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5 of top 6 teams in ticket Revenue are Canadian...

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Old
01-02-2012, 11:10 AM
  #26
Semantics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You have cities far larger than Montreal or Toronto that are bringing in as much ticket revenue as the second tier Canadian cities.
Well to nitpick a little, there are only two NHL cities that I'd call "far larger" than Toronto (and a third, Chicago, is slightly larger), and one of them has three teams one of which is #4 oo the list, and the other has two teams and is in a warm climate.

It's surprising to me that the revenues aren't higher for the Rangers and Sharks. These are places with a significantly higher cost of living than any Canadian city (especially Manhattan, obviously), so fans can afford very high ticket prices.

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01-02-2012, 11:24 AM
  #27
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The numbers speak for themselves.

No point in continuing to ignore the 2 or 3 Canadian markets left that can support a team. There's money to be made while having no negative effect on trying to "grow the game".

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01-02-2012, 11:37 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The 2007-2008 numbers are simply copied from their report three years ago.

You are right. I had the wrong values in mind for the $CDN exchange rate.

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01-02-2012, 12:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Not in Quebec City. With Quebecor at the helm, we don't have to worry about TV and as for as corporate support is concerned, Quebec City has more corporations that it used to have in the 90s. It MIGHT be a slight problem, but TV certainly won't be. Especially since the owner of the team will own the TV stations that will broadcast the games; that's a recipe for success.
That's probably true. Didn't think about the Quebecor angle.

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01-02-2012, 12:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Team 2010-2011 single-game ticket revenue 2010-2011 total ticket revenue 2007-2008 single-game ticket revenue Percentage Change 2005-2006 single-game ticket revenue Percentage Change from 05/06
Chicago $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $500,000 120%$404,071172.3%
Washington $1,000,000 $41,000,000 $550,000 82%$411,820167.6%
Pittsburgh $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $800,000 37.5%$580,66189.3%
Boston $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $800,000 37.5%$858,50828.1%
N.Y. Rangers $1,600,000 $65,600,000 $1,300,000 23%$939,46470.3%
Vancouver $1,700,000 $69,700,000 $1,400,000 21.4%$1,041,77863.3%
Montreal $2,000,000 $82,000,000 $1,700,000 17.6%$1,212,83565.0%
San Jose $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $950,000 15.8%$780,09341.0%
Calgary $1,500,000 $61,500,000 $1,300,000 15.4%$896,47567.4%
Los Angeles $750,000 $30,750,000 $650,000 15.4%$702,7226.8%
Detroit $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $1,000,000 10%$1,108,3130%
Philadelphia $1,100,000 $45,100,000 $1,000,000 10%$974,14512.9%
Edmonton $1,300,000 $53,300,000 $1,200,000 8.3%$835,87255.7%
St. Louis $650,000 $26,650,000 $600,000 8.3%$407,18159.7%
Buffalo $800,000 $32,800,000 $750,000 6.6%$544,23847.1%
Toronto $2,000,000 $82,000,000 $1,900,000 5.3% $1,484,94734.7%
Nashville $575,000 $23,575,000 $600,000 -4.2%$430,59633.7%
Carolina $660,000 $27,060,000 $700,000 -5.7%$498,89332.3%
Phoenix $420,000 $17,220,000 $450,000 -6.7%$504,760-16.8%
Florida $460,000 $18,860,000 $500,000 -8%$515,810-10.7%
Ottawa $1,110,000 $45,100,000 $1,200,000 -8.3%$844,92731.5%
Minnesota $1,000,000 $41,000,000 $1,100,000 -9.1%$966,6563.5%
Anaheim $750,000 $30,750,000 $900,000 -16.7%$657,06014.2%
Columbus $660,000 $27,060,000 $800,000 -17.5%$835,031-21.0%
New Jersey $700,000 $28,700,000 $850,000 -17.6%$554,89026.4%
Colorado $750,000 $30,750,000 $1,000,000 -25%$1,081,134-30.6%
N.Y. Islanders $392,000 $16,072,000 $550,000 -28.7%$525,871-25.3%
Dallas $660,000 $27,060,000 $950,000 -30.5%$923,323-28.5%
Atlanta $330,000 $13,530,000 $550,000 -40%$488,760-32.4%
Tampa Bay $440,000 $18,040,000 $800,000 -45%$805,371-45.3%

From the print version.
Here is your chart modified with the Globe Data from 2005-2006 added.

I am going to massage this to factor out the increase in the $CDN when I get a chance.

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Old
01-02-2012, 03:22 PM
  #31
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This really isn't a surprise. NHL Tickets are so much cheaper in the States.

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01-02-2012, 07:35 PM
  #32
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Its a tough spot for the NHL.

For every team they move to Canada, the less money they can get from a National TV deal in the US. Ideally you want as many major markets covered off for US TV. Losing Atlanta for Winnipeg was a massive blow to the league. As would moving Phoenix to Quebec City.

But you have to be realistic. The NHL will likely never be one of the top 3 or 4 sports in the US on TV. So if they can admit they are a gate driven league, they should be looking for as many Canadian markets as possible.

Quebec City, a team in Southern Ontario, and maybe even another in Toronto seem like no brainers. Then you get into other options; maybe a 2nd team in Vancouver and/or Montreal? A team on the East Coast, maybe even Saskatchewan.

I dont think we'll see 7 more teams in Canada, but I dont think its out of the question that Canada ends up with 3-5 more teams in the next 5-10 years. Canadians love hockey, they will pay top dollar to go to the games. The fact is, most markets in the US just wont do that.

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01-02-2012, 08:01 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Its a tough spot for the NHL.

For every team they move to Canada, the less money they can get from a National TV deal in the US. Ideally you want as many major markets covered off for US TV. Losing Atlanta for Winnipeg was a massive blow to the league. As would moving Phoenix to Quebec City.

But you have to be realistic. The NHL will likely never be one of the top 3 or 4 sports in the US on TV. So if they can admit they are a gate driven league, they should be looking for as many Canadian markets as possible.

Quebec City, a team in Southern Ontario, and maybe even another in Toronto seem like no brainers. Then you get into other options; maybe a 2nd team in Vancouver and/or Montreal? A team on the East Coast, maybe even Saskatchewan.

I dont think we'll see 7 more teams in Canada, but I dont think its out of the question that Canada ends up with 3-5 more teams in the next 5-10 years. Canadians love hockey, they will pay top dollar to go to the games. The fact is, most markets in the US just wont do that.


On the bold LMAO there was less people watching the Thrashers on TV than they had at the games! It is really not that hard to understand..... Most revenue for NHL teams come from the gate if the ticket prices are to low (like most US cities) you lose money (like most US NHL teams) very simple!

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01-02-2012, 08:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Gotaf7 View Post
On the bold LMAO there was less people watching the Thrashers on TV than they had at the games! It is really not that hard to understand..... Most revenue for NHL teams come from the gate if the ticket prices are to low (like most US cities) you lose money (like most US NHL teams) very simple!

It's not whether people are watching, it's whether or not they have enough teams and areas that people could theoretically watch the game in for the major networks to give a poop.

They need to get more teams in the west and stop forcing teams into deserts and swamps.

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01-02-2012, 08:29 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotaf7 View Post
On the bold LMAO there was less people watching the Thrashers on TV than they had at the games! It is really not that hard to understand..... Most revenue for NHL teams come from the gate if the ticket prices are to low (like most US cities) you lose money (like most US NHL teams) very simple!
I dont think you understand the point. You should have read my post more carefully. When you do, all of your questions will be answered.

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01-02-2012, 09:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post

With Quebec and Hamilton added, I will fully support more sunbelt expansion experiments. Yes, the Coyotes have been "an unmitigated disaster". But LA, and Dallas (when not running around headless due to Hicks' other "investments" destroying him) and San Jose and Anaheim have been quite successful.
The bolded is where I stand.

Why is this so hard for the NHL? Put teams in all of the Canadian cities that want Hockey, then expand to the sunbelt. That way they make money off the places that are interested in Hockey and can work on expanding to larger markets.

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01-02-2012, 09:52 PM
  #37
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Quebec City and Hamilton are the last two markets in Canada, outside of a second Toronto team (which would make Hamilton a non-starter) which could support NHL hockey.

If Winnipeg didn't get a team, there would be the critical mass of a dozen markets in Canada which could support a second level pro league (CFL versus NFL type thing) that would probably be comparable to the European leagues as far as competition level and prestige.

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01-02-2012, 11:51 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I think it has more to do with the relative size of the arenas than it does the absolute price of the tickets. The Bell Centre has a capacity of 21273. The ACC has a capacity of 18800. That means the Bell Centre is 13% larger. TO still has the highest ticket prices I would guess.
But i'm saying the team is making a lot of money from the fans while they put a bad product on the ice.

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01-03-2012, 12:06 AM
  #39
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Everyone knows that hockey works only in the north of United States.

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01-03-2012, 02:22 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
After Quebec and Hamilton there's nowhere else to add in Canada.
I suspect that second teams in Toronto & probably Montreal would work, and be profitable. But in terms of markets, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
With Quebec and Hamilton added, I will fully support more sunbelt expansion experiments.
I stand with kk (and dronald). Expansion is fine, but the NHL should cater to the easy wins first. Québec & Hamilton - with the right arena deals etc - are gimmes. Expansions into non traditional markets are riskier. We all know just how poorly the Thrashers were run - but so were the Leafs & Oilers - Canada will support teams with bad ownership, the USA abandons it. If the NHL wants to try again in Atlanta & Phoenix, stronger guaranteed revenue in Canada to share is a smart move, IMO.

And of course, I'd rather Québec have the team it longs for than Portland get a team that it ends up ignoring.

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01-03-2012, 02:43 AM
  #41
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Actually, I remember the shock when the first leaked data was published first by the G&M and then by the Toronto Star a few years ago. Before then some posters here were actually trying to maintain that Canada could not possibly support additional NHL teams -- at least outside of a second one in the GTA. A lot of information has leaked or otherwise become more widely available in the interim -- on gate receipts, comp tickets that artificially increase attendance figures in certain markets, TV ratings and revenues, on the dire financial conditions of certain franchises, etc., etc. Now the reception of this new data is taken as a matter of course. It and the recent success of Winnipeg certainly speak well for additional NHL teams to be relocated to Canadian markets such as Quebec City, Hamilton and the GTA.

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01-03-2012, 02:47 AM
  #42
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Winnipeg is pretty well on the same plain as Edm Cgy and Ott.
I think I worked it out to be around $1.2mm per game.
Yes, I would say that's a good ball park figure -- $1.2MM. I suspect Winnipeg this year will be higher than Ottawa's $1.1MM figure last year. But, but...the MTS Centre doesn't hold enough seats to host an NHL team!!

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01-03-2012, 02:52 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Team 2010-2011 single-game ticket revenue 2010-2011 total ticket revenue 2007-2008 single-game ticket revenue Percentage Change
Tampa Bay $440,000 $18,040,000 $800,000 -45%
uh..... WTF's going on in Tampa? I was under the impression that things were going great down there.

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01-03-2012, 02:58 AM
  #44
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uh..... WTF's going on in Tampa? I was under the impression that things were going great down there.
If you don't mind me asking, why? That team had a great deal of trouble finding anyone that had sufficient capital and was willing to run it. There is a reason for that.

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01-03-2012, 06:25 AM
  #45
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uh..... WTF's going on in Tampa? I was under the impression that things were going great down there.
I'm guessing it's because the economy is in a shambles. Looks like the meltdown of 2008 exposed some pretty thin support in some markets.

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01-03-2012, 06:27 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
Yes, I would say that's a good ball park figure -- $1.2MM. I suspect Winnipeg this year will be higher than Ottawa's $1.1MM figure last year. But, but...the MTS Centre doesn't hold enough seats to host an NHL team!!
oh wait thats right....
Move them then
I hear Mexico city wants to host an outdoor game

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01-03-2012, 07:00 AM
  #47
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What's the problem in St. Louis and Nashville ?

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01-03-2012, 07:33 AM
  #48
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uh..... WTF's going on in Tampa? I was under the impression that things were going great down there.
It's getting better, but you're not going to see good numbers out of Tampa Bay for at least a couple of years. Important to remember that when Vinik took over, the entire organization was a mess. The team was a disaster as was the building they played in. Fans were treated badly, Forum employees were being laid off in batch lots, the AHL affiliate was about to revolt. And lets not forget that Koules and Barrie ran up a whole lot of debts and bad feelings that Vinik had to repay and fix. None of it was as bad as the Thrashers for example, but it wasn't a pretty picture. We just got a whole lot luckier than Atlanta did.

Tampa Bay has a pretty strong core of die hard hockey fans, but there just aren't as many of them as in more traditional markets. Those numbers are growing as the transplants raise a new generation of Lightning fans, but the very last thing Vinik could do was come in and raise up ticket prices. Not only is the economy in the tank, but the trust level in pro-sports ownership in Tampa Bay is really low. Vinik is doing it the right way.

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01-03-2012, 08:05 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
If you don't mind me asking, why? That team had a great deal of trouble finding anyone that had sufficient capital and was willing to run it. There is a reason for that.
Haven't you heard, good ownership fixes everything! Just get an owner who "knows what they're doing" and the fans will turn out in droves to throw money at the team. The Coyotes have been waiting for years for someone like Vinnik to come along and buy them, turning a sketchy hockey market into an instant success.

That is why people assumed Tampa was just fine and dandy now. New owner. Easier to blame weak ticket sales on the idiots who used to own the team than a lousy hockey market. Turns out, shockingly, that even a competent owner can't work miracles.

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01-03-2012, 08:26 AM
  #50
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Haven't you heard, good ownership fixes everything! Just get an owner who "knows what they're doing" and the fans will turn out in droves to throw money at the team. The Coyotes have been waiting for years for someone like Vinnik to come along and buy them, turning a sketchy hockey market into an instant success.

That is why people assumed Tampa was just fine and dandy now. New owner. Easier to blame weak ticket sales on the idiots who used to own the team than a lousy hockey market. Turns out, shockingly, that even a competent owner can't work miracles.
You're ignoring the fact that ticket sales for the Lightning are much better now. People in fact have turned out to throw money at the team. I'm sure that the end numbers are going to show a overall loss ($40 million+ in owner paid renos will have a great deal to do with that), but ticket revenue and attendance will be much better for 2011-12 than 2010-11. Over 6,000 new full ST packages sold for this season. Along with partial ticket packages up from 5,000 STH last year to almost 13,000 this season. Not anywhere close to Toronto or NY numbers, but if you don't consider that fans coming out to support a new ownership I don't know what to tell you.

Corporate sponsorships are way up as well. That's progress. I don't think you'll find many Lightning fans that expected everything to turn up roses and rainbows in less than two years of Vinik ownership, but the progress that has been made is as close to a "miracle" as you're going to get

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