Ps. You pretty much lost me after saying that Crosby and Jagr would challenge 160 point Gretzky for scoring titles.
Jágr scored 149 points in 95-96', with a goals per game average being 6.29 that season. Gretzky scored 168 points in 88-89', the gpg was 7.48. That is a huge difference, I'm absolutely convinced Jágr would have no trouble gaining the extra 11 or 19 points in such a high-scoring environment.
Gretzky is certainly one of the best players ever, maybe the best player ever, but let's not pretend his numbers weren't inflated by the era he was playing in. They were, big time.
Jágr scored 149 points in 95-96', with a goals per game average being 6.29 that season. Gretzky scored 168 points in 88-89', the gpg was 7.48. That is a huge difference, I'm absolutely convinced Jágr would have no trouble gaining the extra 11 or 19 points in such a high-scoring environment.
Gretzky is certainly one of the best players ever, maybe the best player ever, but let's not pretend his numbers weren't inflated by the era he was playing in. They were, big time.
The problem with this thinking is that we are comparing two players that played in that exact same high scoring era and Mario couldn't keep up to Gretzky.
We then fast forward to 2001, right in the middle of the lowest modern era (last 40 years) and a 36 year old, Cancer recovered Mario with a bad back puts up 76 points in just 43 games (145 point pace over 82 games).
Inflated by era sure but that still doesn't mean that Wayne wouldn't be completely blowing anyone playing today out of the water. 150-180 points might not be the 200-215 he put up in the 80's but it might as well be by today's standards.
And yes, I have no doubt what so ever that a prime Gretzky would still be able to put up 150-180 points a season today for a good 5 year or more stretch.
Anyone who says different either didn't see Gretzky play or quite simply didn't understand him.
I like Crosby and wish him the best, but even post-Edmonton Gretzky was a better scorer than Crosby.
Crosby scored 1.61 points per game in 2011. There were 5.58 goals per game.
Gretzky scored 2.09 points per game in 1991. There were 6.92 goals per game. If we "translate" that into 2011's scoring environment, that works out to approximately 1.69 points per game (2.09 / 6.92 * 5.58).
We're comparing Crosby's best season to what is probably Gretzky's 8th best season, and Gretzy still comes out ahead by a solid 5% margin. That ignores the fact that Crosby only maintained that pace over half a season. If we look at Gretzky's best 41 game stretch in 1991 (2.27 unadjusted, 1.83 ppg in 2011's scoring environment) then Gretzky jumps out to a 13% lead in per-game productivity (again, comparing Crosby's best season to Gretzky's eighth best).
It's possible to make a credible argument that Crosby was a better overall player than post-Edmonton Gretzky on the basis of his two-way play. Still, Gretzky had at least an 11-year stretch (1981 to 1991) of offensive dominance, spanning two teams, that Crosby has not yet reached.
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If we do the same analysis for Jagr:
- his 1.82 ppg in 1996, in a league with 6.28 gpg, works out to 1.62 ppg in today's environment
- his 1.57 ppg in 1999, in a league with 5.26 gpg, works out to 1.67 ppg in today's environment
Gretzky is still ahead, but the lead is very small. Jagr at his very best was almost as good as Gretzky in LA offensively (though, unlike Crosby, he doesn't gain any ground on Gretzky due to two-way play).
Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 01-02-2012 at 01:35 PM.
The problem with this thinking is that we are comparing two players that played in that exact same high scoring era and Mario couldn't keep up to Gretzky.
We then fast forward to 2001, right in the middle of the lowest modern era (last 40 years) and a 36 year old, Cancer recovered Mario with a bad back puts up 76 points in just 43 games (145 point pace over 82 games).
Inflated by era sure but that still doesn't mean that Wayne wouldn't be completely blowing anyone playing today out of the water. 150-180 points might not be the 200-215 he put up in the 80's but it might as well be by today's standards.
And yes, I have no doubt what so ever that a prime Gretzky would still be able to put up 150-180 points a season today for a good 5 year or more stretch.
Anyone who says different either didn't see Gretzky play or quite simply didn't understand him.
Mario couldn't keep up (statistically) with Gretzky mainly because of injuries and because of the fact that he was 4 years younger, so that he didn't benefit from reaching his prime in early to mid-80's. You brought up Mario's post-return stats... well, Gretzky himself couldn't keep up with him during the dead puck era.
Mario was 35 when he came back, his PPG from this point to his final game is 1.35 (00-06').
Gretzky's PPG since reaching the age of 35 is 1.07 (96-99'), or slightly higher if you include portion of the 95-96' season.
It's a stupid estimate but I do think Gretzky would be a 50-100-150 player in today's NHL, there are some people (such as the OP) though who believe he would be putting up over 200 points per season, drastical decrease in league scoring regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Gretzky is still ahead, but the lead is very small. Jagr at his very best was almost as good as Gretzky in LA offensively (though, unlike Crosby, he doesn't gain any ground on Gretzky due to two-way play).
Fair enough, the point is whether Crosby or Jágr could challenge Gretzky's numbers from his L.A. times. No one can say whether they could beat him but it's likely both of them would be very close. 1.61 vs. 1.69... it counts for a mere 7 point difference in an 82 game season. It looks like if you compare an L.A. Gretzky with a prime Jágr and the best we've seen from Crosby so far, their offensive output is very similar. I think it's pointless to argue which one of them would win the Art Ross but it seems safe to say both Crosby and Jágr would at least be able to challenge Gretzky.
Thing about Gretzky playing in a higher scoring era is the fact that he was so dominant offensively that he literally changed the style of play in the entire NHL. He was not a product of a higher scoring era he was the catalyst that created it.
As great of a player that Lemieux was in respect to individual skill I do not believe he would have impacted the overall style of play in the game like Gretzky did. Gretzky's hockey IQ, peripheral vision and incomparable passing skills did.
The Magnificent one benefitted from the Great One paving the way. He was not capable of surpassing the master but he was clearly the second best player of the times.
Needless to say the creator had a lot more hurdles to get through changing the style of the NHL game so that the follower could come in behind him and take advantage of it.
I like Crosby and wish him the best, but even post-Edmonton Gretzky was a better scorer than Crosby.
Crosby scored 1.61 points per game in 2011. There were 5.58 goals per game.
Gretzky scored 2.09 points per game in 1991. There were 6.92 goals per game. If we "translate" that into 2011's scoring environment, that works out to approximately 1.69 points per game (2.09 / 6.92 * 5.58).
We're comparing Crosby's best season to what is probably Gretzky's 8th best season, and Gretzy still comes out ahead by a solid 5% margin. That ignores the fact that Crosby only maintained that pace over half a season. If we look at Gretzky's best 41 game stretch in 1991 (2.27 unadjusted, 1.83 ppg in 2011's scoring environment) then Gretzky jumps out to a 13% lead in per-game productivity (again, comparing Crosby's best season to Gretzky's eighth best).
It's possible to make a credible argument that Crosby was a better overall player than post-Edmonton Gretzky on the basis of his two-way play. Still, Gretzky had at least an 11-year stretch (1981 to 1991) of offensive dominance, spanning two teams, that Crosby has not yet reached.
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If we do the same analysis for Jagr:
- his 1.82 ppg in 1996, in a league with 6.28 gpg, works out to 1.62 ppg in today's environment
- his 1.57 ppg in 1999, in a league with 5.26 gpg, works out to 1.67 ppg in today's environment
Gretzky is still ahead, but the lead is very small. Jagr at his very best was almost as good as Gretzky in LA offensively (though, unlike Crosby, he doesn't gain any ground on Gretzky due to two-way play).
What does that say about adam oates then? In 1991, his ppg was barely below gretzky and like you said, that was probably wayne's 8th best season. In 1992 Pat Lafontaine matched gretzky and in 1994, neely, federov and lindros were right there with him in ppg. So jagr and crosby were definetly above 1992 and 1994 gretzky. I think its fair to say both were better goal scorers than LA Gretz.
^^^^ I suppose it says that Oates was right there with Crosby, if not better, that year when he had Hull to feed passes to. Why is that so had to believe? As for Lafontaine in 1992, he only played in 57 games that year! Of course his PPG average is going to look good. Being on pace for something is hardly the same as actually doing it...otherwise in 1984 we would've considered Gretzky a 100 goal, 240 point player after his injury when his 51 point streak came to an end...but PPG average is much harder to sustain over a full season. It's the same thing with any player, whether it be Lafontaine or Gretzky, or whoever. It's just a testament to Gretzky that he STILL beat Lafontaine in PPG average despite playing 74 games -- and with a herniated disc no less! (One thing you're forgetting, is that in 1992 and 1994, Gretzky was no longer the same player he was in 1991 when he was hit by Gary Suter in the 1991 Canada Cup. He went from being a 2 PPG player to a 1.6 PPG player practically overnight after that hit.)
As for LA Wayne not being as good of a goal scorer as Jagr, of course he wasn't. By then he was focussed on playmaking, not scoring himself. It's amazing he was still scoring 40 to 50 goals actually. No one could touch him in assists though -- not Jagr, nor Crosby. Gretzky's 122 assist in 1991 is the 4th highest total in history, even better than most of his Oilers years, and almost enough to win the scoring title with his assists alone (yet again). And this on the Kings!
The thing that few people ever mention when it comes to comparing the two, is the amount of games Gretzky played in the playoffs on a yearly basis. The fact he played all those playoff games on top of all his regular season games make his accomplishments even more impressive.
While most players got to recover and relax during the off-season, Gretzky and company were deep into the playoffs every year and playing for Team Canada in the Canada Cup every four years. He had little to no time to ever recover but he never broke down.
No one could ever question Mario and his skill level but the comparison between the two isn't even close. You can't take longevity out of the equation and then just pull out whatever random stats you would like.. Lemieux did not play enough full seasons to even be mentioned in the same conversation as Gretzky.
I like this post. I too don't understand why this debate is even close.
^^^^ I suppose it says that Oates was right there with Crosby, if not better, that year when he had Hull to feed passes to. Why is that so had to believe? As for Lafontaine in 1992, he only played in 57 games that year! Of course his PPG average is going to look good. Being on pace for something is hardly the same as actually doing it...otherwise in 1984 we would've considered Gretzky a 100 goal, 240 point player after his injury when his 51 point streak came to an end...but PPG average is much harder to sustain over a full season. It's the same thing with any player, whether it be Lafontaine or Gretzky, or whoever. It's just a testament to Gretzky that he STILL beat Lafontaine in PPG average despite playing 74 games -- and with a herniated disc no less! (One thing you're forgetting, is that in 1992 and 1994, Gretzky was no longer the same player he was in 1991 when he was hit by Gary Suter in the 1991 Canada Cup. He went from being a 2 PPG player to a 1.6 PPG player practically overnight after that hit.)
As for LA Wayne not being as good of a goal scorer as Jagr, of course he wasn't. By then he was focussed on playmaking, not scoring himself. It's amazing he was still scoring 40 to 50 goals actually. No one could touch him in assists though -- not Jagr, nor Crosby. Gretzky's 122 assist in 1991 is the 4th highest total in history, even better than most of his Oilers years, and almost enough to win the scoring title with his assists alone (yet again). And this on the Kings!
My point is that if the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Oates and Lafontaine could hang with gretzky during his LA years from 89-94, why is it so hard to believe Jagr and Sid can't, considering that they are better than the players being mentioned.
My point is that if the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Oates and Lafontaine could hang with gretzky during his LA years from 89-94, why is it so hard to believe Jagr and Sid can't, considering that they are better than the players being mentioned.
Seems questionable to me that Jagr, as good as he is/was, would be able to hang with Yzerman and Messier in the big picture. In my mind he is a tier below them. Crosby still has to small of a sample size to warrant being in the convo. Prime or non-Prime considered.
My point is that if the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Oates and Lafontaine could hang with gretzky during his LA years from 89-94, why is it so hard to believe Jagr and Sid can't, considering that they are better than the players being mentioned.
You realise you're talking about these guys hanging with a 30+ year old Gretzky that had played 13 professional seasons already and been noticeably reduced in ability from one Gary Suter!
I mean that's fine, if you want to say that Jagr and Sid could "hang" with a well past his prime Gretzky who now has major back issues...that's fine.
But neither Sid or Jagr hold even the slightest candle to Gretzky in his prime offensively, THAT'S A FACT!
Also, it's debatable on whether or not Sid will go down in history as the better player than Yzerman or Messier. He's got a hell of a long way to go and it certainly doesn't look like good odds atm.
...and your '89-'94 classification is laughable at best. Aside from Mario, the only person "hanging" with Gretzky was Stevie Y one year in '89.
Besides that, no one hung with Gretzky until '92.
So '92-'99 would be the proper classification and if these are the years you want to use, where Gretzky was actually mortal, well...that's just a joke and a lame attempt to make Sid and Jagr look better.
THIS is all you have to know....
Gretzky's first 6 seasons....1122 points
Crosby's and Ovechkin's first 6 seasons combined....1186 points
Higher scoring era or not, that's just plain ridiculous!
And just for sh*ts and giggles, Gretzky's points totals after 7 years...1337 and I think most people know exactly what the significance of those exact numbers represents
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 01-02-2012 at 11:59 PM.
My point is that if the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Oates and Lafontaine could hang with gretzky during his LA years from 89-94, why is it so hard to believe Jagr and Sid can't, considering that they are better than the players being mentioned.
Again, you can't group "89-91 Gretzky" in with "92-94 Gretzky". He wasn't the same player after the Suter hit in 91. None of those aforementioned players could "hang" with Gretzky (unless it was at the race track with John Candy) from 89-91. Yzerman had one monstrous year ala Bernie Nicholls in his career, and that year happens to be the highest in NHL history outside of Lemieux and Gretzky himself -- and yet he was still 13 points back of Gretzky that season. Yzerman never again came close. I would hardly call that "hanging". More like window shopping.
As for Messier and Oates, let's not even go there....
Gretzky's numbers will always look better on paper. He is number 1 and he deserves it.
Lemieux- its unfortunate with all his injury/health problems. He probably could have put up Gretzky like numbers
The only thing I will say that Lemieux was beter at was goal scoring. He played way more games in the dead puck era than Gretzky, and not only that missed out on some high scoring years in the 80s because he started later than Gretz.
No doubt in my mind if Lemieux played a realitvely heathy 1487 games like Gretzky and started in 1979-1980 he would have scored 1100-1200 goals. Yup I just said that.
You realise you're talking about these guys hanging with a 30+ year old Gretzky that had played 13 professional seasons already and been noticeably reduced in ability from one Gary Suter!
I mean that's fine, if you want to say that Jagr and Sid could "hang" with a well past his prime Gretzky who now has major back issues...that's fine.
But neither Sid or Jagr hold even the slightest candle to Gretzky in his prime offensively, THAT'S A FACT!
Also, it's debatable on whether or not Sid will go down in history as the better player than Yzerman or Messier. He's got a hell of a long way to go and it certainly doesn't look like good odds atm.
...and your '89-'94 classification is laughable at best. Aside from Mario, the only person "hanging" with Gretzky was Stevie Y one year in '89.
Besides that, no one hung with Gretzky until '92.
So '92-'99 would be the proper classification and if these are the years you want to use, where Gretzky was actually mortal, well...that's just a joke and a lame attempt to make Sid and Jagr look better.
THIS is all you have to know....
Gretzky's first 6 seasons....1122 points
Crosby's and Ovechkin's first 6 seasons combined....1186 points
Higher scoring era or not, that's just plain ridiculous!
And just for sh*ts and giggles, Gretzky's points totals after 7 years...1337 and I think most people know exactly what the significance of those exact numbers represents
No, im saying jagr and sid at thier best could legitimately challenge gretzky from 89-91. Jagr and Sid are not peak gretzky but um offensively they are better than messier and yzerman and are the 3rd and 4th best offensive players since 1980, whether you like it or not.
Crosby from 2007 to 2011 and Jagr from 95-2001 were better than yzerman and messier.
If oates could average 1.95 points per game in 1991, you would have to be delusional to think jagr wouldnt. I dont care if oates was playing with brett hull that year. Gretzky was playing with nicholls and robitaille during his la years, brett hull is not really the superstar that everyone makes him out to be. Without oates, he was a mike gartner caliber player.
I still find it funny that you think crosby has a hell of a long way to go. Yzerman and Messier were top 10 scorers six times in careers that lasted over 20 years, crosby already has 4 in 6 years and would have 6 already, and hes 24 for darn sakes!
Also my main purpose of bringing up gretzky's time in LA was to mention the fact that Lemieux's 1996 season IMO was better than any season gretzky had in LA. I never tried to claim crosby and jagr can outscore a prime gretzky. If you want to diss jagr and crosby and make them your whipping boys, thats fine with me. I never compared them to peak gretzky in the first place.
Again, you can't group "89-91 Gretzky" in with "92-94 Gretzky". He wasn't the same player after the Suter hit in 91. None of those aforementioned players could "hang" with Gretzky (unless it was at the race track with John Candy) from 89-91. Yzerman had one monstrous year ala Bernie Nicholls in his career, and that year happens to be the highest in NHL history outside of Lemieux and Gretzky himself -- and yet he was still 13 points back of Gretzky that season. Yzerman never again came close. I would hardly call that "hanging". More like window shopping.
As for Messier and Oates, let's not even go there....
Well yzerman did come close in 1989.
In 1990 gretzky scored at a pace of 156 points, messier had a pace of 131. I think its safe to say peak jagr and crosby outscore messier.
Gretzky scores 163 in 1991, Oates was on pace to score 148 in 78 games. I dont care if he played with hull, he hit 142 in 93 with joe juneau. If Oates could score 1.9 ppg, so can sid and jagr.
No, im saying jagr and sid at thier best could legitimately challenge gretzky from 89-91. Jagr and Sid are not peak gretzky but um offensively they are better than messier and yzerman and are the 3rd and 4th best offensive players since 1980, whether you like it or not.
Crosby from 2007 to 2011 and Jagr from 95-2001 were better than yzerman and messier.
If oates could average 1.95 points per game in 1991, you would have to be delusional to think jagr wouldnt. I dont care if oates was playing with brett hull that year. Gretzky was playing with nicholls and robitaille during his la years, brett hull is not really the superstar that everyone makes him out to be. Without oates, he was a mike gartner caliber player.
I still find it funny that you think crosby has a hell of a long way to go. Yzerman and Messier were top 10 scorers six times in careers that lasted over 20 years, crosby already has 4 in 6 years and would have 6 already, and hes 24 for darn sakes!
How was Crosby a better offensive player than Ovechkin? Better overall maybe, but better offensively?
How was Crosby a better offensive player than Ovechkin? Better overall maybe, but better offensively?
From 08-10 crosby was close to ovechkin, in 2007 and 2011 crosby blew him out of the water. It's close, but i think crosby is better offensively. If crosby's finished then i guess they would be about the same, but i think he will add more to his legacy while ovy will be eating cheeseburgers.
Well yzerman did come close in 1989.
In 1990 gretzky scored at a pace of 156 points, messier had a pace of 131. I think its safe to say peak jagr and crosby outscore messier.
Gretzky scores 163 in 1991, Oates was on pace to score 148 in 78 games. I dont care if he played with hull, he hit 142 in 93 with joe juneau. If Oates could score 1.9 ppg, so can sid and jagr.
I have no issue with the placing of Jagr as prolly the 3rd best offensive forward in modern history but Crosby has NOT achieved that level yet.
Sid is NOT on par with Jagr yet. When Sid is still putting up 100+ point seasons in his 30's and then still scoring at a ppg pace in his 40's, he can have that distinction but not a second before.
And what about Jagr, here he is in his 40's scoring a ppg. What in the hell does that tell you about the rest of the players today?
Jagr in his prime barely matches up with a post '91 Gretzky and couldn't even tie a prime Wayne's skate laces.
You keep bringing up people keeping up with or "hanging" with Gretz and Mario.
Lets reverse that and talk about the players that are able to "hang" with Sid....the Sedins, Thornton. Like c'mon dude, you can talk about Yzerman and Messier like they are supposedly weak offensively compared to Sid but they are still a class above the Sedin's and Joe "Mr. Glass" Thornton.
Last I checked, in Sid's last full season in 2010, Henrik out scored him and took home the Art Ross and the Hart.
That hardly makes for much inspiration in your argument now does it?
All we have from Sid is one HALF season in his 6th year where he looked like he was finally pulling away from everyone else, THAT'S IT!
At least with Yzerman, we have a FULL monster season where he left everyone except Mario, Gretzky and anyone associated with the two of them in the dust.
You quite simply can't justify the automatic placement of Sid over Yzerman and Messier when you can't even justify Sid over either of the Sedin's at this point heh.
Holds ZERO water my friend.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 01-03-2012 at 01:41 AM.
I have no issue with the placing of Jagr as prolly the 3rd best offensive forward in modern history but Crosby has NOT achieved that level yet.
Sid is NOT on par with Jagr yet. When Sid is still putting up 100+ point seasons in his 30's and then still scoring at a ppg pace in his 40's, he can have that distinction but not a second before.
And what about Jagr, here he is in his 40's scoring a ppg. What in the hell does that tell you about the rest of the players today?
Jagr in his prime barely matches up with a post '91 Gretzky and couldn't even tie a prime Wayne's skate laces.
You keep bringing up people keeping up with or "hanging" with Gretz and Mario.
Lets reverse that and talk about the players that are able to "hang" with Sid....the Sedins, Thornton. Like c'mon dude, you can talk about Yzerman and Messier like they are supposedly weak offensively compared to Sid but they are still a class above the Sedin's and Joe "Mr. Glass" Thornton.
Last I checked, in Sid's last full season in 2010, Henrik out scored him and took home the Art Ross and the Hart.
That hardly makes for much inspiration in your argument now does it?
All we have from Sid is one HALF season in his 6th year where he looked like he was finally pulling away from everyone else, THAT'S IT!
At least with Yzerman, we have a FULL monster season where he left everyone except Mario, Gretzky and anyone associated with the two of them in the dust.
Your right, alot of it is based on Sid's amazing 41 game stretch. However, he did produce 'art ross offense' in 2007 and was on pace for 125 I believe. The 2007 sid probably comes up short compared to 1989 and 1991 gretzky, but i think he outscores Messier in 1990 and could steal the art ross from gretzky in 1990. The 1995-2001 jagr vs 1989 or 1991 gretzky would be a fun scoring race to watch. Not saying jagr outscores him, but he would be a threat.
Sid was outscored by henrik in 2010 and datsyuk was just as good in 2009, your right, but sid also has great playoff runs in those years, something that was lacking in yzerman's peak, which he eventually made up for in 1998 and 2002.
My main purpose of bringing up gretzky's LA years is that they don't compare to Mario's amazing 1996 campaign and mario had plenty of mileage and injury in 1996, he wasnt some new kid on the block. 189 point pace in the 1990's is insane.
Your right, alot of it is based on Sid's amazing 41 game stretch. However, he did produce 'art ross offense' in 2007 and was on pace for 125 I believe. The 2007 sid probably comes up short compared to 1989 and 1991 gretzky, but i think he outscores Messier in 1990 and could steal the art ross from gretzky in 1990. The 1995-2001 jagr vs 1989 or 1991 gretzky would be a fun scoring race to watch. Not saying jagr outscores him, but he would be a threat.
Sid was outscored by henrik in 2010 and datsyuk was just as good in 2009, your right, but sid also has great playoff runs in those years, something that was lacking in yzerman's peak, which he eventually made up for in 1998 and 2002.
My main purpose of bringing up gretzky's LA years is that they don't compare to Mario's amazing 1996 campaign and mario had plenty of mileage and injury in 1996, he wasnt some new kid on the block. 189 point pace in the 1990's is insane.
I think you need to take a step back and really think about some of what you're typing man.
Again, I have no issue with Mario being insane but you suggesting that Sid could actually "steal" an Art Ross from Gretzky is ridiculous!
He can't even steal one from either of the Sedins and was only able to steal one from all time great Joe Thornton.
Like I tried to point out to you, you can't use these other players and where their margins compared to Gretz and Mario yet continue to ignore Sid's very own lack luster margins over and under even un-Yzerman or Messier level competition.
You're very quick to dismiss Yzerman's monster year because he only did it once yet Sid hasn't even done that and you want to elevate him to Jagr's level...sorry man, doesn't work for me.
I'm aware of what gretzky did in LA, none of his la seasons are as good as Mario's best seasons. He's the only other player to approach 160 because the league became more defensive and scoring went down, its like i'm talking to a wall. Prime Jagr and crosby would easily challenge 'LA Kings gretzky' for scoring races. Don't act like his numbers didn't drop as soon as he got traded.
Lemieux did score a goal per game pace when the league actually became defensive. There is no ifs and butts about it. Nobody in the modern era is going to challenge his 2.3 ppg from 1996.
By the way, what does lemieux playing with coffey have to do with the fact that rob brown was his winger instead of kurri? Yeah nothing, that's what i thought.
No change. You see the gap in the scoring between Selanne now, 40 years old, and Crosby. See the gap in scoring between Selanne, Prime and Gretzky after his peak. Please dont be delusional.
From 08-10 crosby was close to ovechkin, in 2007 and 2011 crosby blew him out of the water. It's close, but i think crosby is better offensively. If crosby's finished then i guess they would be about the same, but i think he will add more to his legacy while ovy will be eating cheeseburgers.
Nope, not close. OV´s 65 goals campaign still remains much higher than Crosby´s best. Even the pace he had last year is outproduced by OV.
Your right, alot of it is based on Sid's amazing 41 game stretch. However, he did produce 'art ross offense' in 2007 and was on pace for 125 I believe. The 2007 sid probably comes up short compared to 1989 and 1991 gretzky, but i think he outscores Messier in 1990 and could steal the art ross from gretzky in 1990. The 1995-2001 jagr vs 1989 or 1991 gretzky would be a fun scoring race to watch. Not saying jagr outscores him, but he would be a threat.
Sid was outscored by henrik in 2010 and datsyuk was just as good in 2009, your right, but sid also has great playoff runs in those years, something that was lacking in yzerman's peak, which he eventually made up for in 1998 and 2002.
My main purpose of bringing up gretzky's LA years is that they don't compare to Mario's amazing 1996 campaign and mario had plenty of mileage and injury in 1996, he wasnt some new kid on the block. 189 point pace in the 1990's is insane.
Sid has shown that he can be outscored by Sedins. That is enough for me. Do you honestly believe that Wayne in LA would lose a scoring race to one of the Sedins? I can not see it happening. If Sidney is in par with the league leaders today, he is not in par with Gretzky in LA. Perioid.
