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Better Franchise: Philadelphia Flyers vs Pittsburgh Penguins

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Old
12-29-2011, 11:04 PM
  #1
Stephen
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Better Franchise: Philadelphia Flyers vs Pittsburgh Penguins

All things considered, which of these two Pennsylvanian Expansion Six teams has been the better franchise, in your opinion? Basically, the Flyers have been largely a consistent contender since their inception, with a few lean years scattered here and there, and have been a pillar of stability in the league while the Pittsburgh Penguins have had some extremely lean years, faced extinction on two occasions, but have more Stanley Cup titles and an undoubtedly more illustrious alumni.

Some basic comparisons:

All time regular season record up till the beginning of this season, the Pittsburgh Penguins are 1456-1505-463 while the Philadelphia Flyers are 1709-1176-539.

The Philadelphia Flyers have 2 Stanley Cups
The Pittsburgh Penguins have 3 Stanley Cups
Both have won back to back championships

The Flyers have lost in the finals 5 times
The Penguins have lost in the finals once

The Flyers have 18 100 point seasons
The Penguins have 8 100 point seasons

The best Flyers regular season team had 118 points
The best Penguins regular season team had 119 points

In terms of recognizable personnel, you basically have names like Clarke, Lindros, Parent, Lindbergh, Leach, Tocchet, Hextall, Leclair, Desjardins, MacLeish, Barber, Schultz, Roenick, Recchi, Mark Howe, Kerr, Propp, Gagne, Primeau, Brind'Amour, etc. for the Philadelphia Flyers against Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Barrasso, Coffey, Stevens, Murphy, Kovalev, etc.

So basically, does it come down to long term franchise stability of the Flyers and consistent contender status of the Flyers or the high highs and low lows and star studded roster of the Penguins?

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12-30-2011, 12:37 AM
  #2
Big Phil
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Hard to say, probably the Flyers overall, just for the reason that they started being a good team in the early 1970s and were good all the way up until the late 1980s. Then a 5 year break, and then good again for 10 years. And pretty much a threat post lockout.

The Pens were so-so at best in the 1970s. Then awful parts of the 1980s and didn't start getting good until 1989. Then in the early 2000s they falter again up until about 2007. So there has been a lot more down time with that franchise.

On the flip side you have to give the Penguins the edge in peak value. No one on the Flyers is as good as Mario or Jagr, not even Clarke. Sid and Malkin we'll have to see how that pans out. And if I were picking who would win between the early 1990s Pens and the mid 1970s Flyers I pick the Pens. But overall the Flyers have been the better franchise since 1967. It might be a little funny that the Flyers have made it to 6 finals since 1975 and lost all of them but I guess you can say at least they made it

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12-30-2011, 12:41 AM
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Philadelphia has been consistently one of the strongest franchises since they came into the NHL. Pittsburgh has been basically mediocre outside of having the fortune to have high draft picks in the best situations. Pittsburgh's one additional Stanley Cup does not make up for the consistency of Philadelphia.

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12-30-2011, 02:40 AM
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Great minds think alike, I made this thread too, Flyers IMO.

EDIT:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1014965

Penguins won by a landslide in case anyones wondering.

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12-30-2011, 03:37 AM
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Teeder9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hard to say, probably the Flyers overall, just for the reason that they started being a good team in the early 1970s and were good all the way up until the late 1980s. Then a 5 year break, and then good again for 10 years. And pretty much a threat post lockout.

The Pens were so-so at best in the 1970s. Then awful parts of the 1980s and didn't start getting good until 1989. Then in the early 2000s they falter again up until about 2007. So there has been a lot more down time with that franchise.

On the flip side you have to give the Penguins the edge in peak value. No one on the Flyers is as good as Mario or Jagr, not even Clarke. Sid and Malkin we'll have to see how that pans out. And if I were picking who would win between the early 1990s Pens and the mid 1970s Flyers I pick the Pens. But overall the Flyers have been the better franchise since 1967. It might be a little funny that the Flyers have made it to 6 finals since 1975 and lost all of them but I guess you can say at least they made it
It would be an interesting series. I'm not sure I would choose the Pens though. Pure offense against pure defense and Parent to boot? Tough series regardless.

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Old
12-30-2011, 04:28 AM
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archangel archangel
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how many top 10 draft picks have the flyers had (there own picks and not ones traded for) or how many top 3 picks where naturally the flyers

for me it is the flyers because they try to win all the times and don't suck i up to rebuild every 20 years and get a so many top 5 picks

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Old
12-30-2011, 04:43 AM
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Teeder9
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Originally Posted by richard armus View Post
how many top 10 draft picks have the flyers had (there own picks and not ones traded for) or how many top 3 picks where naturally the flyers

for me it is the flyers because they try to win all the times and don't suck i up to rebuild every 20 years and get a so many top 5 picks
In the Pens defense, they didn't suck to get Lemieux. They sucked in spite of getting him, regardless of some stories that came out.

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12-30-2011, 07:44 AM
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A little harsh maybe, but building your success by getting to chose four franchise-players, all arguable what you would define generational talent, high in the draft (Lemieux, Jagr, Malkin & Crosby) along with some top-notch talent (e.g. Staal, Fleury & Simpson) doesn´t impress me as much as the team that´s almost always a contender, built from smart trades, late drafting and signings. A bit of Detroit-light (not playing style...). Sure, the Flyers had Lindros (who, when healthy can be placed amongst Jagr, Malkin & Crosby...) - but they got him in a complete different way.

The Penguins have also made some good choices with trades and signings - they have capitalized on there fortune building great teams to surround their franchise players. But I´m more impressed with the Flyers, even with their lack of winning the Stanley Cup since the mid 70´s. They´ve never been in the cellar as long or deep as the Penguins. If Pittsburgh would have been able to build a greater dynasty in the 90´s or achive that now that could/would maybe change my mind.

More successfull is a completley different question. Would probably vote Penguins. But better franchise: Flyers.


Last edited by feffan: 12-30-2011 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Added the last sentence...
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Old
12-30-2011, 09:31 AM
  #9
tony d
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The Philadelphia Flyers. They have a record of being a consistent team. Pittsburgh's had a decent history but there's been more poor seasons and the threat of relocation.

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12-30-2011, 09:38 AM
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Flyers.

Also a lot better market, and fans.

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12-30-2011, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Great minds think alike, I made this thread too, Flyers IMO.

EDIT:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1014965

Penguins won by a landslide in case anyones wondering.
That is interesting considering that, as much as it pains me to say so, the Flyers have easily been the better franchise over their existence.

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12-30-2011, 10:09 AM
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feffan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Great minds think alike, I made this thread too, Flyers IMO.

EDIT:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1014965

Penguins won by a landslide in case anyones wondering.
Some interesting facts from that thread (especially in the nik jr post...), this one impressed me: Flyers have the 2nd (regular season?) highest winning % all-time, only behind the Habs.

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Old
12-30-2011, 10:24 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feffan View Post
A little harsh maybe, but building your success by getting to chose four franchise-players, all arguable what you would define generational talent, high in the draft (Lemieux, Jagr, Malkin & Crosby) along with some top-notch talent (e.g. Staal, Fleury & Simpson) doesn´t impress me as much as the team that´s almost always a contender, built from smart trades, late drafting and signings. A bit of Detroit-light (not playing style...). Sure, the Flyers had Lindros (who, when healthy can be placed amongst Jagr, Malkin & Crosby...) - but they got him in a complete different way.

The Penguins have also made some good choices with trades and signings - they have capitalized on there fortune building great teams to surround their franchise players. But I´m more impressed with the Flyers, even with their lack of winning the Stanley Cup since the mid 70´s. They´ve never been in the cellar as long or deep as the Penguins. If Pittsburgh would have been able to build a greater dynasty in the 90´s or achive that now that could/would maybe change my mind.

More successfull is a completley different question. Would probably vote Penguins. But better franchise: Flyers.
You can't really bring up Jagr as part of this discussion without talking about the Flyers horrific decision to draft Mike Ricci instead of him. The Penguins one extra championship doesn't make up for the long periods of irrelevance, and the fact that they were discussed as potentially being moved out of Pittsburgh makes it hard for me to give them the nod over any of the big american franchises, let alone one with as much consistent (albeit regular season) success and support.

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Old
12-30-2011, 10:59 AM
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Philadelphia has been among the most consistent since the expansion era. When they do start to decline they always seem to turn things around fast.
Their drafting is very good. imo they are one of the most underrated franchises.

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12-30-2011, 12:15 PM
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Since both teams entered the league through last season, Philly is +451 and Pittsburgh is -129 in the wins losses department. One extra Cup due to being terrible and getting high draft picks does not make up for that. The Flyers have also at least been to the Cup Final another six times besides their two wins. That counts for something.

Philly and it's no contest.

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12-30-2011, 12:26 PM
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Pens. Better overall talent, more titles, more coloful history & simply Flyers suck....thanks...

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12-30-2011, 12:28 PM
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Flyers. Posters above me pretty'much sum the facts.

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12-30-2011, 12:58 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Easily the Flyers. Pretty much a model franchise, they've been a perenial contender for the better part of 40 years. Outside of the early 90's and Crosby/Malkin era, Pittsburgh has been mediocre at the best of times, and completely awful at the worst of times.

Philly has made 8 finals and 16 semi-finals over the past 38 seasons, which dwarfs every other non-dynasty. The one extra Cup is pretty much Pittsburgh's only argument. The Flyers have had the misfortune of running into exceptionally strong teams in those six finals losses as well. Dynasty Habs, Isles, and Oilers x2. Near-dynasty Red Wings of the late 90's, and a 2010 Blackhawks that for my money is the best single-season team of the past decade. No patsies like the '91 North Stars in that group.

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12-30-2011, 01:04 PM
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Easily the Flyers. Pretty much a model franchise, they've been a perenial contender for the better part of 40 years. Outside of the early 90's and Crosby/Malkin era, Pittsburgh has been mediocre at the best of times, and completely awful at the worst of times.

Philly has made 8 finals and 16 semi-finals over the past 38 seasons, which dwarfs every other non-dynasty. The one extra Cup is pretty much Pittsburgh's only argument. The Flyers have had the misfortune of running into exceptionally strong teams in those six finals losses as well. Dynasty Habs, Isles, and Oilers x2. Near-dynasty Red Wings of the late 90's, and a 2010 Blackhawks that for my money is the best single-season team of the past decade. No patsies like the '91 North Stars in that group.

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Old
12-30-2011, 01:36 PM
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it's the Flyers. the Penguins have one more stanley cup, but as much as people want to deny it, that is a direct result of being terrible for long periods of time and getting lucky with high draft picks. How many times have the Flyers had a top 5 draft pick (that was their own) compared to how many times the Penguins have had a top 5 draft pick?

the Flyers have the 2nd all time best win % to the canadiens, and while they have lost in the Finals a number of times since they last won a cup in 1975, you cannot fault them for only having won 2 cups. the fact is that they've competed enough to be in the Finals all those times without having to sit at the bottom of the standings, stock pile high draft picks, and risk having to relocate the team on multiple occasions. They did it through developing the draft picks they had and signing the players they needed to sign to remain competitive. You cannot say the same for the Penguins.

While the Pens are the leagues golden team at this moment in time, while the Flyers are probably considered the 'heel' of the NHL, and often portrayed as the dirty villains, they are still a model franchise and a symbol of consistency in the the NHL and pro sports.

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12-30-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
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You can't really bring up Jagr as part of this discussion without talking about the Flyers horrific decision to draft Mike Ricci instead of him. The Penguins one extra championship doesn't make up for the long periods of irrelevance, and the fact that they were discussed as potentially being moved out of Pittsburgh makes it hard for me to give them the nod over any of the big american franchises, let alone one with as much consistent (albeit regular season) success and support.
True. Not drafting Jagr was a big mistake by four teams, Flyers being one. As you say, not getting that franchise player is more a bad decision by the Flyers than a good one of the Penguins. Even if understandable, giving not knowing when Jagr would cross the pond (if I remember correctley?).
Funny thing: As it is, out of that top five only Nolan never played for the Flyers. He´s style would have fit. Sign him! And you can add Hatcher at eight... There´s also a story about Petr Nedved from that draft, that when JJ got picked (three spots laterhe chuckled pointed and said "that guy is better than me...". Don´t know how much truth it holds...

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12-30-2011, 01:41 PM
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The Flyers are a great hockey franchise , I can't say the same about the Penguins.They had great players but let's face it , you move their 1st overall picks 5 years ahead or behind ( getting normal 1st overall ) and they're not even in Pittsburgh so it's hard to put them ahead of a franchise like Philadelphia who is rock solid in every department.

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12-30-2011, 02:47 PM
  #23
Big Phil
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It would be an interesting series. I'm not sure I would choose the Pens though. Pure offense against pure defense and Parent to boot? Tough series regardless.
I have to wonder if the Flyers defense could handle the Pens offense. They could throw back their own offense too (Clarke, Barber, MacLeish, Leach) but I don't think it makes up for Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Mullen, Recchi/Tocchet, Stevens, Murphy, Coffey. In net you definitely give the edge to Parent over Barrasso, but when Barrasso was "on" he was a stud himself.

I just wouldn't sleep well at night betting against Mario, somehow you get the feeling he'd find a way to win. Then again Orr and Espo couldn't in 1974...............

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12-30-2011, 07:06 PM
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Flyers. Penguins were going to move. Have greatly improved though, but nothing near the best expansion franchise in league history.

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12-30-2011, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
You can't really bring up Jagr as part of this discussion without talking about the Flyers horrific decision to draft Mike Ricci instead of him. The Penguins one extra championship doesn't make up for the long periods of irrelevance, and the fact that they were discussed as potentially being moved out of Pittsburgh makes it hard for me to give them the nod over any of the big american franchises, let alone one with as much consistent (albeit regular season) success and support.
You can't blame that on the Flyers, leading up to the 1990 draft Ricci was considered the conensus #1 by Central Scouting going into the draft. The amount of European players that had come into the league at that time was few and far between and the Flyers were looking for players to make an impact right away. Central Scoutings Top 10 Skaters going into the draft was.

1. Ricci
2. Nolan
3. Primeau
4. Nedved
5. Scissons
6. Sydor
7. Slaney
8. Hughes
9. Dykhuis
10. Hatcher

The Flyers were happy to have Ricci fall into their laps at #3 he was as sure of a thing as you could get. Hindsight is 20/20

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