Sorry to pick up on only one small part of your post (which was a good overall post, btw), but I don't understand where the bolded comes from.
What makes people believe Nino would have stagnated or stalled in his development if he was sent back to junior for one more year? Is Bartschi stagnating this year? Is Ryan Strome's career derailed because he's back in junior after "dominating" last year? How is it that these guys (and a guy like Jonathan Hubedeau) go back and improve/dominate the junior game to the benefit of themselves and the team they were drafted by, but if Nino was sent back it would be catastrophic for his career?
Nino had a good year last year, but it wasn't dominating, it wasn't one of those "holy cow, this guy is just too good for this level!" type seasons. So I really don't understand this belief that Nino had nothing left for him at the junior level. The fact he's clearly in over his head at the NHL level should suggest that he does, in fact, have quite a bit to learn yet.
Only from the standpoint that I think Nino is physically developed better than Strome and that Nino has a better chance to devlop playing with better skilled players. Strome has great hockey sense but needs a year or two to develop physically. I feel the same way about Huberdeau (needs to develop muscle) as opposed to Landeskog.
Only from the standpoint that I think Nino is physically developed better than Strome and that Nino has a better chance to devlop playing with better skilled players. Strome has great hockey sense but needs a year or two to develop physically. I feel the same way about Huberdeau (needs to develop muscle) as opposed to Landeskog.
I think sometimes fans focus too much on whether or not a player is physically ready for the next level, without focusing on whether his skills are ready for the next level.
When you look at a guy like Landeskog, who is physically ready for the NHL game, you also see that his skills are also NHL-ready. He's in the NHL right now not only because he's big enough and strong enough to compete, but because his skills are at a level where they allow him to compete at the NHL level.
I don't think the same can be said for Niederreiter. I don't think his passing game is NHL-ready. I don't think his ability to create chances on his own is quite NHL-ready. I don't think his skating speed is NHL-ready. Those three aspects could be worked on at the junior level, playing 20+ minutes a night to work on them, instead of being forced to play "safe" hockey on the 4th line at the NHL level.
I don't think the same can be said for Niederreiter. I don't think his passing game is NHL-ready. I don't think his ability to create chances on his own is quite NHL-ready. I don't think his skating speed is NHL-ready. Those three aspects could be worked on at the junior level, playing 20+ minutes a night to work on them, instead of being forced to play "safe" hockey on the 4th line at the NHL level.
At least 80% of the teams in the league would not have had him with the big team this year, maybe more.
The 4th line, 7 minutes a night season he's had was a disgrace. No reason a guy like Wallace couldn't/shouldn't have finished out the season in that role.
If indeed the primary - if not sole - reason he was here this season is because they wanted his contract counting against the cap, then that was a true, true travesty.
the idea that niederrieter demolished competition in the whl is beyond laughable. he produced well in the regular season but he didn't come close to dominating. for those who actually followed the whl playoffs last year, you saw a player who dominated a pathetic club in the opening round and then did very little for the rest of playoffs before portland bowed out. in my opinion, he showed he still had much to learn with this average performance. i rank his overall performance in the whl last year as: meh.
we should also have a look at his world junior championship in buffalo. i actually saw him play live there. i rank his overall performance here as: meh.
at training camp he was outclassed. he was in over his head in pre-season games for pity's sake! i rank his overall performance here as: brutal.
the result? he makes the team. typical new york islanders...
this player's performance last year and at this year's camp screamed for another year of junior. for those people who suggest he is too good for the whl didn't watch him last year or have never watched the whl. i honestly believe that those people who make the claim that niederrieter would be wasting his time in portland simply don't know squat about the game.
They are two completely different players. Sven projects to be a Cammalleri type of offensive forward. Despite the mishandling of Nino, he still projects to be a power forward style of player. That's only if both hit their potential. It's all preference at that point.
Whether or not you feel the organization made a mistake in taking the 'wrong Swiss player', there's nothing that can be done about that now. This question will be answered many years in the future so there is no use in lamenting it now when it is nowhere close to being determined.
It shouldn't be preference that's the thing. If Bartschi turned out to be a Mike Cammaleri type player compared to Nino who for example could be a Benoit Puliot type player, then you should go with the Mike Cammaleri type player because he is better overall. If you decide he doesn't fit your system or you want size, then you can deal him for a top 4 dman or power foward of the same prowess. That's just being smart.
Not trying to take away from Strome's stats but it's a forward thats been in nets for Erie. Not a 100% sure but the goalie seemed to have gotten hurt just over a minute into the game and the backup must have been sick so center Connor Crisp put the pads on.
Not trying to take away from Strome's stats but it's a forward thats been in nets for Erie. Not a 100% sure but the goalie seemed to have gotten hurt just over a minute into the game and the backup must have been sick so center Connor Crisp put the pads on.
I'm aware. Not sure why they ran up the score, but I guess Strome isn't so merciful.
the idea that niederrieter demolished competition in the whl is beyond laughable. he produced well in the regular season but he didn't come close to dominating. for those who actually followed the whl playoffs last year, you saw a player who dominated a pathetic club in the opening round and then did very little for the rest of playoffs before portland bowed out. in my opinion, he showed he still had much to learn with this average performance. i rank his overall performance in the whl last year as: meh.
we should also have a look at his world junior championship in buffalo. i actually saw him play live there. i rank his overall performance here as: meh.
at training camp he was outclassed. he was in over his head in pre-season games for pity's sake! i rank his overall performance here as: brutal.
the result? he makes the team. typical new york islanders...
this player's performance last year and at this year's camp screamed for another year of junior. for those people who suggest he is too good for the whl didn't watch him last year or have never watched the whl. i honestly believe that those people who make the claim that niederrieter would be wasting his time in portland simply don't know squat about the game.
I guess that's directed at me. I feel like I wasted my time watching on average about 125 games a year since 1971-obviously less in the early years when there was no cable. I may not know anything about the game but at least I had a good time watching the Isles and other games on NHL Center Ice and some Junior and College games when available.
Although I know "squat about hockey" it seems rather logical that a team that drafts at number 5 and selects Nino while players drafted after him including Cam Fowler and Jeff Skinner perform at a decent NHL level while Nino needs additional time made a scouting mistake. Normally you draft the best player at that spot instead of a speculative project. i know my opinion means little but I still feel that Nino is more a drafting mistake as opposed to a developmental mistake.
I guess that's directed at me. I feel like I wasted my time watching on average about 125 games a year since 1971-obviously less in the early years when there was no cable. I may not know anything about the game but at least I had a good time watching the Isles and other games on NHL Center Ice and some Junior and College games when available.
Although I know "squat about hockey" it seems rather logical that a team that drafts at number 5 and selects Nino while players drafted after him including Cam Fowler and Jeff Skinner perform at a decent NHL level while Nino needs additional time made a scouting mistake. Normally you draft the best player at that spot instead of a speculative project. i know my opinion means little but I still feel that Nino is more a drafting mistake as opposed to a developmental mistake.
first, many isles fans have suggested that the whl is beneath niederrieter and i find that to be a statement made out of ignorance more times than not.
second, teams draft players who are deemed to be "projects" all the time. sometimes they pan out, sometimes they don't. jeff skinner was obviously more polished than niederreiter was at the time of the draft but niederreiter was higher on a lot of draft lists. my point is that i disagree that the best player is taken rather than a speculative project.
finally, you could be right about niederrieter being a drafting mistake. the islanders just might be making matters worse by developing him improperly, however.
I'm not worried about Niederreiter. He was one of the youngest guys in that particular draft. In fact, the afore mentioned Landeskog is only a month or two younger than Niederreiter. Landeskog is also playing with a center who has more than 0 goals. Niederreiter is a huge part of the Isle's future, and anyone giving up on him now is just way too impatient.
Florida would've drafted Bouwmeester with or without the trade. They traded down to gain an extra asset only after securing promises from both MacLean and Waddell. Which is also why they got so little in return.
Pronger I don't recall the details surrounding, so it very well may be contrary to my point. I suspect San Jose wanted Kozlov, but since I don't know I'll assume that you're right on this one. Hoever, even then, if there is one example in the past 20 years of drafts, frankly, I think that says a lot about the how likely it is that my point is valid. Once a team traded Kvasha and Parrish for Luongo and Jokinen. It doesn't mean it makes sense to criticize a GM for not making a trade like that.
Hardly. Could it be that most teams have a fairly even spread of prospects/picks? We are in a unique place created by always going with a forward on our high end picks until very recently with CdH. That's why they need to do something to balance the sheets. Obviously they can't use free agency.
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First off, in the 2008 draft most saw the first drop off being after Stamkos, and then the second being after whichever Dman went #4. There was a lot of speculation as to which Dman was going to go #2. But even then, it doesn't matter, because regardless, every draft pundit and scout felt there was a significant dropoff after #4 and there was very little debate as to who the top four picks were going to be, just which order the Dmen would be taken in.
Doesn't matter. The value of the player being thrown in by the Islanders doesn't change in this instance. However, as you said, yes, there was a drop in prospect level after the top two. Many had Doughty at or above Stamkos, btw. It wasn't clearly Stamkos #1.
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You're the one that brought Lindros into comparison. If you'd prefer to leave him out, that's fine.
Why did I bring him in is the important part of that. Whether he forced a move or not, no one had to trade for him. They could have let Quebec drown in their own tears. The fact is another team ponied up a package, and the deal happened. That he was so so much higher in value than any of the guys I've named says the trade chips would have been less, and I think affordable.
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I didn't say he wasn't interested in Okposo. I said that he wouldn't give up the opportunity to draft Larsson for Okposo. And it's for the same reasons you wish we would've traded Okposo to move up, that Lou wouldn't have done it.
Hard to say that once we offered him KO + our 1st, second, & 3rd perhaps. Too much? Not when you are staring at the reality of our defense as it is for the next 4 years or longer.
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Great, it's easy to say overpay. But would you really do it? If Lou told you Tavares better be on the table or there's no point in even discussing things, would you put JT on the table? Because it's likely, that's the kind of overpayment you'd be looking at. Larsson a) filled an immediate need for NJ b) filled a longterm need c) was the best pick d) was in a different tier than anyone available at a later pick and e) is the kind of player Lou covets. I highly doubt Lou was even listening to offers. And Okposo and our 1st almost certainly wouldn't have been the overpayment necessary.
You know this how, again? You do realize you asked how I knew we could do it, yet you assume we couldn't? It's a two way street. And no it isn't easy to overpay, but in this case yes it would be. You overpay no matter what because it is that important. And no way would JT be on the table. That's either silly or insulting that you'd throw that out there. You pick your meaning for me.
Lindros went for far less than JT (and Hamonic, and so on.) Larsson isn't in that same company. What did Burke pay for a proven player from Boston? Larsson isn't proven. Would I move 2 firsts for him though? I think we could get it done without using 2 firsts, but yes they could have Bailey & KO plus the 4th pick if necessary. That's KO and Bails for 1 slot down. Remember, 1 slot, and Strome and Hamilton aren't exactly crap. And yes we need a high end defensive prospect that bad.
Considering how this team refuses to add any experienced support to help ease these prospects into the NHL. I want ALL of our prospects to satisfy all 100% of their eligibility in Juniors. On top of that, a year minimum and depending on the player maybe two years at Bridgeport.
This way we aren't exposing 18, 19 and 20 year old's to the wolves, when most at that age aren't ready to handle the NHL. Take the Red Wings, Penguins, and Rangers for example. They can bring young kids right up from juniors with better success, because they are sporting balanced teams. Their kids aren't spinning their wheels playing on the 3rd and 4th lines, like ours are. Their 3rd and 4th line duty is actually productive and they are learning playing with better experienced talent. They are actually getting acclimated into the NHL in healthy way.
All along I have believed Nino would be better served in Portland for another year, that said, if we see Nino in Bridge next year that will be a resiliency factor in his development; and he'll be back on track.
You all have to remember that there were quotes around draft time talking about Snow trying to move up to grab one of the three dmen after Stamkos. So its not like he didn't want to do it, the trade was just not right obviously (or there was never anything actually on the table).
I'm not worried about Niederreiter. He was one of the youngest guys in that particular draft. In fact, the afore mentioned Landeskog is only a month or two younger than Niederreiter. Landeskog is also playing with a center who has more than 0 goals. Niederreiter is a huge part of the Isle's future, and anyone giving up on him now is just way too impatient.
I agree w/Butch that Nino has appeared to be more comfortable of late. Much more defensively responsible.
I'd love to see the kid play with some grit and throw the body. Seems to me that he passes up lot's of opportunities to hammer people.
I guess that's directed at me. I feel like I wasted my time watching on average about 125 games a year since 1971-obviously less in the early years when there was no cable. I may not know anything about the game but at least I had a good time watching the Isles and other games on NHL Center Ice and some Junior and College games when available.
Although I know "squat about hockey" it seems rather logical that a team that drafts at number 5 and selects Nino while players drafted after him including Cam Fowler and Jeff Skinner perform at a decent NHL level while Nino needs additional time made a scouting mistake. Normally you draft the best player at that spot instead of a speculative project. i know my opinion means little but I still feel that Nino is more a drafting mistake as opposed to a developmental mistake.
can we call the kid a bust at 24...the kids 19 for fracks sake....
13-4 is the score...
