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If Lemieux & Gretzky played the same # of games (the best comparison I've ever seen)

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Old
01-03-2012, 11:20 PM
  #101
wildthing202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Put a 20 year old Lemieux on the 81-82 Oilers, and see if he scores 212 points & 50 goals in 39 games....
Well considering an 18 year old Lemieux put up 282 points in 70 games I would say that he could of matched it.......

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01-04-2012, 12:09 AM
  #102
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There was some talk about whether Mario would've been able to sustain his pace of some of his monster stubby seasons for full seasons. I played a bit with Excel, took stats from HockeyReference and calculated his points per game from 1987-88 to 1992-93.

It's a bit of a halfassed effort because I didn't go up to 1995-96 (one of his ultimate best seasons) and because all the seasons effectively start from day 1 and hence the gaps make up the rest of the games when in reality some of the gaps are in the beginning and some in the middle of the season etc. Could've made it totally comprehensive but I'm a spreadsheet noob and this took too much time as it is, lol.

It's certainly not conclusive but in my opinion at least it doesn't endorse the fact that Mario would cool down much at all during the last ~20 games of the season.

FWIW I was in the Gretzky camp beforehand and some of the posts early in this thread pushed me even further to that direction.


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01-04-2012, 12:52 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well I never said 'peak ovechkin' was never in the same league as jagr and crosby, you guys are the ones that keep bringing him up. However, like you said, crosby has more playoff success, better two way game, and better ppg, i'm just stating facts. Sure ovechkin from 2008-2010 could be in the conversation, but he's too busy going through drivethroughs these days and ordering french fries. When he decides to return to his old form, then i'll mention him with jagr.
You still dont get the point. And i am stating facts also. Ovechkin has had higher peak offensively. Period. If you bring up prime Jagr, OV is closer talent offensively. But even Ovechkin has yet to shown the same dominance prime Jagr did. You could argue that Crosby is the better all-around player and he is more valuable to the team while not scoring. But the offensive peak is higher on OV. That is all i had to say and that was all i was saying. But you wont admit it?

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01-04-2012, 12:54 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
actually incorrect, but I'll let you believe it. I watched both for many years. Obviously living in Pittsburgh, I saw Lemieux more & no one will convince me there was a better player out there than Lemieux, including Gretzky.
At least you admit that you are blind to reality and close-minded in considering anything deeper than your youthful memories.

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01-04-2012, 01:21 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sid was right with ovechkin in 2006 and 2008-2010, ovechkin's ppg may have been a tiny bit better, but in 2009 and 2010 crosby was much better two way player. In 2007 and 2011, the gap is huge. Why are you ignoring that whenever sid plays, hes among the league leaders in ppg, while ovy was irrelevant in 2007 and 2011?
So what, he only beat OV, Thornton or either of the Sedin's once period and you are trying to suggest that Sid could steal an Art Ross from Gretzky...c'mon dude seriously.

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Yeah the playoff runs do matter, especially when they occur during your peak seasons, not at the end of your career. Why do u want to ignore that sid had great playoff runs to go along with his 2008-2010 seasons?
2010? As Devil already pointed out, Sid had a terrible run vs the Habs that year.

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Are you really trying to suggest yzerman is a better playoff performer than crosby? I'll have to strongly disagree with that, you place too much emphasis on career numbers. Crosby playoff ppg is much better and he plays in a low scoring era and hes 24.
When Sid has 3 rings on his fingers and a Conn Smythe in his case, THEN we'll talk about it

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Why are you ignoring that sid won a hart and art ross at age 19? Why is it so hard to believe that crosby cant challenge gretz from 89-91? Based on adjusted stats he comfortably outpoints messier or yzerman in 1990. You treat crosby like hes lindros.
I would never treat Sid like Lindros as Lindros, when he was healthy in his prime, was actually the more dominant player of the two.

Either way, I am not the one ignoring things. AGAIN, you have Sid outscoring Yzerman and Messier in '90 yet Sid can't even outpoint the Sedin's. You are simply cherry picking Sid's best season and plugging it in where you think it would do the best.
That's ridiculous. Hell, why don't you take Joe Thornton's best season and plug it into the same hole, I guess the all-time great Thronton would of beat Gretzky AND Crosby out for the Art Ross in '90
Like I said earlier, it's cherry picking and just doesn't hold water.

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01-04-2012, 04:29 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
So what, he only beat OV, Thornton or either of the Sedin's once period and you are trying to suggest that Sid could steal an Art Ross from Gretzky...c'mon dude seriously.



2010? As Devil already pointed out, Sid had a terrible run vs the Habs that year.



When Sid has 3 rings on his fingers and a Conn Smythe in his case, THEN we'll talk about it



I would never treat Sid like Lindros as Lindros, when he was healthy in his prime, was actually the more dominant player of the two.

Either way, I am not the one ignoring things. AGAIN, you have Sid outscoring Yzerman and Messier in '90 yet Sid can't even outpoint the Sedin's. You are simply cherry picking Sid's best season and plugging it in where you think it would do the best.
That's ridiculous. Hell, why don't you take Joe Thornton's best season and plug it into the same hole, I guess the all-time great Thronton would of beat Gretzky AND Crosby out for the Art Ross in '90
Like I said earlier, it's cherry picking and just doesn't hold water.
I think you have a clear bias against crosby and are not judging him objectively. I would take crosby's 3 best seasons over lindros's 3 best, sid wins thier polls anyways and this site loves lindros.

If crosby can hit 120 in 07, he couldnt hit 140+ in 1990? C'mon, scoring was only higher by 1.6 goals per game, no biggie. In 1991 and 1989 gretzky likely outpoints sid, but in 1990 i'll take sid.


Last edited by ushvinder: 01-04-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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01-04-2012, 04:31 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
You still dont get the point. And i am stating facts also. Ovechkin has had higher peak offensively. Period. If you bring up prime Jagr, OV is closer talent offensively. But even Ovechkin has yet to shown the same dominance prime Jagr did. You could argue that Crosby is the better all-around player and he is more valuable to the team while not scoring. But the offensive peak is higher on OV. That is all i had to say and that was all i was saying. But you wont admit it?
No you are misinterpreting the facts. From 2008 to 2010, ovechkin's 3 year peak, crosby's ppg was barely worse. In 2007 sid blew ovy out of the water and 2011 would be no different if he played the full season, actually your lucky sid got injured because we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Sid has overtaken ovy.

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01-04-2012, 05:12 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No you are misinterpreting the facts. From 2008 to 2010, ovechkin's 3 year peak, crosby's ppg was barely worse. In 2007 sid blew ovy out of the water and 2011 would be no different if he played the full season, actually your lucky sid got injured because we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Sid has overtaken ovy.
Sid was on PACE. Do you get that? OV has had higher pace in over 50 games played. So, your argument on the 2011 is not valid. OV peak is higher. And if the PPG is close that is fine. How about the GPG? Any way you look at this, OV still has peaked higher offensively. The facts are facts. Sid is great player. Probably will have better career if he recovers from the concussion. But still. Offensively OV has had higher peak. That is my point, was from the start from this conversation. There is no denying that OV has had better individual offensive year(s).

EDIT:
Actually, i started to wonder witch one has the better offensive year? I mean, my opinion is clear. And so is yours. Ill make a poll to the polls section. Well see what people on these boards think. (And no, i am not sure anymore my side will win. Although, i would be willing to bet a small amount of money on it.)

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01-04-2012, 09:00 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

And just for sh*ts and giggles, Gretzky's points totals after 7 years...1337 and I think most people know exactly what the significance of those exact numbers represents
Oh an THAT seals this debate LOL what a coincedence? I think not! The 1337 one

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01-04-2012, 09:39 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Well considering an 18 year old Lemieux put up 282 points in 70 games I would say that he could of matched it.......
I was talking about the NHL, not the QMJHL. But while we're at it, did Lemueux score 378 goals in 67 games as a 10 year old against players 4 years older?

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01-04-2012, 11:08 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I was talking about the NHL, not the QMJHL. But while we're at it, did Lemueux score 378 goals in 67 games as a 10 year old against players 4 years older?
Just a little correction, although Gretzky joined the team 4 years younger than the group, he was as old as everybody when he scored 378 goals in his last year as an atom.

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01-04-2012, 12:16 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
put Gretzky on the '81-'82 Pens & see if he gets 212 points....
Considering I don't have a time machine or the powers of God, I can't. I don't know how you managed to travel back in time and pull enough strings to make that happen either. Share your secret?

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01-04-2012, 01:04 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
It's still hard to complain because you have to assume that Lemieux's overall level of play took a hit due to the health issues that he always had. I doubt he had a lot of time at true "full health" where he could have been training or playing as he was constantly rehabbing from injury or dealing with it.

That said there's no question that Gretzky outdoes Mario statistically. Watching them both play though there's no question in my mind that Lemieux was the better individual talent.
I don't think Mario was even fully healthy when he came back.

I'm sure he was healthy enough to play but not 100%.

IMO, Lemieux was the better hockey player....

Lemieux was putting up epic numbers on a Pens team that had no real star other than Lemieux..

I would love to speculate what Gretzky would have done with the Pens and what Lemieux would have done with the Oilers as far as production.

I suppose one factor is overlooked that Lemieux proved himself on a team of nobodies, Gretzky did not and his point production went down a season or so after he was traded from Edmonton.

Once Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey etc went away so did the astronomical point totals, however Lemieux managed to turn guys like Rob Brown into 100 points players... I suppose Gretzky managed the same with players like Bernie Nicholls, however Bernie Nicholls was a talented and established player in his own right... He was certainly not a "Rob Brown" when he potted 70...

Of course then Gretzky started his decline and Lemieux started putting up Gretzky-like numbers, as far as PPG and GPG...

If I had to pick between the two , and if both could play 80/82/84 games a season for 18 years I would take Mario over Gretzky any day..

Reason being is that Mario, albeit facing cancer was always a consistent player even into his mid 30's and Gretzky was not... Gretzky played on the better teams and Lemieux did not...

Not to mention size and strength, Mario holds the edge on that clearly.

Of course that is only my opinion.

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01-04-2012, 01:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Reason being is that Mario, albeit facing cancer was always a consistent player even into his mid 30's and Gretzky was not...
Wait, what?

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01-04-2012, 01:16 PM
  #115
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How often did Lemieux double second place on his team in scoring?

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01-04-2012, 01:25 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I think you have a clear bias against crosby and are not judging him objectively. I would take crosby's 3 best seasons over lindros's 3 best, sid wins thier polls anyways and this site loves lindros.
I have no bias for or against Crosby. If anyone has the bias it's you FOR Crosby and I never said that Lindros had better seasons, I just said that, when healthy, Lindros was the more dominant player.

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If crosby can hit 120 in 07, he couldnt hit 140+ in 1990? C'mon, scoring was only higher by 1.6 goals per game, no biggie. In 1991 and 1989 gretzky likely outpoints sid, but in 1990 i'll take sid.
...and like I said, you're cherry picking. BY your logic, we could take Thornton's '06 season and plug it into the same hole and according to you, Joe would beat both Gretzky and Crosby.

For some reason you believe that because it's a possibility that Sid's best offensive season so far on paper might match up to one of Gretzky's weakest Art Ross wins. That that somehow means that Crosby deserves consideration to be in a conversation with Gretzky...I think not.
You also do realise that Gretzky only played 73 games in '90 right?
So that's 157 points raw over 80 games or 132 points adjusted over 80 games....how's Sid's chances of winning that '90 Art Ross now?

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01-04-2012, 01:34 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Wait, what?
Did Gretzky's skinny butt ever go through Chemo then put up 161 points in 70 games??

That was an amazing feat within itself........

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01-04-2012, 01:39 PM
  #118
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One of the things we need to factor in is the natural decline that occurs with age. Many "studies" assume Lemieux would have maintained a 1.88 PPG pace in the games he missed. However, we already know that that's not realistic; he played 127 games from age 35 to 39, and posted 153 points (1.20 PPG). In his last season at age 39, he had 22 points in 26 games (0.85 PPG).

This is actually very similar to Gretzky's final four seasons (1.11 PPG) and final season (0.88 PPG).

Lemieux played 572 fewer games than Gretzky, missing three complete seasons from 32 to 34, and then playing sporadically until retirement.

I'll be generous and assume he would have collected 2.0 PPG from 32 to 34 and played 80 games a season. That's 480 points in 240 games. Then he hits a decline- 1.20 PPG in his final four seasons. Again, let's say he averages 80 games, so 384 points in 320 games.

480 + 384 = 864. 864 + 1723 = 2587. Guess what? That still leaves Lemieux almost 300 points short. Yes, he missed time during his peak, but no player is healthy 100% of the time. There's no point in arguing that- otherwise, we have to spot Gretzky 60-some points for the time he missed in 1992-93, and around 40 for the 16 games he missed in 87-88. The gap remains around 300 points, which is rather substantial in NHL history- that's around the total that separates Messier (#2) from Coffey (#13) on the all-time list. It's not peanuts.

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01-04-2012, 01:43 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How often did Lemieux double second place on his team in scoring?
Who knows but that is not a feat...

I'd bet when Gretzky was playing in Edmonton he would spend 40+ minutes per game on the ice playing on double lines in a game.... I know he did, however at the time they didn't measure TOI..

Sather had him out there as much as possible... He easily played 35-40 minutes a game opposed to now when top forwards play 19-24 minutes...

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01-04-2012, 01:58 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
One of the things we need to factor in is the natural decline that occurs with age. Many "studies" assume Lemieux would have maintained a 1.88 PPG pace in the games he missed. However, we already know that that's not realistic; he played 127 games from age 35 to 39, and posted 153 points (1.20 PPG). In his last season at age 39, he had 22 points in 26 games (0.85 PPG).

This is actually very similar to Gretzky's final four seasons (1.11 PPG) and final season (0.88 PPG).

Lemieux played 572 fewer games than Gretzky, missing three complete seasons from 32 to 34, and then playing sporadically until retirement.

I'll be generous and assume he would have collected 2.0 PPG from 32 to 34 and played 80 games a season. That's 480 points in 240 games. Then he hits a decline- 1.20 PPG in his final four seasons. Again, let's say he averages 80 games, so 384 points in 320 games.

480 + 384 = 864. 864 + 1723 = 2587. Guess what? That still leaves Lemieux almost 300 points short. Yes, he missed time during his peak, but no player is healthy 100% of the time. There's no point in arguing that- otherwise, we have to spot Gretzky 60-some points for the time he missed in 1992-93, and around 40 for the 16 games he missed in 87-88. The gap remains around 300 points, which is rather substantial in NHL history- that's around the total that separates Messier (#2) from Coffey (#13) on the all-time list. It's not peanuts.
Lemieux also spent most of his career (or games played) on crappy Pens teams...

I'd bet the majority of his points came on first assists not secondary assists.... Oh and his goals of course..

I'd bet anything Lemieux scored more unassisted goals than Gretzky....

Don't mean to be rude, I'm just saying...

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01-04-2012, 02:01 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Who knows but that is not a feat...

I'd bet when Gretzky was playing in Edmonton he would spend 40+ minutes per game on the ice playing on double lines in a game.... I know he did, however at the time they didn't measure TOI..

Sather had him out there as much as possible... He easily played 35-40 minutes a game opposed to now when top forwards play 19-24 minutes...
Kinda blows up your argument about his numbers being dependent on his stacked team, though, doesn't it?

In those early years before Kurri/Coffey/Messier et al hit their stride, he was still putting up monstrous numbers even if he was being double shifted.

Mario was double shifted in the 80s and early 90s too.

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01-04-2012, 02:08 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Lemieux also spent most of his career (or games played) on crappy Pens teams...

I'd bet the majority of his points came on first assists not secondary assists.... Oh and his goals of course..

I'd bet anything Lemieux scored more unassisted goals than Gretzky....

Don't mean to be rude, I'm just saying...
A higher percentage of Gretzky's assists were primary than any other player in the entire time we have records (since 1952-53).

Source = http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=821020

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01-04-2012, 02:17 PM
  #123
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Kinda blows up your argument about his numbers being dependent on his stacked team, though, doesn't it?

In those early years before Kurri/Coffey/Messier et al hit their stride, he was still putting up monstrous numbers even if he was being double shifted.

Mario was double shifted in the 80s and early 90s too.
Gretzky had like 140 points in his NHL "rookie year" and that was when Messier and Coffey were drafted, followed by Kurri the next season (I believe)..

140 was not that "abnormal.."

I suppose if one were to adjust based on speculation 140 would be about 100 points in the present NHL..

That Oilers dynasty certainly grew together, and they all hit their primes at the same time.

Gretzky was not playing with bums - those kids could play hockey...

Historians can't have it both ways claiming that Gretzky was god and Glenn Anderson deserves to be in the HOF, Grant Fuhr to boot..

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01-04-2012, 02:29 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A higher percentage of Gretzky's assists were primary than any other player in the entire time we have records (since 1952-53).

Source = http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=821020
I wouldn't doubt that...

The 84-85 Oilers hold the record for most team goals in a season as well, and they led the pack in scoring for several years.

I suppose, a fair and accurate way to compare the two players would really be to look at team scoring....

I don't really feel like looking up the numbers, however I would have absolutely zero doubt that the Oilers scored more team goals than then Pens by a wide margin during the Pens dark years (1985-1990) and even during the high scoring 90's where they were good enough to be a contender and than the Oilers (1980-1988)..

Yet the Pens had Lemieux and the Oilers had Gretzky - both of which are neck and neck..

So which one was more valuable to their team???

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01-04-2012, 02:38 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Gretzky had like 140 points in his NHL "rookie year" and that was when Messier and Coffey were drafted, followed by Kurri the next season (I believe)..

140 was not that "abnormal.."

I suppose if one were to adjust based on speculation 140 would be about 100 points in the present NHL..

That Oilers dynasty certainly grew together, and they all hit their primes at the same time.

Gretzky was not playing with bums - those kids could play hockey...

Historians can't have it both ways claiming that Gretzky was god and Glenn Anderson deserves to be in the HOF, Grant Fuhr to boot..
Those players had about as much impact of Gretzky's early stats as Jagr did on Lemieux's early 90's seasons, or virtually none. Now, one could argue that Gretzky scored so highly early on because teams did not know who they were dealing with and attempted to defend him as they would a normal player. I wouldn't agree with this line of thinking, given Gretzky's continued dominance of the scoring race for a decade, but I'd be more willing to listen to it than the tired "Wayne only played with great players, Mario always had crap," argument. Its been done to death and refuted just as often.

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