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The official Brule/Crosby debate

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Old
10-01-2004, 02:18 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt MacInnis
First of all, both are great players.

However, there is no comparison. Brule has the unfortunate distinction of being a first overall calibre player in a draft that has a "player for the ages."

Brule certainly has the talent to be a superstar, but at this point in their development he can't compare to Crosby who has the talent to be a player who changes the game.
Well said Mountie! Crosby is that rare, once maybe twice, a generation type player who just makes greatness look effortless. We saw it with Gretzky and Lemieux, and now its his turn to shine.

I don't like the Gretzky comparisons because the game is so different now. I just don't feel Crosby will be able to truly showcase his talent in the suffocating state of the NHL today. Should they implement some rule changes (which I'm against) or simply fold some teams who have proven can't make a serious go of it and that way you rid the game of the talent leaches. Those players who really are not skilled enough to make a contribution to the team, but rather they take up space, they hook and interfere with the real skill guys and frankly they water down the game. If that happened (I'm not holding my breath) then I think the on ice product would be much more enjoyable and the players would get back to those high scoring days of what seems like an eternity ago. In that situation, Crosby and many other young guns aswell as some vets, would be able to show their stuff.

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Old
10-01-2004, 02:33 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtra
I will put it in blood that if Crosby goes to one of the Canadian that he will bust. Why do i say that? because if any of those teams are in the position to draft him he will be looked at as a savior to that team and the Pressure will be too intense for him(NHL PRESSURE>>>>>>>>>>>CHL Pressure). Bust might be a strong word to say but with the way he is being pimped as a guaranteed superstar anything less than that will be a bust the way i see it.
This kid has been compared to Gretzky and Lemieux, since he was 14, arguably the two best players ever to have played the game. Do you really think the pressure would be any different for him in Carolina as opposed to Calgary? He will feel pressure regardless of where he plays, because his pressure is coming straight from the NHL itself. Gretzky has said that he believes Crosby will break his records. Personally I think there is little to no chance of that happening but hey I could be wrong. I just think that mentally he is so ready and so strong that whether he is drafted by a Canadian team or not he will do extremely well.

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Old
10-01-2004, 02:42 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead
Well said Mountie! Crosby is that rare, once maybe twice, a generation type player who just makes greatness look effortless. We saw it with Gretzky and Lemieux, and now its his turn to shine.

I don't like the Gretzky comparisons because the game is so different now. I just don't feel Crosby will be able to truly showcase his talent in the suffocating state of the NHL today. Should they implement some rule changes (which I'm against) or simply fold some teams who have proven can't make a serious go of it and that way you rid the game of the talent leaches. Those players who really are not skilled enough to make a contribution to the team, but rather they take up space, they hook and interfere with the real skill guys and frankly they water down the game. If that happened (I'm not holding my breath) then I think the on ice product would be much more enjoyable and the players would get back to those high scoring days of what seems like an eternity ago. In that situation, Crosby and many other young guns aswell as some vets, would be able to show their stuff.
if crosby really is a gretzky/lemieux type player, we'll all be able to tell, clutch and grab nhl or not. a 24 year old gretz or mario would put up 150 pts even in today's nhl. hopefully people don't expect that from crosby right away, but still we'd be able to tell if that potential is there.

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Old
10-01-2004, 03:18 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
if crosby really is a gretzky/lemieux type player, we'll all be able to tell, clutch and grab nhl or not. a 24 year old gretz or mario would put up 150 pts even in today's nhl. hopefully people don't expect that from crosby right away, but still we'd be able to tell if that potential is there.
There is little chance that Gretz or Mario would put up 150 in todays game. This debate is just like who was the best...Gretzky or Howe? You can't take both men in their prime and do a proper comparison. The game was very different when Howe played, as opposed to Gretzky's days. The same holds true for Crosby. The NHL has been killing off the skill part of the game for the better part of a decade now. You can't tell me that Crosby wouldn't put more points if he broke in 10 years ago, because you have nothing to support your argument. I agree the very special players always find a way, but when not one of the top players in the game can muster 100 points, and there was a three way tie for the top goal scorer at 41, I think you have to concede that the game is just not tailor made for the skilled guys anymore. And I think that is priority one, just as soon as they can get this CBA problem fixed.

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10-01-2004, 03:20 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEli
People will get angry over this. I can see one person in particular coming into this and actually suggesting that Brule will push Crosby for #1 this year.

Look. People shouldn't take this personally. At this point in their careers, it would be like comparing Jaromir Jagr to Mike Modano in the NHL. Both players are clearly head and shoulders above their competition. It's still painfully obvious that Jagr is better than Modano though.

Note: This is not me comparing Sidney Crosby to Jaromir Jagr. Or Gilbert Brule to Mike Modano. It's an analogy.

While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, Mike Modano is an overall better player than Jaromir Jagr. Jagr is more talented offensively, but that only takes you so far.

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Old
10-01-2004, 03:27 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead
There is little chance that Gretz or Mario would put up 150 in todays game. This debate is just like who was the best...Gretzky or Howe? You can't take both men in their prime and do a proper comparison. The game was very different when Howe played, as opposed to Gretzky's days. The same holds true for Crosby. The NHL has been killing off the skill part of the game for the better part of a decade now. You can't tell me that Crosby wouldn't put more points if he broke in 10 years ago, because you have nothing to support your argument. I agree the very special players always find a way, but when not one of the top players in the game can muster 100 points, and there was a three way tie for the top goal scorer at 41, I think you have to concede that the game is just not tailor made for the skilled guys anymore. And I think that is priority one, just as soon as they can get this CBA problem fixed.
i don't know if you're trying to make excuses for crosby already, but there is no doubt in my mind that gretzky or mario could score 150 pts in today's nhl. mario at 37 years old had 91 pts in 67 games in 2002-03, and at 35 years old had 76 pts in 43 games.

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Old
10-01-2004, 03:43 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
i don't know if you're trying to make excuses for crosby already, but there is no doubt in my mind that gretzky or mario could score 150 pts in today's nhl. mario at 37 years old had 91 pts in 67 games in 2002-03, and at 35 years old had 76 pts in 43 games.
True, the hockey has changed but 150 pts for Gretz or Mario is realistic. (212 well maybe not, those days are over... )

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Old
10-01-2004, 03:56 PM
  #33
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Guys, I love Brule (ok, so I picked him for my fantasy league team),
but I can't stand this debate, really. Crosby looks like an
unbelievable talent and I think it's a bit disgraceful to have a fight
over which of these two great prospects is better. Don't get me
wrong, I like hearing about the two players and their pros and cons,
but there's really no need for a fight. No matter in which league
he is playing, Crosby is clearly the best prospect. I would even
think that Gilbert would agree on this, since it's no shame at all
to be second behind such a special player. So, chill! ;-)

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Old
10-01-2004, 03:56 PM
  #34
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Brule vs Crosby

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyGod
Well here we go. This is where we can debate these two studs.
Heres my take:

Brule-His shot is the most inticing thing about this Vancouver Giant. Ive heard that he can absolutly snipe from everywhere. A gritty skilled guy who will take or make the hit to make the play. He isnt going to dangle end to end in the WHL. But has the skill to be an impact player every night.

Crosby-This kid is a world class talent. The skills that he has are absolutly breathtaking and is the best player on the ice almost every night. One can take into account that the QMJHL is not as competative as the the WHL and more of an offencive league. His stats might be a little bit inflated cause of the the league but I dont beleive it I think this kid will be amazing.

Overall-We will see all different Brule/Crosby comparasins all year long. They will no dougtly go 1/2 with Brule taking the backseat in this one. Crosby is an offensive genious with skills unmatched by anyone. Brule is more of a 2 way player but also has great offensive instincts and an unbeleivable shot. Should be interesting see these two "battle"for that #1 spot.
Your quote about Brule "He isn't going to dangle end to end in the WHL" is absolutely an indication that you have not seen him play in the WHL at all. There are about a half dozen goals of his from last year as a 16 yr old doing some spectacular end to end rushes resulting in fantastic goals. These rushes displayed unbelievable puckhandling and shooting skills for all to see. Brule is also a world class talent. He also posesses excellent playmaking skills.

Brule focuses on doing whatever it takes to lead his team to win a hockey game. Both are great at what they do. Crosby/Brule may be the best 1-2 NHL draft picks in a long time.

In actuality they are much closer in ability than many amateur scouts believe.

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Old
10-01-2004, 04:08 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger
While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, Mike Modano is an overall better player than Jaromir Jagr. Jagr is more talented offensively, but that only takes you so far.
This was not the point. Whether you like Modano more (where's he from again?) or not, it doesn't matter. Would it help if I put Paul Kariya or some other offensive player? No. It doesn't matter.


Last edited by PEli*: 10-01-2004 at 04:13 PM.
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10-01-2004, 04:16 PM
  #36
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Not to sit on the fence, but I think that the argument should be addressed in two ways...

First, there really is no meaningful debate right now. At 16 years of age last year, Crosby was the best player in the entire CHL, and that includes players four and five years older than him. Brule - who is eight months OLDER than Crosby - had a great rookie season for a 16/17 year old, but in the end, finished with less than a point per game and more than 20 points behind the leading scorer on his team. More recently, Brule was good at the U-18 tourney last month, but didn't seperate himself from the other elite players in the tourney. And this was against his age group, as opposed to Crosby's demonstration against players much older. The bottom line is that Brule has to show more progress versus last year just to be considered a consensus #2. Admittedly, his first game was a helluva start, but it was just one game.

HOWEVER, there does exist the potential for a debate, because the draft is a full season of hockey away, and players really do improve at this age. If Brule really has taken a major step forward and ends up scoring 120 points or so, while further showing he can physically dominate on his way to 150 PIM's, well, then you will have some scouts whispering 'forsberg', and we might just have a debate on our hands. Especially if Sid only progresses marginally (which wouldn't be a surpirse given his dominance last year) and ends up with 150 points or so in the Q.

But that is based on some big 'ifs'. It's now up to Brule to show he can dominate a league, rather than just be one of it's better players. Should be fun to watch.

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Old
10-01-2004, 04:16 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosefan
This kid has faced pressuer all his life and he was brought up learning how to deal with it. I don't think the presseur will bother him at all. He faced it in the Air Canada Cup and took his team to the finals as a double underager, he faced it in the Canada Winter Games with TSN following him around all day and him selling out the arenas up there and he took the tourny by storm and lead it in scoring at 15 years of age over guys like Wolski, McGrath, Chipchura, Brule, Bertram etc. He faced it in Shattuck and took the team on his back, and now he is doing it in Rimouski where people are waiting for him to show that he is human and now a bad game for him is 2 points in the game. This kid has always lived up to the hype where ever he goes.
I didn't say he hasn't faced Pressure all through out his Carrer what i said was that the pressure in Canada for a "talent" like this is unbelivable. If he doesn't produce right away there will be lots of people calling him a bust (most people here know it takes longer to develop and he may never reach his true potential.)

What ever people say i don't think many will dispute that there will be enormous pressure on him if he goes to a canadian City and i truly belive that it will be detremental for him.

It would be great for the league if he went to NYR or LA
It woudl be great for Canada if he went to a team on the good side of the 49
It woudl be great for Crosby if he went to a back water team like Carolina or Washington where there are not many expectations on him unlike Canada.



* By calling Carolina and Washington Backwater teams i mean that while there are Die Hard Fans there the teams(Caps Hurricanes) are not the main attraction and that the pressure would be no where close to what it woudl be in Calgary or Toronto or Vancouver. Personally I think with the Rabid die Hard Habs fans it would be the worst situation for him to go there if the team has been Gutted (by trade to get Crosby) or because the team just plain old sucked next season.

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Old
10-01-2004, 04:28 PM
  #38
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Crosby is a lock at #1, and a lock to be the best player drafted next season. Brule is not a lock for #2. Andrew Cogliano, who is 6 months younger and about the same size, outplayed Brule in the only two times they have appeared together. There are others who could challenge Brule for the second spot as well. Being one of the oldest of the top prospects, and a compact skill player, he is much closer to his optimum potential than some of the bigger, younger kids. That may be a factor at the draft table.

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Old
10-01-2004, 05:14 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Crosby is a lock at #1, and a lock to be the best player drafted next season. Brule is not a lock for #2. Andrew Cogliano, who is 6 months younger and about the same size, outplayed Brule in the only two times they have appeared together. There are others who could challenge Brule for the second spot as well. Being one of the oldest of the top prospects, and a compact skill player, he is much closer to his optimum potential than some of the bigger, younger kids. That may be a factor at the draft table.
Andrew Cogliano IMO will not knock Brule out of 2nd. 1st Cogliano is playing his draft year in Jr. A which is going to hurt his stock a bit, Cogliano is not a real fiesty player and he isn't the defensive player Brule is either, Brule. Brule is alot better overall than Cogliano.

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10-01-2004, 05:19 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiffler's Mom

In actuality they are much closer in ability than many amateur scouts believe.
not even close IMO. Brule and Crosby might both have elite skill but the thing that seperates them is how Crosby sees the ice and knows the game and though you can say Brule can do that...after seeing both play live you would really have to see Crosby play as you would see how he dominates off of smarts. So I am not saying Brule doesn't have elite skill or knowledge of the game as I think your skill set can only get so good and both players seem to possess awsome overall skill but Crosby sees the game alot better than any player I have ever seen. I watched players like Ovechkin, Zherdev, Nash, Staal, Paul Kariya, Lecavalier, Richards, Gagne, Tanguay, Iginla, etc come up as juniors and none of them come close to how Crosby sees the game none.

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Old
10-02-2004, 10:55 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
I won't call you a homer, I'll call you delusional.

Ever hear of guys named: Coffey, Messier, Andersen, Fuhr, Kurri, Lowe? How about some guys named Jagr, Francis, Barasso, Stevens, Samualsen?

Whereever Crosby ends up, he will be going to a really bad team. He will take his lumps initially, and he will have to hope that management is smart enough to get him the help he needs. He could end up on the Capitals, and all of their prospects develop, and they end up being a dynasty for 10 years. If that does happen, it won't just be based on Crosby though. It will be based on building a TEAM, because in hockey, TEAMS win championships, not individual players.
Yeah its true TEAMS win championships but what I'm saying is whichever team gets him will likely be bad and will build from the ground up. Gretzky wanted Sather to draft Coffey back in 1980 and they did. Why? It complemented Gretzky very well. Same with Anderson. It'll be the same with Crosby, you're gonna want to have players that can play off him well, and all I'm saying is that they likely will build the team around his talents.

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Old
10-02-2004, 11:18 AM
  #42
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Just how big are these two? I thought I saw last year that Crosby was only 5-10....a bit smallish, but I'm probably mistaken.

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10-02-2004, 12:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
i don't know if you're trying to make excuses for crosby already, but there is no doubt in my mind that gretzky or mario could score 150 pts in today's nhl. mario at 37 years old had 91 pts in 67 games in 2002-03, and at 35 years old had 76 pts in 43 games.
To be honest, it wouldn't bother me in the least if Crosby doesn't come in and dominate the NHL like some people hope he does. I am not making excuses for him, because like any up and coming phenom, he will have to back it up on the ice. As amazing as it was to see Mario put up those points in '02-'03 it still only equals 111 points if you pro rate it to 82 games. I am not going to get into a debate about if they could or couldn't hit 150, because it is pointless. You also have to factor in things like, injuries to him or his linemates. Point is, you can't say what these guys would have been able to do today, because there is no way of knowing. I am no more right or wrong than you. I am simply saying that the way the game has regressed offensively, every player in the league has put up fewer points than what they had put up when the game was more wide open. The bigger players, the two refs, the bigger and better goalies, and the interference, all lend credence to that point. The game is slower, and less exciting than it used to be...don't take my word for it, check the history books.

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Old
10-02-2004, 04:10 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-mad
Just how big are these two? I thought I saw last year that Crosby was only 5-10....a bit smallish, but I'm probably mistaken.
Brule 5'11''
Crosby 5'10''/half

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Old
10-02-2004, 07:03 PM
  #45
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If Brule was to be in last year's draft where would he go?

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Old
10-02-2004, 09:04 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Brule 5'11''
Crosby 5'10''/half

Crosby now 5'11 and 190

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Old
10-02-2004, 10:28 PM
  #47
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Crosby vs Brule or is there orhers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrosbyIsGod
Crosby now 5'11 and 190
I compiled a list of 10 guys I thought would be contenders for top picks. No goalies and almost always a goalie is picked in the Top 10. Behind Crosby and Brule what about:

Latendresse? I have heard some say he may replace Brule. Then there are guys like Anikeeno, Bertram, Laakso, Kindl, Jack Johnson, Mark Staal and Marek Zagrapov. This is the first I ever heard of Cogliano but he doesnt seem like a real contender.

I have heard some say Bertram is the most physically talented, Brule is the grittiest.

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Old
10-03-2004, 01:47 AM
  #48
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Brule' with a 1st period goal in an OT win.

5pts in 4 games.

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Old
10-03-2004, 02:09 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrosbyIsGod
Crosby now 5'11 and 190
Link?

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Old
10-03-2004, 10:42 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Link?
oh come on...

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