Who has had the better career? Patrick Marleau. And I'm more a fan of Doan then Marleau.
Marleau:
792 points in 1068 regular season games (.74ppg)
370 goals (.35gpg)
88 points in 124 playoff games (.71ppg)
52 playoff goals (.42gpg)
3 conference finals
Olympic gold
Doan:
760 points in 1155 regular season points (.66ppg)
305 goals (.26gpg)
19 points in 39 playoff games (.49ppg)
10 playoff goals (.26gpg)
Never made it past 1 round
Now, obviously the Sharks have been a better team as a whole then the coyotes. If you switch the two players, it would be Doan with all those playoff games and Marleau likely not making it past the first round. But the question is who has had the better career, not who would have the better career if...
You forgot Doan played on the 2004 World Cup team (Gold) and played in the 2006 Winter Olympics and played in every World Championships from 2007-09 (2007 World Champions - Gold)
Put Marleau on the Yotes instead of playing on a line with Joe Thornton these past few years and he probably has worse career numbers than Doan. The only reason Doan doesn't have better numbers than Marleau is because of where he plays. And he is a much more physical player, has always played both ways (not just recently like in Marleau's case) and he is a leader. I love Patty, but he is none of those. He has been a one dimensional player his entire career and only recently committed to some semblance of two way play.
And you can't compare playoff statistics when a) Doan has played far fewer playoff games and b) as a low seed, those games have typicallly come against a high seed. Even when they were the higher seed, they still wound up playing the likes of Detroit. And he was a PPG player in both of those last two series. Marleau hasn't been a PPG playoff performer for over 5 years, and hasn't had a postive playoff +/- since the 2005/6 season.
The fact is these guys are probably so close it's a wash.
If you look at the Sharks prior to the Thornton trade, Marleau had just as bad teammates. In 03/04 the second leading scorer behind Marleau was Nils Ekman. A year before that in 02/03 Marleau was beaten by Selanne and Damphousse (by less than 7 pts). Sure, Thornton joined the team and his numbers went up, but that was right around the time of a players typical peak seasons as well.
It's not like he was playing with Thornton all the time either. He was the Sharks' second line center for a lot of the time Thornton has played in San Jose.
Either way, both players are really special and would be welcomed on any team. I was happy the Sharks drafted Marleau at the time and have no problem with it to this day. I'm sure fans of Phoenix can say the same about Doan.
Marleau was a great forward before Thornton Came to the sharks, and had two PPG seasons playing as a second line center before changing to Wing. Marleau has speed, Defense, goal scoring, and is a great set up guy. He is solid on the Face off, PK, and yes, he is clutch, regular season and playoffs.
Marleau has everything on Doan but physical play. Marleau is by far the better player and has had the better Career.
They are pretty close when you weight it all out, thus you have people going either way on this thread.
I will tell you why I think I would choose, Doan, though.
In Canada, the impression is given (rightly or wrongly) that Marleau is a bit of an underachiever, and Doan is a leader. I think Marleau is the more talented player, but the general feeling is that the guy is not a winner. Why? I don't really even know, that's just how he is viewed. I hate to say it, but Joe Thornton is viewed that way, too. I think it because year after year the Sharks have been contenders and have nothing to show for it, whereas no one here has ever picked the Coyotes for anything.
Look, Marleau is from my area, so if there was ever going to be a homer pick somewhere other than in San Jose, I'd be it.
What on EARTH makes people think this? Jesus H, people are just dumb sometimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekernel
a lot of marleau homers in this thread are conveniently forgetting the presence of bona-fide superstar linemates, the luxury of which doan has rarely had since the departure of tkachuk and roenick. it's not taking anything away from marleau or what he brings, but you would probably be whistling a different tune if their places were switched.
consider the impact of joe thornton on marleau's career. marleau had always been middling below 60 points in the regular season. enter jumbo joe, and suddenly marleau is point-per-game.
marleau's playoff inconsistencies also tilt the scales to doan for me. he has the potential to go point-per-game with linemates like thornton, yet he normally manages to come in around 5th on his own team. he's either ppg and a great performer or he's not that close and he's an underachiever.
shane doan, while not having quite the same playoff sample size, has always been the best player on his team and has always (since the turn of the century) been close to point per game in the postseason.
those signs, to me, point to doan. i don't get to watch every pacific division match-up like sharks or yotes fans do, but i think i've seen enough marleau and doan to make up my own mind about who i'd rather have.
Patrick Marleau has had his highest point total (86) playing with rookie Milan Michalek and Steven Bernier. Not with Thornton. It'd do well to remember that.
Marleau consistently leads his team's forwards in ES time and SH time. He plays in every game situation. Selective memory much?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata
Put Marleau on the Yotes instead of playing on a line with Joe Thornton these past few years and he probably has worse career numbers than Doan. The only reason Doan doesn't have better numbers than Marleau is because of where he plays. And he is a much more physical player, has always played both ways (not just recently like in Marleau's case) and he is a leader. I love Patty, but he is none of those. He has been a one dimensional player his entire career and only recently committed to some semblance of two way play.
And you can't compare playoff statistics when a) Doan has played far fewer playoff games and b) as a low seed, those games have typicallly come against a high seed. Even when they were the higher seed, they still wound up playing the likes of Detroit. And he was a PPG player in both of those last two series. Marleau hasn't been a PPG playoff performer for over 5 years, and hasn't had a postive playoff +/- since the 2005/6 season.
The fact is these guys are probably so close it's a wash.
And he has ALWAYS been an excellent two-way player. You are thinking of Thornton, who only developed a two-way game last year. Marleau was I think 10th in Selke voting 6ish years ago. Marleau is a hot and cold player, everybody know that, but he TAKES OVER series like no one save the elites (Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, and Giroux) can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovepizzaandhockey
You forgot Doan played on the 2004 World Cup team (Gold) and played in the 2006 Winter Olympics and played in every World Championships from 2007-09 (2007 World Champions - Gold)
That's because Doan is a) older and b) available when WC are played, as opposed to in playoff series. Marleau was on that same 2004 Gold medal WC team, and should have been on the 2006 team (he had 86 points that year playing with rookies), and was in the playoffs in each of 2007-2009 except 2009 when he was playing through the playoffs with a torn MCL.
All the Doan supporters need to get off their "leadership" high-horse.
What on EARTH makes people think this? Jesus H, people are just dumb sometimes.
Patrick Marleau has had his highest point total (86) playing with rookie Milan Michalek and Steven Bernier. Not with Thornton. It'd do well to remember that.
Marleau consistently leads his team's forwards in ES time and SH time. He plays in every game situation. Selective memory much?
And he has ALWAYS been an excellent two-way player. You are thinking of Thornton, who only developed a two-way game last year. Marleau was I think 10th in Selke voting 6ish years ago. Marleau is a hot and cold player, everybody know that, but he TAKES OVER series like no one save the elites (Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, and Giroux) can.
That's because Doan is a) older and b) available when WC are played, as opposed to in playoff series. Marleau was on that same 2004 Gold medal WC team, and should have been on the 2006 team (he had 86 points that year playing with rookies), and was in the playoffs in each of 2007-2009 except 2009 when he was playing through the playoffs with a torn MCL.
All the Doan supporters need to get off their "leadership" high-horse.
He actually finished 9th in 2009, and 8th in 2010 for Selke voting. But he didn't start getting notice until Ricci left.
Its funny though how Thornton has had some notice to his defensive game.
2006: 19th(1-1-0-3-1)
2007: 21st(1-1-0-3-1)-He actually finished ahead of Marleau(22nd)
It wasn't until 2008 where he finished outside of the top 30 and ever since he hasn't cracked the top 20. Even in 2010 where he was better defensively than he has ever been, he was like 37th in voting.
a lot of marleau homers in this thread are conveniently forgetting the presence of bona-fide superstar linemates, the luxury of which doan has rarely had since the departure of tkachuk and roenick. it's not taking anything away from marleau or what he brings, but you would probably be whistling a different tune if their places were switched.
consider the impact of joe thornton on marleau's career. marleau had always been middling below 60 points in the regular season. enter jumbo joe, and suddenly marleau is point-per-game.
marleau's playoff inconsistencies also tilt the scales to doan for me. he has the potential to go point-per-game with linemates like thornton, yet he normally manages to come in around 5th on his own team. he's either ppg and a great performer or he's not that close and he's an underachiever.
shane doan, while not having quite the same playoff sample size, has always been the best player on his team and has always (since the turn of the century) been close to point per game in the postseason.
those signs, to me, point to doan. i don't get to watch every pacific division match-up like sharks or yotes fans do, but i think i've seen enough marleau and doan to make up my own mind about who i'd rather have.
When you attribute Marleau's rise in production, you conveniently ignore that he didn't play with Jumbo the first three years after the lockout and that the lockout changes themselves opened the game up which benefits a player of Marleau's skills.
As for his playoff inconsistencies, he is always one of the top two goal scorers on his team in the playoffs. Doan has 19 points in 39 games compared to Marleau's 88 in 124. Doan's ppg in the playoffs is dwarfed by Marleau's. You can keep basing your post on media reputation all you want but facts are that Marleau is the better player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmata
Put Marleau on the Yotes instead of playing on a line with Joe Thornton these past few years and he probably has worse career numbers than Doan. The only reason Doan doesn't have better numbers than Marleau is because of where he plays. And he is a much more physical player, has always played both ways (not just recently like in Marleau's case) and he is a leader. I love Patty, but he is none of those. He has been a one dimensional player his entire career and only recently committed to some semblance of two way play.
And you can't compare playoff statistics when a) Doan has played far fewer playoff games and b) as a low seed, those games have typicallly come against a high seed. Even when they were the higher seed, they still wound up playing the likes of Detroit. And he was a PPG player in both of those last two series. Marleau hasn't been a PPG playoff performer for over 5 years, and hasn't had a postive playoff +/- since the 2005/6 season.
The fact is these guys are probably so close it's a wash.
This comment is nothing more than you buying the hype of a player based on absolutely nothing plus buying into the stigma of Patty the playoff underachiever. If you call what Shane Doan has done in his career playing both ways, it isn't saying much. He didn't kill penalties that much. He doesn't create turnovers and certainly not more than Marleau has. He hasn't led his team anywhere but because of the team around him, you get away with a comment like that even though Marleau has led his team further as a leader. And to come off and say Marleau isn't a leader is complete crap. Just because the man doesn't have the outward emotions people like having in a captain doesn't mean he's not a leader. The man took the hit for his team and stuck it out with them when he could've bolted and been right to do so.
And you can't compare playoff statistics because that would favor Marleau thus you have to discount it in a way to make Doan look good. The ppg argument is weak at best. Doan played four games last year and three the year before that in the playoffs. Getting that number is not impressive at all, I don't care what the matchup is. You're also quibbling over 1 point in 1 game when he was 13 in 14 in 2009-10. To go along with that, the more you progress, the more difficult it gets especially when most defenses focus on you. Playoff +/- is completely pointless to even bring up.
It's such a difficult comparison to imagine because Doan's best attributes are Patty's weakest, yet Patty has the far and away better resume and all the statistical proof on his side.
Fact is, Patty went deeper into his playoffs with the Sharks before all the superstars came to down, the deepest SJ has ever been. He was a solid playoff performer before Thornton came to town.
All the numbers from salary to career point to Patty for a reason. I know there is a tendency to hold sacrosanct "intangibles" that people believe to be valuable in the playoffs, but Patty is pretty much a sure thing and you take that.
GMs would not be looking to add Patty as a final piece for a cup run because he is too valuable, in terms of money, and in terms of team structure. You couldn't just add him to a team without risking a big shakeup.
"Well factual, statistical evidence says Marleau is the more accomplished player, but I just think Doan is like totally a super hero or whatever, ya know???"
What on EARTH makes people think this? Jesus H, people are just dumb sometimes.
I think it is possible to argue this without calling anyone names.
I am just stating what I have heard and watched as someone who religiously follows all Canadian hockey players internationally, and how and why they are ranked the way they are.
Marleau will always be taken if you have a good leadership core that needs a skilled guy who could take that role, whereas Doan would be desired by a team needing leadership.
It isn't just about who has won what. I imagine people in hockey circles know a little more than you or I in terms of who says the right thing in the dressing room, who is the guy others will follow or listen to, etc.
I have played with some pretty skilled players in my day who I think are jackwagons, but I have also played with not-so-skilled guys that made me want to go through a wall for them. That is something you can't quantify with stats or an opinion of an outsider. Thus, I take the word of the guys who really know these men for who they are, and that's what those guys would tell you.
I think it is possible to argue this without calling anyone names.
I am just stating what I have heard and watched as someone who religiously follows all Canadian hockey players internationally, and how and why they are ranked the way they are.
Marleau will always be taken if you have a good leadership core that needs a skilled guy who could take that role, whereas Doan would be desired by a team needing leadership.
It isn't just about who has won what. I imagine people in hockey circles know a little more than you or I in terms of who says the right thing in the dressing room, who is the guy others will follow or listen to, etc.
I have played with some pretty skilled players in my day who I think are jackwagons, but I have also played with not-so-skilled guys that made me want to go through a wall for them. That is something you can't quantify with stats or an opinion of an outsider. Thus, I take the word of the guys who really know these men for who they are, and that's what those guys would tell you.
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that people on here assuming that Marleau is a poor leader and Doan is a great one without ever being in a lockerroom with either of them is just dumb. Maybe it's true, but I'm just sick of people assuming things based on media-created reputations.
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that people on here assuming that Marleau is a poor leader and Doan is a great one without ever being in a lockerroom with either of them is just dumb. Maybe it's true, but I'm just sick of people assuming things based on media-created reputations.
Except I don't think it is just media. I think there is something to it. I don't know the guy, obviously, but I think it might simply be a matter of him not being very vocal at all. I mean, how long has he been in the NHL? I am not sure I have ever heard him talk.
Marleau not as fast as he used to be but it's clear when you watch the two play that Marleau is still fairly good and so is Doan but Doan isn't even the best forward on his team on some nights (yes I know Marleau isn't the best either but he has more competition). I dunno about history but I'd take Marleau now.
Except I don't think it is just media. I think there is something to it. I don't know the guy, obviously, but I think it might simply be a matter of him not being very vocal at all. I mean, how long has he been in the NHL? I am not sure I have ever heard him talk.
He's quiet; that doesn't make him a bad leader. I agree that that's why he is perceived as such though. He's just an awkward, quiet, shy guy. He's not a vocal leader, he leads by example.
No one knows what the locker room is like and the common misconception seems to be that the louder more fiery players are the best leaders. You can't get anywhere if you don't have a calming influence, though. All fire and no water will burn a team apart.
Last edited by KpopandHockey: 12-29-2011 at 01:07 AM.
