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If Lemieux & Gretzky played the same # of games (the best comparison I've ever seen)

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Old
12-28-2011, 08:38 PM
  #1
tazzy19
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If Lemieux & Gretzky played the same # of games (the best comparison I've ever seen)

http://www.blogofmike.com/2011/01/gr...ey-played.html

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12-29-2011, 05:40 PM
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Big Phil
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Nice comparison, although it still favours Gretzky.

Another one was done in the book "Let's Talk Hockey 50 Wonderful Debates". That one favours Gretzky too and even lets you use your imagination as to what Lemieux "could" have done.

Either way Mario's PPG would have suffered a bit of a hit if he played from 1997-'00 as well. No way is he cracking 2 points a game at that time. Even if it's 1.60 it still takes a hit. And if he played all his games from 2000-'06 it drops as well. Statistically no matter how you shred it, Mario doesn't reach 2,857 points. Maybe, maybe 2,500.

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12-29-2011, 08:15 PM
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tazzy19
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I find it amazing that Wayne still beats Lemieux in GPG average and goal scoring every step of the way despite leaving Mario in the dust in assists. I also found it funny how everyone points to Lemieux's 160 points in 60 games as maybe the best season of all time when Gretzky had 175 points in his first 60 games in 83-84.

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12-29-2011, 08:41 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Interesting stuff I wonder what happens if we expand all of Mario and Wayne's seasons to full games and adjust for the scoring in that season as well?

I don't have the time to do it right now but it might be closer than people think or different.

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12-29-2011, 08:55 PM
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Cujomi
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It's still hard to complain because you have to assume that Lemieux's overall level of play took a hit due to the health issues that he always had. I doubt he had a lot of time at true "full health" where he could have been training or playing as he was constantly rehabbing from injury or dealing with it.

That said there's no question that Gretzky outdoes Mario statistically. Watching them both play though there's no question in my mind that Lemieux was the better individual talent.

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12-29-2011, 08:58 PM
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imagine how higher Mario's point totals would be if he didn't smoke lol

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12-29-2011, 09:16 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Okay I ran the Adjusted numbers for Mario and he would have 2289 points if we calculate every season he played and took the adjusted points to a full 84 game season.

Even if we guess and add the 3 missing seasons of 98,99 and 00 and give him 150 adjusted points for those full 84 game seasons (he had 140 in 97 and 160 in 01 adjusted for 84 games) he still only has 2819 points.

Wayne before we adjust to 84 games a season and he already has 2475 adjusted points and we can add 193 games to his adjusted total.

If we take his career average and adjust the 193 games he ends up 2796 points roughly.

But it's only close if we account for those 4 non seasons.

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12-29-2011, 11:14 PM
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Vincent Vega
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I find it amazing that Wayne still beats Lemieux in GPG average and goal scoring every step of the way despite leaving Mario in the dust in assists. I also found it funny how everyone points to Lemieux's 160 points in 60 games as maybe the best season of all time when Gretzky had 175 points in his first 60 games in 83-84.
160 in 60 was the cancer season, dude. Mario was leading the league in scoring, got cancer, beat it, came back, reclaimed the scoring lead. That is one of the most amazing seasons in not just hockey but all of sports.

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12-29-2011, 11:51 PM
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Mario scored 199 with quinn and brown, would be very interesting if messier was on his left wing and kurri was on his right wing.

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12-30-2011, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Mario scored 199 with quinn and brown, would be very interesting if messier was on his left wing and kurri was on his right wing.
It's funny but Brown and to a lesser degree quinn were very good offensive players they just couldn't do anything else to stay in the league.

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12-30-2011, 01:30 AM
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tazzy19
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Mario scored 199 with quinn and brown, would be very interesting if messier was on his left wing and kurri was on his right wing.
Just take a look at the top 4 scorers from the 88-89 Penguins vs the 81-82 Edmonton Oilers:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000501989.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000411982.html

As we can see, it isn't even close. The Oilers have only one 100 point player (Anderson), and Gretzky more than DOUBLES his output. Kurri and Messier are off the radar, and Coffey too. I really don't think Wayne needed Messier and Kurri as much as they needed him. Mario, on the other hand, has 2 players around 115 points, and another around 100, including a prime Coffey feeding him stretch pass after stretch pass.

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12-30-2011, 02:04 AM
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tazzy19
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It's still hard to complain because you have to assume that Lemieux's overall level of play took a hit due to the health issues that he always had. I doubt he had a lot of time at true "full health" where he could have been training or playing as he was constantly rehabbing from injury or dealing with it.

That said there's no question that Gretzky outdoes Mario statistically. Watching them both play though there's no question in my mind that Lemieux was the better individual talent.
Who had the better individual talent is debatable. Hockey sense is an individual talent, no? Either way, hockey is not an individual based game. Gretzky's talent was in using the entire team as an extension of himself. A player who can control and exploit five players is more powerful than one superhuman
individual.

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12-30-2011, 03:24 AM
  #13
archangel archangel
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I love threads like this

theory for vs facts

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12-30-2011, 09:33 AM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by richard armus View Post
I love threads like this

theory for vs facts
That's what I like about this particular comparison: it compares what they ACTUALLY did over the same number if games. And Gretzky still beats Lemieux in every category. Yes, Lemieux had health issues, but we can't know for sure if Lemieux would have scored more if he were healthy. He might have scored less PPG. (He might have scored more because of the massive amounts if rest he had, too.) It's a statistical fact that the more games someone plays over the course of a season, the lower their PPG average. The year Lemieux scored 199 points, he actually had slightlymore points in his first 60 games than the year he had 160 in 60....but again, his average dropped over a full season. This is the part everyone forgets about when discussing what Mario could have done. It just isn't the same as actually doing it.

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12-30-2011, 11:45 AM
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edog37
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Who had the better individual talent is debatable. Hockey sense is an individual talent, no? Either way, hockey is not an individual based game. Gretzky's talent was in using the entire team as an extension of himself. A player who can control and exploit five players is more powerful than one superhuman
individual.
except that Lemieux had the ability to end games on command. I saw him light up teams left & right throughout his career because he decided the game would be won. That is where he was the better player than the pipsqueak.

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12-30-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by richard armus View Post
I love threads like this

theory for vs facts
except that one simple measurement isn't taken into consideration. Put Gretzky on those awful Pens teams in the 80s & put Lemieux on the 80s Oilers. Of course, there is no mathematical way to calculate it, but I daresay the numbers would be far different.

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12-30-2011, 12:54 PM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
except that one simple measurement isn't taken into consideration. Put Gretzky on those awful Pens teams in the 80s & put Lemieux on the 80s Oilers. Of course, there is no mathematical way to calculate it, but I daresay the numbers would be far different.
Again, I refer you to the 81-82 season when Gretzky recorded 212 points, and Kurri, Messier, and Coffey all had around 85 points, and Gretzky more than doubled the 2nd leading scorer on the Oilers (Anderson, who wasn't on his line with 105 points).

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12-30-2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
except that Lemieux had the ability to end games on command. I saw him light up teams left & right throughout his career because he decided the game would be won. That is where he was the better player than the pipsqueak.
Then why does Gretzky have more game winning goals over the same number of games, and hold the playoff record for game winning goals?

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12-30-2011, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
except that Lemieux had the ability to end games on command. I saw him light up teams left & right throughout his career because he decided the game would be won. That is where he was the better player than the pipsqueak.
When you make derogatory comments like that it makes it very hard to take your opinion seriously.

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12-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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except that Lemieux had the ability to end games on command. I saw him light up teams left & right throughout his career because he decided the game would be won. That is where he was the better player than the pipsqueak.
Do you refer to playoffs 1993, game 7 against the Islanders in overtime? I think it would've been a good time for Lemieux to end the game...

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12-30-2011, 03:14 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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The one thing the comparison doesn't do is take into account league scoring levels. I think once you do that, Mario looks like a slightly better goal scorer. Gretzky is a much better playmaker though.

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12-30-2011, 03:20 PM
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I think this debate is done and Gretzky won it , but we have to admit Mario Lemieux was the nicest prototype of the offensive player in the sense he was literally more than elite in any skills category , was bigger than almost every player in the league but still had all the skills that are normally reserved for smaller players.He was the funniest athlete to watch of all-time as far as I'm concerned ( with an evidant bias toward hockey from me ).
He was also the one when you looked him play who was the most dominating in a eye-witness sense , while we all know Gretzky's formula was the best , he didn't looked as dominating as Lemieux who was simply a train.

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12-30-2011, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Then why does Gretzky have more game winning goals over the same number of games, and hold the playoff record for game winning goals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irato99 View Post
Do you refer to playoffs 1993, game 7 against the Islanders in overtime? I think it would've been a good time for Lemieux to end the game...

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Old
12-30-2011, 03:32 PM
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overpass
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The post linked here is a good one for the Gretzky-Lemieux debate. But as far as I'm concerned, this post about Gretzky and Lemieux's head to head record settles it.

Leave out Gretzky's Edmonton years to make it fair. In 14 games against each other from 1988-89 on, Lemieux produced 8-17-25 and Gretzky produced 8-26-34. Lemieux was -11 and Gretzky was +15. Gretzky's teams won 10 of the 14 games.

Although it's only 14 games, the reason I think it's the ultimate trump card is that the whole argument for Lemieux is based on one game or one series. He might miss a few games in a season or in his career, but in one game he was the best.

But it appears Lemieux wouldn't be the best player to take for one game...because the other team could take Gretzky, and they would win.

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12-30-2011, 03:45 PM
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tazzy19
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^^^ And what's amazing is that Gretz beats Mario with his assists alone, yet Mario still doesn't beat him in goals -- and this is post Edmonton! If you look at their head to head overall, including the Oilers games, it gets even more ridiculous...

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