells a lot, Niskala has career euroleaguer (albeit a good one) written all over him. Oh and there's no way he's a 6.5B, even 6C is probably too much.

Center has no quality and no depth, Setzinger will never make it to NHL either (lack of size & skills) and if he's your no.1 center prospect, you're in trouble. Seriously.

Of wingers only Radulov and Shishkanov have top6 potential and the former is unlikely at best to reach that potential (just look at his brother). Upshall has career 3rd liner (good one though) written all over him, 15g 20a potential. The rest are, well, nothing to write home about. I'd suprised to see more than 2 of those ever make it to NHL.

I pride myself on looking at things objectively..but I happen to disagree with much of what you're saying. For example...you're basing Radulov's chances of success on his brother...when it was specifically stated that Alexander is a MUCH better prospect that Igor ever was? And stating that Niskala will never come to North America..when Poile specifically said that he would have had a good chance at making the team THIS YEAR, if not for the lockout? Or that Weber, someone that a lot of people(along with Klein) would have gone in the first round in most other years, and will be on the Canadian WJC team next year, after being named to the all-memorial cup team? It just seems like you're doing a lot of guessing. Finley won't reach his potential? Why not? Last year was the first time he was given a real chance at starting, and he was rock-solid...and he's still only 23, very young in goaltender terms. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, though I feel more comfortable in my assessments, being more familiar with a lot of these guys than you are, most likely.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:34 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
The top 50 list is easy.


Put Ovechkin up there and fill in the rest.
If only it were that easy.....

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:35 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DoobieDoobieDo
Also my only big chief complaint again lies with Atlanta...

Their negatives is that they have a lot of safe bet forwards, but doesn't everyone?
Yes, which is why that would be considered a negative - they're not much better than most teams in that regard.

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Old
09-30-2004, 11:43 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Exactly, except just switch that with Lehtonen.
Ha Ha! Let the debates begin?

I think the top 10 will contain (in no definite order)...

Ovechkin - Lehtonen - Phaneuf - Fleury - Zherdev - Horton - Malkin - Miller - Suter - Vanek ...

A very arguable list for sure... try fitting in the next 40? I'm happy with my day job...

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Old
09-30-2004, 12:43 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
I pride myself on looking at things objectively..but I happen to disagree with much of what you're saying. For example...you're basing Radulov's chances of success on his brother...
That's not the basis of my evaluation, just a fact that supports it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
And stating that Niskala will never come to North America..when Poile specifically said that he would have had a good chance at making the team THIS YEAR, if not for the lockout?
I just don't think Niskala's game is well-suited to NHL, maybe couple of years in NHL/AHL before returning to Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
Or that Weber, someone that a lot of people(along with Klein) would have gone in the first round in most other years, and will be on the Canadian WJC team next year, after being named to the all-memorial cup team? It just seems like you're doing a lot of guessing.
At this point everybody is guessing, some have more educated guesses than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
Finley won't reach his potential? Why not? Last year was the first time he was given a real chance at starting, and he was rock-solid...and he's still only 23, very young in goaltender terms. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, though I feel more comfortable in my assessments, being more familiar with a lot of these guys than you are, most likely.
Finley should have progressed faster by now, he hasn't really done anything to impress me so far. Granted, I don't get to see him play that much but he's not making too many waves which one could expect from highly-drafted goalie prospect. He's not in my top10 goalie prospect list, and a 7C rating is nothing special.

Yes, we agree to disagree. I have noticed that Nashville has couple of, ahem, over-zealous fans here who seem to overrate their players while underrating others. Just a general observation really, based on several Hartnell/Hamhuis/Erat debates over the last year or two.

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Old
09-30-2004, 01:19 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiped Krusader
Yes, which is why that would be considered a negative - they're not much better than most teams in that regard.
But their positives isn't that great...

I could make a strong case to push Anaheim and even Minnesota over them. Outside of Coburn and maybe Valabik what do they have on defense that isn't a big question mark? Ustmal? Lewis? Teams have those guys.

Basically it is Lehtonen and Coburn that pushes Atlanta up that high and I really question that.

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Old
09-30-2004, 01:33 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
No offense but I simply can't see you being able to give an objective analysis of Preds prospects vs. prospects of other teams. Too much homerism involved, strictly IMHO of course.

Goaltending quality pretty low, depth average. Lassila looks ok but he will never be a true no.1 goalie in the NHL. Finley most likely won't reach his potential.

Defense is very solid, no question but after Suter there's no 1st/2nd pairing d-men on the horizon, Weber isn't worth 7B IMHO, 6C would be closer. The fact that you have Niskala 4th tells a lot, Niskala has career euroleaguer (albeit a good one) written all over him. Oh and there's no way he's a 6.5B, even 6C is probably too much.

Center has no quality and no depth, Setzinger will never make it to NHL either (lack of size & skills) and if he's your no.1 center prospect, you're in trouble. Seriously.

Of wingers only Radulov and Shishkanov have top6 potential and the former is unlikely at best to reach that potential (just look at his brother). Upshall has career 3rd liner (good one though) written all over him, 15g 20a potential. The rest are, well, nothing to write home about. I'd suprised to see more than 2 of those ever make it to NHL.
One thing our writer has done when rating our guys, moreso than almost any other writer here, is to take into account a players flaws and play it against his potential. Our prospects are underrated, even by our writer, who has said he would rather be closer to the line/below it then overrating our players gigantically. Your analysis offers no insight on our players, just your personal opinion...with nothing to back it up. If you want to debate why our high end prospects are going to fail, you need to come up with a bit more than "well his brother isn't currently succeeding...and...oh I haven't heard him making waves so he must be bad". Give me a break. Just because YOU haven't heard about them does not mean they are not good prospects, especially when people who actually FOLLOW the prospects have a much different take on the situation.

So you like Edmonton's prospects more, good for you. I don't, but as I did say in my original post...its a matter of perspective. At least I realize that others see things differently, rather than tear apart a very well thought out/respected prospect ranking because of my unfamiliarity with them, just so I can make my own teams prospect pool look better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
but Edmonton has top end talent on offense that Nashville doesn't
OTOH, Nashville actually does have quite a bit of top-end offensive talent. Radulov, Glazachev, Shishkanov, along with Upshall are all very impressive offensive prospects. Throw that in with Suter, Klein, Stehlik, and Weber on defense, with a few overagers in Kulyash (tearing his league up right now...) and Niskala. Along with a goaltending duo of Finley and Lassila....And a case could be made for us leapfrogging Montreal and Edmonton. I'm not saying they should be, as each of those teams have extremely impressive prospect pools. However, it isn't a stretch, and depending on a person's perspective....its a very reasonable claim.

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Old
09-30-2004, 01:53 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
OTOH, Nashville actually does have quite a bit of top-end offensive talent. Radulov, Glazachev, Shishkanov, along with Upshall are all very impressive offensive prospects. Throw that in with Suter, Klein, Stehlik, and Weber on defense, with a few overagers in Kulyash (tearing his league up right now...) and Niskala. Along with a goaltending duo of Finley and Lassila....And a case could be made for us leapfrogging Montreal and Edmonton. I'm not saying they should be, as each of those teams have extremely impressive prospect pools. However, it isn't a stretch, and depending on a person's perspective....its a very reasonable claim.
Its pretty obvious that this list is based heavily on depth...and the Oilers have great depth in every position. Nashville wins hands down in terms of defensive depth although the Oilers ain't too shabby either. In terms of forwards, this is where Edmonton really comes out ahead...

Shishkanov, Radulov, Upshall, and perhaps Glazachev

vs.

Schremp, Pouliot, Niinimaki, Rita, Mikhnov, Salmelainen...and that's not including wildcards like Reddox, St. Pierre, Brodziak, Stortini, etc.

As for goaltending, I think the Oilers have better quality depth with two pretty good goalies in JDD and DD. Finley is the only quality goalie in Nashville's system and the other one sounds solid but his ceiling is limited. I think I sound a bit too much like a homer here and I don't claim to know a lot about Nashville's prospects, but if you actually go to the Oiler's page, you'll see a lot of 7's and 7.5's in our prospect list so somebody agrees with me.


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09-30-2004, 02:03 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
Its pretty obvious that this list is based heavily on depth...and the Oilers have great depth in every position. Nashville wins hands down in terms of defensive depth although the Oilers ain't too shabby either. In terms of forwards, this is where Edmonton really comes out ahead...

Shishkanov, Radulov, Upshall, and perhaps Glazachev

vs.

Schremp, Pouliot, Niinimaki, Rita, Mikhnov, Salmelainen...and that's not including wildcards like Reddox, St. Pierre, Brodziak, Stortini, etc.

As for goaltending, I think the Oilers have better quality depth with two pretty good goalies in JDD and DD. Finley is the only quality goalie in Nashville's system. I think I sound a bit too much like a homer here, but if you actually go to the Oiler's page, you'll see a lot of 7's and 7.5's in our prospect list.
I actually read that Schremp (yes he of the 25th draft position) received a 9C on his rating. That boggles my mind purely based upon the fact that I don't think he will be a bonafide #1 center in the league because he isn't a good enough player. I see Marc Savard as his upside and I would not rate a player a 9 potential if the best he was going to be was Marc Savard. People if his game was that incredible a lot of teams would have been happy to overlook his attitude and defensive problems to draft him....Kovalchuk had similar complaints when he was drafted and he went #1. He just doesn't have the package to be rated a 9 as far as potential. His top-end potential is as a #2 center who works well on the powerplay. He doesn't have the package like a guy like Malkin or Ovechkin, but he got the same 9 rating....could someone please explain

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09-30-2004, 02:10 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamin C Arena
I actually read that Schremp (yes he of the 25th draft position) received a 9C on his rating. That boggles my mind purely based upon the fact that I don't think he will be a bonafide #1 center in the league because he isn't a good enough player. I see Marc Savard as his upside and I would not rate a player a 9 potential if the best he was going to be was Marc Savard. People if his game was that incredible a lot of teams would have been happy to overlook his attitude and defensive problems to draft him....Kovalchuk had similar complaints when he was drafted and he went #1. He just doesn't have the package to be rated a 9 as far as potential. His top-end potential is as a #2 center who works well on the powerplay. He doesn't have the package like a guy like Malkin or Ovechkin, but he got the same 9 rating....could someone please explain
Notice the C after the 9. This is the new rating system. He has skills and the potential to be a superstar in the league but the chances of that are small and could be bumped down a couple of notches. Basically the rating says that Schremp at best will be a great #1 center and at worst a 2nd line forward.

Oh yeah, and I'd be pretty happy if he turned out to be a Marc Savard type player.

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09-30-2004, 02:27 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
Notice the C after the 9. This is the new rating system. He has skills and the potential to be a superstar in the league but the chances of that are small and could be bumped down a couple of notches. Basically the rating says that Schremp at best will be a great #1 center and at worst a 2nd line forward.

Oh yeah, and I'd be pretty happy if he turned out to be a Marc Savard type player.
But that is my whole point. He doesn't have superstar potential. At best he is going to be a Marc Savard at the NHL level. That's his potential. He doesn't have the tools to be an elite player in the NHL. If this guy really had superstar potential, a lot of teams would have happily taken him even if he did have attitude problems. I think what happened was that he was a hyped junior and got scouted a lot coming up to the draft. Scouts realized he just wasn't that good (similar to Dan Cleary) and his game doesn't translate very well to the NHL game. Sure he can dangle with the puck, but there are a lot more areas of the game that are more important especially the way the game is played now a days.

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09-30-2004, 02:37 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamin C Arena
But At best he is going to be a Marc Savard at the NHL level. That's his potential.
But his potential's higher than that, and even if he doesn't hit it, Marc Savard wouldn't be too bad (the Atlanta version, not the Calgary one.)


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09-30-2004, 02:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
Notice the C after the 9. This is the new rating system. He has skills and the potential to be a superstar in the league but the chances of that are small and could be bumped down a couple of notches. Basically the rating says that Schremp at best will be a great #1 center and at worst a 2nd line forward.

Oh yeah, and I'd be pretty happy if he turned out to be a Marc Savard type player.
At worst, wouldn't he be out of the league? If he was at best a great number 1 and at worst a second liner, I think he would have been taken a lot higher. He's probably a 9D. He could be a great center, but he's just as likely to be out of the league.

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09-30-2004, 02:50 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
At worst, wouldn't he be out of the league? If he was at best a great number 1 and at worst a second liner, I think he would have been taken a lot higher. He's probably a 9D. He could be a great center, but he's just as likely to be out of the league.
But why do you think he's just as likely to not make the league as to make it?

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09-30-2004, 02:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
But why do you think he's just as likely to not make the league as to make it?
I never said that he was just as likely not to make it as to make it. I think he's just as likely to reach his true potential (all-star center) as he is to be out of the league. I don't think either will happen as I think he'll fall somewhere in between. But I think he's more likely to make the league (in any role) than not to.

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