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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Spreadsheet of cities' ability to support professional sports

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Old
01-04-2012, 08:50 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by dronald View Post
Im on my BB, but if you google it you can find stunning pictures of what was planned.

The post is assuming Balsillie is out, and he most certainly is.
OT but you still use a BB??? Try out an iPhone. Siri is incredibly useful once one learns how to use it.

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01-04-2012, 09:04 PM
  #77
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OT but you still use a BB??? Try out an iPhone. Siri is incredibly useful once one learns how to use it.
They offered me a free Blackberry and wanted my money for an Iphone when I re-signed with Rogers. If they continue to offer me free Blackberrys I'll probably keep signing.

But yeah, Ide take an Iphone over a BB.

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01-04-2012, 09:08 PM
  #78
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What I don't like about the spreadsheet is that it ignores a ton of sports.

Aren't college football/basketball in the States super popular? Like comparable to the NBA/NFL popular?

The CFL is a big ticket item in Western Canada. For example, the Saskatchewan Roughriders are worth $35m. In comparison the Islanders are worth $50m.

What about lacrosse? Theatre? Opera? Ballet?

There's more to entertainment than 5 leagues.

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01-05-2012, 02:03 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
Are you Bettman? Because your arguments here are the same idiotic ones that he used to cram all the southern disasters down the NHL's throat the past 15 years.

As has already been pointed out, those teams have fans because the tickets are dirt cheap. There's no problem selling tickets to the freak show on ice that hockey is to 99% of the population in a place like Houston or Atlanta. But very few will pay major league prices for NHL hockey in markets like that, simply because they don't view hockey as major league.

I don't know how many times this needs to be hammered home. This comes up here all the time, along with expansion, with US deep thinkers advocating this crap as some kind of solution for the league's many ills.

Been there, done that. Have you not been paying attention to what the NHL has been doing unsuccessfully for the past 20 years?
Except for the fact that they're not "idiotic." It's simple economics.

5 of the 10 "non-traditional" markets have been in the TOP 10 IN REVENUE in the last six years.
A sixth has been in the top half of the league in revenue half of that time (albeit in 14th and 15th)

And the other four? Three are teams that have average ticket prices* higher than Detroit ($46.60)! Columbus ($47.66), Nashville ($48.36), Florida ($48.76), and of course, Phoenix.

(*-these are 2009-10 numbers, couldn't find more recent ones).

The teams with the cheaper ticket prices MADE MORE REVENUE by selling more tickets (and concessions). I think that shows the Southern Expansion concept of "big US cities where shear population can off-set the lower percentage of hockey fans" is pretty much SPOT ON FACT, and not (what did you call it? Idiot arguments about southern disasters?

The "disasters" are the teams that TRIED IT YOUR WAY: Setting league-average prices and therefore failed to build loyal support.

There's a reason drug dealers let first-time users try it for free you know. It's led to the success of HALF of the non-traditional markets.

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01-05-2012, 08:40 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
Are you Bettman? Because your arguments here are the same idiotic ones that he used to cram all the southern disasters down the NHL's throat the past 15 years.
Let's get this right...

Mr. Bettman has been the commissioner since 1 February 1993. At that time, the North Stars were about to move to Dallas (approval was but less than two months later), the NHL already had plans to become a 28-team circuit by decade's end, and the fight for a better collective bargaining agreement took hold. By the end of 2000, Mr. Bettman oversaw the addition of franchises in Atlanta, Columbus, Nashville and St. Paul, while also overseeing the franchise shifts from Quebec, Winnipeg and Hartford.

It appears there are too many people believing that Mr. Bettman has some kind of veto power over any franchise move, or that Mr. Bettman can act alone on moving a franchise. The plans for "southern disasters" were in place before Mr. Bettman took over, as teams were granted in Florida, Tampa Bay and Anaheim before Mr. Bettman took office.
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
As has already been pointed out, those teams have fans because the tickets are dirt cheap. There's no problem selling tickets to the freak show on ice that hockey is to 99% of the population in a place like Houston or Atlanta. But very few will pay major league prices for NHL hockey in markets like that, simply because they don't view hockey as major league.
There is another thread discussing that in 2007-2008, the Atlanta Thrashers were making more in ticket revenue than either Washington or Chicago.
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
I don't know how many times this needs to be hammered home. This comes up here all the time, along with expansion, with US deep thinkers advocating this crap as some kind of solution for the league's many ills.
Yet for some reason the Thrashers' revenues were outpacing the Blackhawks and Capitals until ASG strangled the life out of the Thrashers.
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
Been there, done that. Have you not been paying attention to what the NHL has been doing unsuccessfully for the past 20 years?
I have.

Today's NHL requires sellouts at arenas. As the Canadian teams are receiving large revenues for their sellouts, any place that is further south has to keep up with the Jones' just to compete as all franchises have pretty much the same player expense. Winnipeg Jets v 1.0 was lucky to be charging $20 per game and still didn't sell out. Winnipeg Jets v 2.0 has the highest average ticket price in the League outside of Montreal and Toronto and will sell out for years.

What's changed over 20 years is in places that could be considered "traditional", most fans have decided to spend premium money to support their team. Minnesota and Winnipeg are back in the League after an absence, with fans paying much higher ticket prices than they used to. I can only assume it will be the same when Quebec gets their team.

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01-05-2012, 10:09 AM
  #81
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Is there any strong reason why the NHL would need to Expand by two teams at once? With two Divisions/Conferences having only 7 teams, it could easily be done to add only 1 team first and a 2nd a bit later. I'm thinking this in the case it might be decided that Seattle wouldn't be arena-viable in time for a relocated Coyotes team, but the League might want to latch onto to Seattle as soon as it is feasible in some way... which could possibly then mean a relocation to Quebec City, and then soon after an Expansion to Seattle. Though realistically, I believe Seattle will get a team first.

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01-05-2012, 06:10 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Is there any strong reason why the NHL would need to Expand by two teams at once? With two Divisions/Conferences having only 7 teams, it could easily be done to add only 1 team first and a 2nd a bit later. I'm thinking this in the case it might be decided that Seattle wouldn't be arena-viable in time for a relocated Coyotes team, but the League might want to latch onto to Seattle as soon as it is feasible in some way... which could possibly then mean a relocation to Quebec City, and then soon after an Expansion to Seattle. Though realistically, I believe Seattle will get a team first.
There's no need for multiple-expansion; 1 at a time is OK. Actually, I question whether expansion is necessary at all. Phoenix will most likely be moving this summer. Unless Wang pulls a rabbit out of a hat, the Islanders will need to move in the summer of 2015. So we have Quebec and Seattle spoken for. How is the city purchase of the Columbus arena going? If that falls through, contraction may be staring Columbus in the face. If I were Bettman, my main concern be lining up Seattle, KC, Houston, whomever, as relocation sites in order to avoid contraction.

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01-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Is there any strong reason why the NHL would need to Expand by two teams at once? With two Divisions/Conferences having only 7 teams, it could easily be done to add only 1 team first and a 2nd a bit later. I'm thinking this in the case it might be decided that Seattle wouldn't be arena-viable in time for a relocated Coyotes team, but the League might want to latch onto to Seattle as soon as it is feasible in some way... which could possibly then mean a relocation to Quebec City, and then soon after an Expansion to Seattle. Though realistically, I believe Seattle will get a team first.
Pretty much the same reason why MLB had uneven leagues for so long, 14 in the American and 16 in the National, so as to guarantee that everyone could play on important days. Same logic would be that the NHL would be more interested in expanding by two at once instead of expanding by one then a few years later expanding by another.

Granted, that's just the thought process, though the NHL certainly hasn't been afraid of doing one team expansions in the past.

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01-05-2012, 06:36 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by AndersUlfBobby View Post
Glad to see that "Winnepeg" ranks 25 places lower than metro San Juan, Puerto Rico area. Makes sense to me.
Actually it does if you know and understand economics and business. While it maybe small--the revenue generated by that small place would boggle the mind

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01-05-2012, 06:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
What I don't like about the spreadsheet is that it ignores a ton of sports.

Aren't college football/basketball in the States super popular? Like comparable to the NBA/NFL popular?

The CFL is a big ticket item in Western Canada. For example, the Saskatchewan Roughriders are worth $35m. In comparison the Islanders are worth $50m.

What about lacrosse? Theatre? Opera? Ballet?

There's more to entertainment than 5 leagues.
Where did you get the roughies being worth 35mill?

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01-05-2012, 06:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Pretty much the same reason why MLB had uneven leagues for so long, 14 in the American and 16 in the National, so as to guarantee that everyone could play on important days.
Except that there is a fundamental difference between the 162-game, play 3 or 4 game series with few off days, MLB schedule and the 82 game NHL one - virtually every weekend and most mid-week days are "important" (ie all 30 teams play) in MLB, but there are few, if any, days in the NHL schedule when all 30 teams play.

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01-05-2012, 07:29 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
mega spread sheet fail

how do people keep spelling WinnIpeg wrong?
sure, it's spelled Whineypeg

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01-05-2012, 07:32 PM
  #88
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Where did you get the roughies being worth 35mill?

http://forum.football.co.uk/about440981.html

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01-05-2012, 07:57 PM
  #89
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sure, it's spelled Whineypeg
< edited because children read this thread>

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01-06-2012, 10:30 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
This.

Indy's college hoops first, Colts second, Indianapolis 500 third, high school hoops fourth, and everything somewhere fifth and below. Pacers were never nearly as popular as other teams even though Indiana is a basketball hotbed, for the same reasons why college hoops is more popular in North Carolina than the Bobcats and collegiate and high school hockey are more popular in Minnesota than the Wild.
What are those reasons? I've never understood these regions where a sport is popular but the attitude towards the top level (major pro league) ranges between disinterest and moral disgust. I honestly think that they don't like the game so much as they like the institution (college or school) and sports are the most visible representation of that institution.

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01-06-2012, 10:31 PM
  #91
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Aren't college football/basketball in the States super popular? Like comparable to the NBA/NFL popular?
More so in some places. I don't know why. I get the sense that they can't bring themselves to root for a corporation (see above post).

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01-07-2012, 12:15 PM
  #92
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I think college sports are like English football teams where the attachments to themare stronger then most pro teams because how stable and how much history there is. These college teams never move towns but only conferences whether to better divisions or worse ones.

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01-07-2012, 11:43 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
What are those reasons? I've never understood these regions where a sport is popular but the attitude towards the top level (major pro league) ranges between disinterest and moral disgust. I honestly think that they don't like the game so much as they like the institution (college or school) and sports are the most visible representation of that institution.
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
More so in some places. I don't know why. I get the sense that they can't bring themselves to root for a corporation (see above post).
Simple, really. NCAA basketball is more defense orientated and has more of an emphasis on team play, whereas NBA basketball is more offense oriented, is more about the individual (especially in the media coverage of it), and has pretty damn uneven standards for what is and isn't a penalty depending on who is committing it. When there are such obvious differences between the two games, it's not at all unreasonable to find out that a lot of people prefer one or the other, even if one's professional and has an obviously higher level of talent.

And the points I've brought up about the NBA has actually turned a lot of people off from the professional game, and combo that with huge segments of the country where collegiate hoops is the only basketball in town and you have an easy explanation for why huge parts of the U.S. prefer NCAA over the NBA.

Same can be said, though not as much the individual element, about folks that prefer the college football over the pro game (i.e. - the entire South). Only difference is that the NFL is unarguably more popular than the collegiate game nationwide whereas you actually could make an argument that more people prefer college hoops over the NBA, especially when you compare their respective postseasons.

I swear, I can't even count the number of times where I've tried to watch an NBA game and just given up because I got sick of seeing so many damn obvious traveling calls missed and blatantly uneven officiating. Or just gotten bored at shoddy defense. I can watch college hoops just about any time, any place, and am freaking glued to my TV during March Madness, but you'd have to pay me to watch an NBA game on TV.

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01-08-2012, 01:01 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
What are those reasons? I've never understood these regions where a sport is popular but the attitude towards the top level (major pro league) ranges between disinterest and moral disgust. I honestly think that they don't like the game so much as they like the institution (college or school) and sports are the most visible representation of that institution.
That's exactly it. Don't forget that in several regions, the various college games existed long before a pro option did. The first pro sports team of any type located anywhere in the American South was the Atlanta Braves in 1966. As a result, most football fans or basketball fans in those areas grew up as fans of the nearest high-level college.

The interesting comparison is with baseball. College baseball, while popular in that region, is not anywhere near as popular as minor league baseball. Minor league baseball has existed all across the region going back over 100 years, and thus has always had a good local following.

In the case of areas where a college is dominant, like in Columbus with Ohio State, it's because of that long-standing tradition (annoying as hell though it may be) that the popularity remains even through lean years. But I'll also point out that OSU basketball is only popular during good years, and anything outside of football and basketball isn't followed at all.

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01-09-2012, 08:06 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
What are those reasons? I've never understood these regions where a sport is popular but the attitude towards the top level (major pro league) ranges between disinterest and moral disgust. I honestly think that they don't like the game so much as they like the institution (college or school) and sports are the most visible representation of that institution.
If I can chip in, although the thread is now officially completely OT.. cheering for an institution is part of it, but I think a big reason for the popularity of college hoops is the tournament structure of March Madness itself. a lot of people (like me) completely disregard the NBA but follow March Madness closely because of the storylines (root for the underdog) and the sudden death nature of the whole tournament (every game is game 7). So you're probably right, it's not so much the sport as the event.

The popularity of the event/competition (structure) as opposed to the sport has also been brought up as one of the reasons for the popularity of football -- that "only 16 games in a season" thing.

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01-10-2012, 02:05 AM
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That's exactly it. Don't forget that in several regions, the various college games existed long before a pro option did. The first pro sports team of any type located anywhere in the American South was the Atlanta Braves in 1966. As a result, most football fans or basketball fans in those areas grew up as fans of the nearest high-level college.

The interesting comparison is with baseball. College baseball, while popular in that region, is not anywhere near as popular as minor league baseball. Minor league baseball has existed all across the region going back over 100 years, and thus has always had a good local following.

In the case of areas where a college is dominant, like in Columbus with Ohio State, it's because of that long-standing tradition (annoying as hell though it may be) that the popularity remains even through lean years. But I'll also point out that OSU basketball is only popular during good years, and anything outside of football and basketball isn't followed at all.
You probably could have picked someone other than Ohio State. Dayton is a great example. How many of you consider Dayton a "top college program"? Their "drop" in attendance ranking over the last decade is based solely on bigger venues opening up. They average 13,409 when they're really good, and about 13,000 when they're not good. One year, they were 24th in attendance (behind 23 teams with bigger arenas) when they were 5-25. They put the "Opening Round" games and the "First Four" games in Dayton because no other city would put 8,000 people into an arena for games like Alcorn State vs Siena; Winthrop vs Northwestern St, Monmouth vs Florida A&M, etc.


There's a deeper connection with college sports. The players are student-athletes and not paid assets. I lived in New Orleans, where they loved Chris Paul and Reggie Bush. Now those guys are in different cities because of the business side.

College athletes don't leave because of contract disputes. They're on campus, in classes, with the other students. Paul's mail never accidentally showed up in my mailbox in New Orleans, but our point guard's mail did in college. I had a class with the power forward and another with the small forward. When I worked at Tulane, I used the weight room with future Chicago Bear Matt Forte.

They picked the school just like you did. My Islanders are fighting for a new building and could move. But I know my alma mater is never moving.

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If I can chip in, although the thread is now officially completely OT.. cheering for an institution is part of it, but I think a big reason for the popularity of college hoops is the tournament structure of March Madness itself. a lot of people (like me) completely disregard the NBA but follow March Madness closely because of the storylines (root for the underdog) and the sudden death nature of the whole tournament (every game is game 7). So you're probably right, it's not so much the sport as the event.

The popularity of the event/competition (structure) as opposed to the sport has also been brought up as one of the reasons for the popularity of football -- that "only 16 games in a season" thing.
That's a massive part of it. Another is the atmosphere.

At pro events, there's crowd noise is pumped in, click-effects going on during play, and the people in the front row are rich dudes with dignity.

In college, even the big money programs with rich dudes not embarrassing themselves in the high priced seats... have student-sections on the floor with people acting rabid and crazy.

At my alma mater, the fans prided themselves on being loud, irritating to the visiting team, and lifting our team. (We were listed by Jay Bilas as one of the top five hostile homes, along with Duke, Michigan State, Kansas and Arizona).

It wasn't enough to cheer for our team, we wanted to influence the game. Pro crowds don't do that.

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01-10-2012, 04:23 AM
  #97
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The players are student-athletes and not paid assets.
In the SEC? Yeah right.

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01-10-2012, 07:31 AM
  #98
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you do you realize that is a blog and not a legit source

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01-11-2012, 07:58 PM
  #99
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Give Seattle the Bucks & Milwaukee the NHL team. I think WI will support a NHL team far more than a NBA team. Bradley Center built for hockey.

Tell Hawks owners to stuff it.


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01-12-2012, 05:20 PM
  #100
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OT but you still use a BB??? Try out an iPhone. Siri is incredibly useful once one learns how to use it.
He lives in Canada, which has been lagging anywhere from 2-5 years behind the US and the rest of the world when it comes to wireless and internet connectivity. This is because the government regulating body for these industries (the CRTC) has allowed a couple of dominant players to create an oligopoly, stifling competition and consumer choice. I've lived in the US the past five years so it's been kind of disappointing to see that the technology gap between these countries has only been increasing, and more and more Canadian tech professionals are choosing to move to the US because that's where the best opportunities and innovation are.

Sorry for the derail. On the other hand, these large Canadian media/internet/wireless carrier oligopolists (Bell & Rogers) make for very deep pocketed owners of NHL teams, which synergize well with their media empires.

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