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Expansion Franchises Better than O6...

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Old
12-31-2011, 02:57 PM
  #1
RabbinsDuck
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Expansion Franchises Better than O6...

Do you think any of the expansion teams, as an overall franchise, can be viewed as better than any Original 6 franchises?

Montreal
Detroit
Toronto
Boston

Philadelphia
Chicago
Rangers
Edmonton
Islanders
Pittsburgh
New Jersey
Dallas
Colorado
St. Louis

... ranking franchises off the top of my head.

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12-31-2011, 03:43 PM
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All I know is Chicago is the worst original 6 team of all time.

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12-31-2011, 03:59 PM
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A case can be made against Chicago, and the Rangers. That's about it imo.
Philadelphia is really the only team i could see as being placed above them.


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12-31-2011, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Do you think any of the expansion teams, as an overall franchise, can be viewed as better than any Original 6 franchises?

Montreal
Detroit
Toronto
Boston

Philadelphia
Chicago
Rangers
Edmonton
Islanders
Pittsburgh
New Jersey
Dallas
Colorado
St. Louis

... ranking franchises off the top of my head.
I'm just curious... Hasn't Toronto been quite not-so-good during the last 40 or so years? Could one make a case that Edmonton should be ranked above them, considering Edmonton was a dynasty? If winning Stanley Cup is the ultimate thing, Edmonton's wins during the last 30 years, in a 21 team league, might be competible with Toronto's all-time record (where they had their best time when there were fewer teams in the league). Perhaps Islanders too could be argued better?

If I would rank, I would place Edmonton and Islanders ahead of Toronto. Notice that I'm an outsider, and if I seem disrespectful regarding Toronto, longevity or history it's not intentional.

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12-31-2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
I'm just curious... Hasn't Toronto been quite not-so-good during the last 40 or so years? Could one make a case that Edmonton should be ranked above them, considering Edmonton was a dynasty? If winning Stanley Cup is the ultimate thing, Edmonton's wins during the last 30 years, in a 21 team league, might be competible with Toronto's all-time record (where they had their best time when there were fewer teams in the league). Perhaps Islanders too could be argued better?

If I would rank, I would place Edmonton and Islanders ahead of Toronto. Notice that I'm an outsider, and if I seem disrespectful regarding Toronto, longevity or history it's not intentional.
I would disagree. As high as the Oiler and Islander peaks were they've also been rotten for long stretches since their glory days. The Islanders 1994-present are about as sad as anything the Leafs iced post expansion, while the Oilers have been a mediocre franchise for the majority of their history at this point.

In terms of overall history, I'd probably rank Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston as comparables as teams that were consistent contenders for a long time.

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12-31-2011, 06:17 PM
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I'd rank Edmonton over either the Rangers or Chicago. Sure, those teams existed much longer, but for the majority of their existence, they were doormats. Especially the Rangers.

Toronto has been a doormat for the majority of time since expansion, but you can't ignore the fact that they were right there with Montreal before the expansion.

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12-31-2011, 06:18 PM
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I get the reasoning for ranking Philly over Pittsburgh. But is consistent regular season success really enough to make them better than Edmonton?

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12-31-2011, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I get the reasoning for ranking Philly over Pittsburgh. But is consistent regular season success really enough to make them better than Edmonton?
Maybe not, but the Flyers have had a lot of playoff success too... If you believe post-season success does not just mean a Cup.

Flyers just have not suffered the doldrums for long periods of time like the Oilers and Islanders now.

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01-01-2012, 01:07 AM
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Maybe not, but the Flyers have had a lot of playoff success too... If you believe post-season success does not just mean a Cup.

Flyers just have not suffered the doldrums for long periods of time like the Oilers and Islanders now.
I would agree with this, but I can see the argument for Edmonton and NYI for their impressive SC runs but overall their success has been fleeting outside of those years for the most part. Edmonton probably has a stronger case than NYI though.

Philly's 35 years in the playoffs is a pretty good mark of success.

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01-01-2012, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd rank Edmonton over either the Rangers or Chicago. Sure, those teams existed much longer, but for the majority of their existence, they were doormats. Especially the Rangers.

Toronto has been a doormat for the majority of time since expansion, but you can't ignore the fact that they were right there with Montreal before the expansion.
I think Toronto has 16 Cups to Detroit's 11, but Toronto not having much success since expansion, and Detroit having so much success over the past 20 years in a large league (more than making up for the Dead Wings period) sways it towards the Wings. That and a major advantage on all-time greats.

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01-01-2012, 02:50 AM
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Philadelphia, Edmonton, and the Islanders all have good cases to be ranked above the Rangers, Blackhawks, and Leafs.

The Oilers and Islanders boast the only two true dynasties that we're likely ever to see in the 21+ team era. Both franchises have trended significantly downward, however. Islanders are now approaching two decades without winning a playoff series. The Oilers have turned into an utter disgrace to the players and people who initially made them a proud franchise. The Flyers have fewer Cups, but have been a model of consistency, icing strong teams year after year for several decades.

The Rangers have been around over 80 years, and have honestly been no threat whatsoever in about 60 of them. I'd rank Edmonton, Philly, and Isles ahead of them without a second thought. I think I'd actually put the Devils ahead of them too.

Chicago has been a pretty solid franchise for 50 years now, but it's tough to ignore the 49-year Cup drought and the fact that they've only made the final twice since 1973. I think I'd still rank the aforementioned expansion teams above them, but the Hawks are trending upwards so this could change in a few years.

The Maple Leafs rich history is a distant memory by this point. Failing to even reach the final once in a league with more than six teams is difficult to overlook. It's now at the point where you can say the Leafs haven't been a contender for half of their existence. I can put the three expansion teams ahead of the Leafs as well.

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01-01-2012, 04:11 PM
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I'd rank Philadelphia over Chicago but that'd be the only non original 6 team I have in my top 6 all-time franchises.

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01-01-2012, 04:29 PM
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I'd rank Philadelphia over Chicago but that'd be the only non original 6 team I have in my top 6 all-time franchises.
Just curious, how do you rank the Rangers over Chicago? New York has only played for the Stanley Cup four times since 1940 and was an absolute doormat for the entire Original Six era.

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01-02-2012, 08:38 AM
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Pittsburgh Penguins

Pittsburgh Penguins deserve consideration. Peak or valley history but 3 SCs since 1967 would rank them ahead of Toronto, the Rangers, the Blackhawks, on a par with Bruins.

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01-02-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I think Toronto has 16 Cups to Detroit's 11, but Toronto not having much success since expansion, and Detroit having so much success over the past 20 years in a large league (more than making up for the Dead Wings period) sways it towards the Wings. That and a major advantage on all-time greats.
Nope its 13 to 11 in favour of Toronto, but since Detroit joined the league they actually have the exact same number. Toronto won in 1918 and 1922 while Detroit joined in 27. That coupled with the large all time greats advantage has me ranking Detroit number 2 all time behind the habs

I rank Edmonton and am on the fence with Philly above the rags and Hawks personally

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01-02-2012, 02:25 PM
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Philadelphia, Edmonton, and the Islanders all have good cases to be ranked above the Rangers, Blackhawks, and Leafs.

The Oilers and Islanders boast the only two true dynasties that we're likely ever to see in the 21+ team era. Both franchises have trended significantly downward, however. Islanders are now approaching two decades without winning a playoff series. The Oilers have turned into an utter disgrace to the players and people who initially made them a proud franchise. The Flyers have fewer Cups, but have been a model of consistency, icing strong teams year after year for several decades.

The Rangers have been around over 80 years, and have honestly been no threat whatsoever in about 60 of them. I'd rank Edmonton, Philly, and Isles ahead of them without a second thought. I think I'd actually put the Devils ahead of them too.

Chicago has been a pretty solid franchise for 50 years now, but it's tough to ignore the 49-year Cup drought and the fact that they've only made the final twice since 1973. I think I'd still rank the aforementioned expansion teams above them, but the Hawks are trending upwards so this could change in a few years.

The Maple Leafs rich history is a distant memory by this point. Failing to even reach the final once in a league with more than six teams is difficult to overlook. It's now at the point where you can say the Leafs haven't been a contender for half of their existence. I can put the three expansion teams ahead of the Leafs as well.
If it wasnt for lack of cups Blues and Sabres are also in consideration. Two teams that always been stable and had contender potential.

The New Jersey Devils might aswell have a case but only because they won cups. Theyve only went to the playoff 65% of the time.

Blues, have gone to the playoffs an incredible 80% times of their existance and Sabres, 71%. Now in a weaker conference but Rangers and Hawks only manage to get 62% and 65% of playoff exposure.

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01-02-2012, 03:26 PM
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If it wasnt for lack of cups Blues and Sabres are also in consideration. Two teams that always been stable and had contender potential.

The New Jersey Devils might aswell have a case but only because they won cups. Theyve only went to the playoff 65% of the time.
Depends how much the Devils get punished for being a punchline for the first 15 years of their existence. Over the last 20 years, they're probably 2nd only to Detroit. Given that it's simply much harder to win Cups in a 30 team league than a 6 team league, I have to give it more weight than a similar pre-expansion run of success which you'd have to go back to 1927-1940 era to find for the Rangers. How much are pre-war Cups really worth by this point in time? Most of the fans that lived through them are passed on by now.

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Blues, have gone to the playoffs an incredible 80% times of their existance and Sabres, 71%. Now in a weaker conference but Rangers and Hawks only manage to get 62% and 65% of playoff exposure.
Blues are pretty much the definition of mediocre though. Have only even made the semi-final twice in 40 years, despite being in the playoffs almost every year. Chicago by contrast has made it that far at least 10 times by my count, so I can't see an argument for the Blues over the Hawks. Rangers have a Cup, so I think that puts them above St. Louis as well.

Buffalo has quietly been one of the better regular season franchises in league history, they've just rarely been elite. Chicago's recent Cup would prevent me from putting the Sabres ahead of them, but it's pretty close with the Rangers.

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01-02-2012, 06:25 PM
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St. Louis has gone to the playoffs 35 times, and 12 of those seasons were with a losing record. There were 5 more seasons where they were at .500 or up to 3 games over .500. So half for of those playoff appearances, they were a below-average to mediocre team.

The more I think about it, Philly and Buffalo have had a remarkable run of competitive seasons. They may not have a long string of Cups, but year in and year out they give their fans a reason to show up, without going through a rough span of a few years where the team is winning 20 games and fans are jumping ship.

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01-02-2012, 09:37 PM
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Some commenters don't want to give much weight to pre-expansion Stanley Cup victories, so here are the post-expansion Stanley Cup victories by team:

Montreal Canadiens 10
Edmonton Oilers 5
New York Islanders 4
Detroit Red Wings 4
New Jersey Devils 3
Pittsburgh Penguins 3
Boston Bruins 3
Philadelphia Flyers 2
Colorado Avalanche 2
New York Rangers 1
Calgary Flames 1
Dallas Stars 1
Tampa Bay Lightning 1
Carolina Hurricanes 1
Anaheim Ducks 1
Chicago Blackhawks 1

With the Hawks winning two seasons ago, the Toronto Maple Leafs are now the only Original Six team not to win a Cup post-expansion. They haven't even made the final playoff series post-expansion. So that's no Cup victory and no final series appearance in 44 seasons (one of which was the lockout season, so it's really 43 seasons). This is an appalling record for a team that has the second highest number of Stanley Cup victories in history and that still lays claim to being Canada's team and to being one of the top franchises in the NHL.

The Canadiens' 10 Cup victories look impressive, but eight came more than 30 years ago, one more 25 years ago, and there haven't been any in 18 seasons (17 discounting the lockout season). That's appalling, too, for the team that is proudest of all of its history and winning tradition.

The Red Wings, the Devils and the Penguins are probably the most impressive franchises over the past two decades. The Flyers, too, have a solid record, although they haven't won the Cup recently.

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01-02-2012, 10:13 PM
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Leafs..... haven't even made the final playoff series post-expansion. So that's no Cup victory and no final series appearance in 44 seasons (one of which was the lockout season, so it's really 43 seasons). This is an appalling record for a team that has the second highest number of Stanley Cup victories in history and that still lays claim to being Canada's team and to being one of the top franchises in the NHL.
Yes, yes it certainly is Peter. Is it necessary to make us feel like puppies who've collectively had "accidents" in the backseat of your vehicle, completely ruining the upholstery & carpeting?.

Like, sorry.

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01-02-2012, 10:53 PM
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With the Hawks winning two seasons ago, the Toronto Maple Leafs are now the only Original Six team not to win a Cup post-expansion. They haven't even made the final playoff series post-expansion. So that's no Cup victory and no final series appearance in 44 seasons (one of which was the lockout season, so it's really 43 seasons). This is an appalling record for a team that has the second highest number of Stanley Cup victories in history and that still lays claim to being Canada's team and to being one of the top franchises in the NHL.
You can make a good argument that the Leafs are the second-worst team post-expansion, amongst the 21 teams that have been around since 1979 or sooner. Only the Jets/Coyotes franchise has a clearly worse record of success.

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The Canadiens' 10 Cup victories look impressive, but eight came more than 30 years ago, one more 25 years ago, and there haven't been any in 18 seasons (17 discounting the lockout season). That's appalling, too, for the team that is proudest of all of its history and winning tradition.
I'd say the Canadiens are still indisputably #1, but if Detroit replicates what they've done in the last 15 years over the next 15, and Montreal reaches a point where they've won just two Cups in 40 years, it would probably up for debate.

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01-02-2012, 11:12 PM
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The Canadiens' 10 Cup victories look impressive, but eight came more than 30 years ago, one more 25 years ago, and there haven't been any in 18 seasons (17 discounting the lockout season). That's appalling, too, for the team that is proudest of all of its history and winning tradition.

The Red Wings, the Devils and the Penguins are probably the most impressive franchises over the past two decades. The Flyers, too, have a solid record, although they haven't won the Cup recently.
Okay... Can somebody explain me how the fact that the Habs haven't won a Cup in 18 years and only won two in 29 years (all the while never being a doormat team, except possibly for this year) could possibly mean that the Wings passed them, considering the Wings went 14 straight seasons with sub-.500 record and, between 1967 and the Sharks arrival in the NHL, only had a +.500 record in only 4 seasons?

I mean... In that span, even the Leafs were a better team. The Wings missed the playoffs 16 times (in something like 24 seasons). That's only one less miss than the Leafs... in 42 seasons. Sad, considering they were an O-6 and that most of those teams were able to remain, at the very worst, decent during the '70 (the worst team, aside Detroit, being arguably the Leafs). It's funny that the Leafs are riled for dreadful teams, while the Wings have been REALLY dreadful for quite a period, in a time where the Leafs, while no contenders, were able to ice a decent team -- in the '70ies at the very least.

So... Wings vs. Habs? The Habs have been 18 seasons without winning the Cup. And they could possibly get to 24. AT the very worst, they could be missing the playoffs 11 times -- in an era where making the playoffs is harder -- and the Wings had the benefit of playing in the dreadful Norris division!!! The Habs were out of the playoffs for three straight years (the Vigneault era) -- but, hey, the Wings once went for 7 straight misses, worst than the current stretch of the Leafs. They interrupted that stretch, and then missed the playoffs for another 5 years. Then again, if we're to give a bonus for the Wings winning the Cup in a 21+ team league, then, by all means, there should be an inverted bonus for missing the playoffs for making the playoffs only once in 13 years when making the playoffs was much easier.


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01-02-2012, 11:33 PM
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Yes, yes it certainly is Peter. Is it necessary to make us feel like puppies who've collectively had "accidents" in the backseat of your vehicle, completely ruining the upholstery & carpeting?.

Like, sorry.
Although I'm a long-time Canadiens fan, it gives me no joy that the Leafs have been so pathetic for more than 40 years. And I wasn't much nicer about my Canadiens, was I?

For both teams, the horrible thing--the saddest, the most discouraging--is the answer to the question why. In the one case, it's managerial incompetence plus a long period of ownership apparently just not caring as long as the money came in. In the other, it's overwhelmingly pure incompetence, although I wouldn't doubt that a touch of ownership indifference has crept in. What a shame!

Given the importance of hockey in Canada and the importance of these teams to Canada, why the fans haven't risen up in arms--at least done something out of the ordinary, i.e., done something beyond business as usual in shelling out for another ticket--is inexplicable. These clubs have both let Canada down.

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01-02-2012, 11:35 PM
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Although I'm a long-time Canadiens fan, it gives me no joy that the Leafs have been so pathetic for more than 40 years. And I wasn't much nicer about my Canadiens, was I? For both teams, the horrible thing--the saddest, the most discouraging--is the answer to the question why. In the one case, it's managerial incompetence plus a long period of ownership apparently just not caring as long as the money came in. In the other, it's overwhelmingly pure incompetence, although I wouldn't doubt that a touch of ownership indifference has crept in. What a shame!

Given the importance of hockey in Canada and the importance of these teams to Canada, why the fans haven't risen up in arms--at least done something out of the ordinary, i.e., done something beyond business as usual in shelling out for another ticket--is inexplicable. These clubs have both let Canada down.
The problem with the Habs is terrible drafting during the '90ies and average drafting during the '00ies. '80ies weren't great either, except for that terrific '84 draft.

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01-02-2012, 11:54 PM
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Okay... Can somebody explain me how the fact that the Habs haven't won a Cup in 18 years and only won two in 29 years (all the while never being a doormat team, except possibly for this year) could possibly mean that the Wings passed them, considering the Wings went 14 straight seasons with sub-.500 record and, between 1967 and the Sharks arrival in the NHL, only had a +.500 record in only 4 seasons?

I mean... In that span, even the Leafs were a better team. The Wings missed the playoffs 16 times (in something like 24 seasons). That's only one less miss than the Leafs... in 42 seasons. Sad, considering they were an O-6 and that most of those teams were able to remain, at the very worst, decent during the '70 (the worst team, aside Detroit, being arguably the Leafs). It's funny that the Leafs are riled for dreadful teams, while the Wings have been REALLY dreadful for quite a period, in a time where the Leafs, while no contenders, were able to ice a decent team -- in the '70ies at the very least.

So... Wings vs. Habs? The Habs have been 18 seasons without winning the Cup. And they could possibly get to 24. AT the very worst, they could be missing the playoffs 11 times -- in an era where making the playoffs is harder -- and the Wings had the benefit of playing in the dreadful Norris division!!! The Habs were out of the playoffs for three straight years (the Vigneault era) -- but, hey, the Wings once went for 7 straight misses, worst than the current stretch of the Leafs. They interrupted that stretch, and then missed the playoffs for another 5 years. Then again, if we're to give a bonus for the Wings winning the Cup in a 21+ team league, then, by all means, there should be an inverted bonus for missing the playoffs for making the playoffs only once in 13 years when making the playoffs was much easier.
*********************

That was not my contention. I certainly don't think the Wings have surpassed the Canadiens as the best team ever or even as the best post-expansion team. But the Wings have been better over the past 20 years. And I'm terribly disappointed that the Canadiens have not done a great deal better despite the high local tax rates producing a cap disadvantage in recent years. (Surely the NHL should take into account local tax rates in setting cap limits, for otherwise some teams operate under an unfair burden. But I digress ....)

It's not that I expect anything even approaching another dynasty team. I just want a competitive team that has a chance once in a while of reaching the final series and perhaps even winning the Cup. That ought not to be too much to expect, even to insist on, given the importance of hockey and the Canadiens to Montreal and the tradition and experience that the club has. Instead, for the past 20 years and more, we've seen apparently endless incompetence.

The Maple Leafs case is much worse, of course, but the same goes for the Leafs and their fans.


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