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Around the NHL Part XXIII

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Old
01-13-2012, 06:42 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by TullyNYR View Post
Ok, since you're such a numbers guy, I think the Rangers can compete with the Bruins because we're ahead of you in the standings. Is that good enough?

For ****'s sake, the teams haven't even played yet. At least wait until January 21st to start coming here and running your mouth.
Oh, I'm not all about numbers. It also has to do with the fact that you're comparing the defending Stanley Cup Champions to a team that hasn't won a series in 4 years.

And when you look at how the Bruins are winning, how can you even compare?

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01-13-2012, 06:42 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
I'm well aware that biased opinions will be presented. I'm more interested in the support behind them. It genuinely baffles me to think someone can legitimately think the Rangers can compete with the Bruins, or that they'd take Lundqvist over Thomas after what he's accomplished, so I'm trying to understand how people can think that. What's wrong with that?
The problem is that you simply don't accept the arguments from others, but I'll give it one last try and try to give you my reaosns: I think Lundqvist is as good as Thomas because I watch him nearly every game. And I believe the Rangers can compete with the Bruins, because over the last two years they are 6-2-0 against them.

You'll probably dismiss both reasons as biased or invalid, but I don't care and I doubt many others here care.

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01-13-2012, 06:45 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
It should be really simple to understand how people will take "Lundqvist over Thomas after what he's accomplished." Until this year, Lundqvist has never had the type of team in front of him to make accomplishing what Thomas has. Accomplishments for a goalie are a team statistic.
So did the additions to the team this year make Lundqvist a better goalie all of a sudden? Not every accomplishment by a goalie is a team statistic.

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01-13-2012, 06:46 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
So did the additions to the team this year make Lundqvist a better goalie all of a sudden? Not every accomplishment by a goalie is a team statistic.
No, they made the Rangers a MUCH better team, which is why your argument that Lundqvist has never succeeded in the playoffs is virtually meaningless, and why basing the Rangers' chances this season off of what they accomplished (or didn't) in the past is a pointless endeavor.

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01-13-2012, 06:54 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
The problem is that you simply don't accept the arguments from others,
If I don't agree with them, of course I'm not going to accept it. It doesn't mean I'm wrong.

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but I'll give it one last try and try to give you my reaosns: I think Lundqvist is as good as Thomas because I watch him nearly every game.
Surely you can see why that's very flawed, right?

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And I believe the Rangers can compete with the Bruins, because over the last two years they are 6-2-0 against them.
First of all, there are a ton of variables that go into this, as I'm sure you know. But the main point is that Playoff hockey is a completely different game. It's one thing to beat a team once every few months, but when you're going up against a team back-to-back-to-back, it's a whole different ball game. There just isn't a team that can match up with the Bruins physically. And with their depth they can just keep rolling and keep fresh.

Plus, there's the whole aspect of the Rangers just being too green in the Playoffs. The Bruins were conditioned to become the team they are now through failure. You think it's a coincidence that the Bruins are the best at holding onto a lead or that they routinely mow down opponents when they have a lead? The Rangers just don't have anything like that that built up team chemistry.

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01-13-2012, 06:54 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
Uh huh... screw the record setting numbers. No one can watch every game for every team. You don't think statistics are at least a little bit useful to look at. I'm sure you'll be quick to bring up Lundqvist's win stats.

He can play so aggressively because of his athleticism. Who has more acrobatic saves than Thomas? As for second chance opportunities, his rebound control is second to none.
And you'll just as quickly bring Tim Thomas stats. I'm in no way saying Thomas sucks, in fact I'm saying the contrary. I believe we are talking about the league's top 2 goalies here who have styles that couldn't be any different.

To me it's like comparing Darrelle Revis to Charles Woodson. Lundqvist being Revis as he is more a shutdown type goalie and doesn't play a sexy style. Thomas is like a Woodson, he plays aggressive and makes some sensational highlight reel saves. Like in 2010, Woodson got defensive player of the year awards for all the interceptions he had, while Revis shut down nearly every team but his play was not on highlights night after night.

What seperates the two, at least this year, is how many times Hank has had to stand on his head.

I mean how many times have the Bruins won by scores of 6-2, 6-1,5-2...

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01-13-2012, 07:00 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
If I don't agree with them, of course I'm not going to accept it. It doesn't mean I'm wrong.



Surely you can see why that's very flawed, right?
So are your arguments, they aren't any better than mine or the others presented here.

You know what's so great about hockey? You don't know how things are going to turn out until the games are played. Because otherwise, by your logic, we could end the season right now and just let the Bruins keep the Cup.

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01-13-2012, 07:02 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by BleedingBlueSince92 View Post
And you'll just as quickly bring Tim Thomas stats. I'm in no way saying Thomas sucks, in fact I'm saying the contrary. I believe we are talking about the league's top 2 goalies here who have styles that couldn't be any different.
And I'm not saying Lundqvist sucks either. One of the best in the league. But what Thomas is doing is historical. How can you just ignore that? Thomas' stats are mostly on an individual level, where as Lundqvist's are mainly on a team level when people bring them up.

Quote:
To me it's like comparing Darrelle Revis to Charles Woodson. Lundqvist being Revis as he is more a shutdown type goalie and doesn't play a sexy style. Thomas is like a Woodson, he plays aggressive and makes some sensational highlight reel saves. Like in 2010, Woodson got defensive player of the year awards for all the interceptions he had, while Revis shut down nearly every team but his play was not on highlights night after night.
This is a major misconception. Yes, he does make a ton of highlight reel saves, but he's evolved into a way more complete goalie, ever since the year before his first Vezina, really. He just adds that dimension that Lundqvist doesn't have.

Quote:
What seperates the two, at least this year, is how many times Hank has had to stand on his head.
Why should Thomas be discredited for his team being so good? It doesn't make him any worse of a goalie. He's certainly proven he can steal games.

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01-13-2012, 07:06 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
So are your arguments, they aren't any better than mine or the others presented here.

You know what's so great about hockey? You don't know how things are going to turn out until the games are played. Because otherwise, by your logic, we could end the season right now and just let the Bruins keep the Cup.
Well, like I said, freak things can happen. They're just not very likely to.

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01-13-2012, 07:14 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
Why should Thomas be discredited for his team being so good? It doesn't make him any worse of a goalie. He's certainly proven he can steal games.
If you don't think Thomas shouldn't be discredited for his team being so good, then I guess you shouldn't do the same thing with Lundqvist, but you still did when you attempted to diminish Lundqvist's success as a result of the way the Rangers block shots and collapse as a team.

And I'm pretty sure Henrik Lundqvist has stolen a lot more games for the Rangers over the last few years than Thomas has, because the Rangers have, until this season, been a much worse team than the Bruins. How many times have Thomas' teams made the playoffs when they had no business being there? Lundqvist has dragged teams that had no business being in the postseason to the playoffs 4 times now.

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01-13-2012, 07:16 PM
  #836
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Dipietro, with his season ending surgery, will have played 47 NHL games the last 4 seasons.

That amounts to, with his 4.5 mil cap hit, 334 thousand dollars per game started. And he is below a .900 save percentage in that time.

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01-13-2012, 07:18 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post

But anyways, either way you look at it, to suggest that the Rangers have a better defense/goaltending combo than the Bruins is downright laughable.
Currently in the standings, Bruins and Rangers are 1 and 2 in GAA. This is with the likes of Bickell, Starlman, Woywitka and Eminger playing significant minutes. Your defense was healthy for most of the season so far.
With this makeshift D, Lundqvist bests Thomas in GAA and SV%. That tells me Henrik is much better than Thomas, to think otherwise is downright silly.

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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
So do some of you actually think the Rangers can compete with the Bruins?
- You need to get your head examined; asking that question on Rangers board.
- The answer to that is an emphatic yes, I will go one step further, not only I think they can compete with the Bruins, I am confident they can beat them. Look at the record head to head last 2 years, the Rangers are 6-2. The Rangers kicked the Bruin's ass, let alone compete with them.
Good luck on the 21st, you are going to need it.

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01-13-2012, 07:19 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
If you don't think Thomas shouldn't be discredited for his being so good, then I guess you shouldn't do the same thing with Lundqvist, but you still did when you attempted to diminish Lundqvist's success as a result of the way the Rangers block shots and collapse as a team.
I said both teams defensive play inflate their stats to a degree. When did I say otherwise? What I'm saying is that you guys overrate Boston's defense's presence and underrate the Rangers defensive presence.

Quote:
And I'm pretty sure Henrik Lundqvist has stolen a lot more games for the Rangers over the last few years than Thomas has, because the Rangers have, until this season, been a much worse team than the Bruins. How many times have Thomas' teams made the playoffs when they had no business being there? Lundqvist has dragged teams that had no business being in the postseason to the playoffs 4 times now.
Again, why does this matter at all? How does the Bruins being an unbelievable team detract from how good Thomas is? It's not like you can only have one or the other. Plus, the Bruins were not always this exceptional. Thomas has been ever since he came into the league really, but particularly in the last 4.5 seasons.

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01-13-2012, 07:24 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
And I'm not saying Lundqvist sucks either. One of the best in the league. But what Thomas is doing is historical. How can you just ignore that? Thomas' stats are mostly on an individual level, where as Lundqvist's are mainly on a team level when people bring them up.



This is a major misconception. Yes, he does make a ton of highlight reel saves, but he's evolved into a way more complete goalie, ever since the year before his first Vezina, really. He just adds that dimension that Lundqvist doesn't have.



Why should Thomas be discredited for his team being so good? It doesn't make him any worse of a goalie. He's certainly proven he can steal games.
All stats whether it is "individual" or a "team" stat are majorly influenced by the TEAM. And you act like Lundqvist doesn't have great stats. Stats don't always tell the whole truth, this is why I'm trying to get away from stats and go by what I see. In no way am I ignoring Thomas' 'record setting' stats, I'm simply saying theres more to it than meets the eye.

And you as well have a misconception, Lundqvist DOES make incredible saves. For the most part, Hank is a positionally sound goalie, therefore he doesn't have to make incredible diving-pad-stacking-reach-behind-saves. You know, the ones that make ESPN's top 10 every night. I'm trying to be as objective as I can and not discredit Thomas for his aggressive style, but his aggressiveness does lead to nearly all his 'incredible' saves.

Thomas style demands him to be acrobatic to make these saves, it's not just an extra benefit that no other goalie has. Aggressive goalies are generally acrobatic as butterfly goalies are quick from side to side. It just goes along with their styles. If Thomas wasn't acrobatic and Lundqvist not quick, they would not be NHL goalies.

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01-13-2012, 07:26 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Dipietro, with his season ending surgery, will have played 47 NHL games the last 4 seasons.

That amounts to, with his 4.5 mil cap hit, 334 thousand dollars per game started. And he is below a .900 save percentage in that time.
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DiPietro tells Newsday no plans to retire: "Nothing like that has even crossed my mind... I know I can play." #Isles
Oh man. You gotta feel bad for him as a human being for just being so constantly injured...but wow.

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01-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Dipietro, with his season ending surgery, will have played 47 NHL games the last 4 seasons.

That amounts to, with his 4.5 mil cap hit, 334 thousand dollars per game started. And he is below a .900 save percentage in that time.
Still can't beat Drury's 1.6 million per game from last year. Although if you add the playoffs (for which players technically don't get paid) his 800k per game are closer. And if you take cap hit instead of salary it even comes down to 700k.

Either way, talk about getting bang for the buck...

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01-13-2012, 07:33 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by BleedingBlueSince92 View Post
All stats whether it is "individual" or a "team" stat are majorly influenced by the TEAM. And you act like Lundqvist doesn't have great stats. Stats don't always tell the whole truth, this is why I'm trying to get away from stats and go by what I see. In no way am I ignoring Thomas' 'record setting' stats, I'm simply saying theres more to it than meets the eye.
Surely you can see why wins are a far more team-influenced stat than save %, right?

Quote:
And you as well have a misconception, Lundqvist DOES make incredible saves. For the most part, Hank is a positionally sound goalie, therefore he doesn't have to make incredible diving-pad-stacking-reach-behind-saves. You know, the ones that make ESPN's top 10 every night. I'm trying to be as objective as I can and not discredit Thomas for his aggressive style, but his aggressiveness does lead to nearly all his 'incredible' saves.

Thomas style demands him to be acrobatic to make these saves, it's not just an extra benefit that no other goalie has. Aggressive goalies are generally acrobatic as butterfly goalies are quick from side to side. It just goes along with their styles. If Thomas wasn't acrobatic and Lundqvist not quick, they would not be NHL goalies.
But that's what makes Thomas so great. The aggressiveness that he plays with causes fits for opposing shooters. Obviously he wouldn't be as good if he wasn't so acrobatic, but that doesn't matter because he is that acrobatic.

Thomas is rewriting the record books right now, and is being as consistent as a goalie can be. It's just baffling how he can't be considered the best.

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01-13-2012, 07:34 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
Well, he doesn't have a better save %, but Thomas is making exceptional the norm for him, where as Lundqvist is way overacheiving for himself right now.
This is where the argument ends because apparently you think this is Lundqvist's first year of success.

Also, wasn't Rask your starting goalie last year because of how inconsistent Thomas was?

Lundqvist is the model for goalie consistency.

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01-13-2012, 07:35 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by BleedingBlueSince92 View Post
This is where the argument ends because apparently you think this is Lundqvist's first year of success.

Also, wasn't Rask your starting goalie last year because of how inconsistent Thomas was?

Lundqvist is the model for goalie consistency.
Two years ago, actually.

But then, he only played 54 and 57 games in his Vezina seasons.

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01-13-2012, 07:39 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
So did the additions to the team this year make Lundqvist a better goalie all of a sudden? Not every accomplishment by a goalie is a team statistic.
No, seriously they all are.

GAA is bad without a decent D.
Wins don't happen with offensive support.
SVP goes down without decent D (face more high quality shots)

So there are your stats.

Without good stats, you can't win a Vezina. Team accomplishment.

Stanley Cup? Team accomplishment.
Conn Smythe? Not without getting to the finals. Team accomplishment
Hart? Not without a ton of wins. Team accomplishment.

I'm not downplaying the importance of a great goalie, but even the best goalies don't accomplish much without a team that performs in front of them.

The development of McDonagh and DelZotto, the surprising play of Stralman, and the added goal support, through the addition of Richards and the development of some of our young forwards, have all made Lundqvist a better goalie this season.

Lundqvist has been in a groove for most of the year, there is no doubt about that. Even he has said it. The good play of Biron has allowed his body to stay fresher than usual too. He worked on his glove and he worked on not thinking as much during the game in the offseason, that has helped.

But in reality, there isn't a point, even before this year, where I would've said that Thomas is a better goaltender than Lundqvist. Personally, I don't really think Lundqvist is better than Thomas either. The two goalies are on the same exact level.

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01-13-2012, 07:39 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by Sheer Con View Post
Surely you can see why wins are a far more team-influenced stat than save %, right?



But that's what makes Thomas so great. The aggressiveness that he plays with causes fits for opposing shooters. Obviously he wouldn't be as good if he wasn't so acrobatic, but that doesn't matter because he is that acrobatic.

Thomas is rewriting the record books right now, and is being as consistent as a goalie can be. It's just baffling how he can't be considered the best.
I for one look at Tuukka Rask's stats and see that they are similiar to Thomas' for multiple years now. That tells me the Bruins system helps goaltenders a lot.

You are entitled to your opinion and we entitled to ours. You're not going to change our opinion while I don't think we will change yours. Why don't we call it a debate and end this here? It's pretty pointless and litters this thread which is supposed to be about events from around the league and not about Bruins vs. Rangers. Wasn't there a thread already dedicated to that game on the 21st? After that game there might be something new to talk about, until then this discussion is moot as each of our opinions won't change without new evidence.

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01-13-2012, 07:40 PM
  #847
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Last I looked...

The Boston back-up has better numbers. Pitches shutouts almost every with few exceptions. that tells me the "system" has more than a little to do with Thomas's success. You put Hank on the b's (gasp!) you'd see the same or better numbers. But all that said, the game is played on ice, not paper. 6-2 is a quantitative fact. Now bugger off!

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01-13-2012, 07:42 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by BleedingBlueSince92 View Post
This is where the argument ends because apparently you think this is Lundqvist's first year of success.

Also, wasn't Rask your starting goalie last year because of how inconsistent Thomas was?

Lundqvist is the model for goalie consistency.
How is this not a career year for Lundqvist? Thomas, on the other hand, has made historical performances the norm.

And surely you were made aware of Thomas' hip injury that season? I'd say he's pretty much recovered now.

But that raises an interesting point. Rask is an absolutely phenomenal goaltender as well, and that further tips the scale in Boston's favour for goaltending. It really is an embarassment of riches.

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01-13-2012, 07:42 PM
  #849
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1. Lundqvist
2. Thomas

period lol

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01-13-2012, 07:43 PM
  #850
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Again, you guys discredit Thomas based on other's success? Rask is amazing. Can a team not have to world-class goalies?

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