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"Fire Arniel" Thread Part II

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Old
01-04-2012, 02:21 PM
  #76
TaketheCannoli
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
My concern is that Howson has publicly stated that CBJ will be active once the freeze was lifted.
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
"Being active" doesn't mean you're necessarily going to see anything immediately. There is, by necessity, a lot of behind-the-scenes work for that sort of thing. He's also already come out and said that he doesn't feel Arniel is the problem, so his firing/nonfiring would not be a fair indicator of activity. (Whether or not you agree or disagree with this course of action is a separate point entirely.)
I am sure there is lots of activity. I bet Howson and MacFarland are burning up the phones trying to figure out who or what is available, as well as what others want from the Jackets.

My real fear is the outcome they may be working to acheive. If Howson is trying to "save" this season, then it's doubtful something good can come of the exercise. Best case, if you call it that, Howson makes some sort of deals that send this team on a winning streak. Even an heretofore unprecented streak for the Jackets, say 30-10-4 would leave them on the outside of the playoffs with 89 points.

I would like to see no personnel moves until a solid plan is in place. At that point, someone needs to weed out whom to keep and whom to trade for futures.

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01-04-2012, 02:29 PM
  #77
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...Even an heretofore unprecented streak for the Jackets, say 30-10-4 would leave them on the outside of the playoffs with 89 points.
I know there are many who would be disappointed by this outcome, but I'm not among them. Teams don't go 30-10-4 by accident, so I must assume that, should it happen, suddenly (and totally inexplicably) the CBJ had become good enough to win that many. Thus the #9 pick is all we deserve and need!

OK, make it happen!

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01-04-2012, 02:35 PM
  #78
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I am sure there is lots of activity. I bet Howson and MacFarland are burning up the phones trying to figure out who or what is available, as well as what others want from the Jackets.
Are you trying to scare the hell out of me?

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My real fear is the outcome they may be working to acheive. If Howson is trying to "save" this season, then it's doubtful something good can come of the exercise.
I doubt even Howson is that delusional. He didn't make trades earlier in his tenure when we were actually far closer to the 8th spot.

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I would like to see no personnel moves until a solid plan is in place. At that point, someone needs to weed out whom to keep and whom to trade for futures.
What kind of plan are you looking for? I mean, seriously, if they haven't figured out yet which players they want to keep from this roster, we've got some major problems. I am sure Craig already is comfortable with 95% of the roster, if not 80% of our top prospects. Wasn't that one of the first things he did, headed out to watch Springfield?

This homework has been done for a long, long time and Craig isn't going to be able to personally evaluate each player (go out and watch them).

We make this out to be some long difficult process. There is only one new player and he's not a new player. If he were GM tomorrow, he would already know what he wanted to do from day one. What he didn't know off the top of his head, he would already have contacts to bounce things off of.

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01-04-2012, 04:41 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Are you trying to scare the hell out of me?
Most assistant GMs get very involved in trades and free agent transactions. Hell, Toronto had their assistants handle the whole July 1st ufa market last summer. Burke was out of the country.



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I doubt even Howson is that delusional. He didn't make trades earlier in his tenure when we were actually far closer to the 8th spot.
Then why the recent quote about waiting for the roster to stabilize before realizing they are not good enough and promising high levels of activity?



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What kind of plan are you looking for? I mean, seriously, if they haven't figured out yet which players they want to keep from this roster, we've got some major problems. I am sure Craig already is comfortable with 95% of the roster, if not 80% of our top prospects. Wasn't that one of the first things he did, headed out to watch Springfield?

This homework has been done for a long, long time and Craig isn't going to be able to personally evaluate each player (go out and watch them).
I think you boiled it down to its essence; we've got major problems!




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We make this out to be some long difficult process. There is only one new player and he's not a new player. If he were GM tomorrow, he would already know what he wanted to do from day one. What he didn't know off the top of his head, he would already have contacts to bounce things off of.
The long process is finding a new GM and that GM finding a new coach. I suggest they find a coach who is in touch with the "new NHL." Look at what that's done for St. Louis !

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01-04-2012, 06:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I know there are many who would be disappointed by this outcome, but I'm not among them. Teams don't go 30-10-4 by accident, so I must assume that, should it happen, suddenly (and totally inexplicably) the CBJ had become good enough to win that many. Thus the #9 pick is all we deserve and need!

OK, make it happen!
hear hear. we aren't going to get 30-10-4 out of this bunch, but if we did that would be good momentum heading into next year. The fail4nailers don't take into account that losing means something, and it's tough to shake. A 30-10-4 stretch would be great for this team

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01-04-2012, 07:38 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I know there are many who would be disappointed by this outcome, but I'm not among them. Teams don't go 30-10-4 by accident, so I must assume that, should it happen, suddenly (and totally inexplicably) the CBJ had become good enough to win that many. Thus the #9 pick is all we deserve and need!

OK, make it happen!
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
hear hear. we aren't going to get 30-10-4 out of this bunch, but if we did that would be good momentum heading into next year. The fail4nailers don't take into account that losing means something, and it's tough to shake. A 30-10-4 stretch would be great for this team
Yes, I also would be cheering and happy if the Jackets went on a 30-10-4 run even if it meant finishing in 10th. I still have tickets to games and hate spending money to go to losses.

Even though I cheer for them every game, I now try not to get too upset if they lose. I am against tanking, but I've taken the attitude that if we really are this bad, then hopefully the high pick will provide a small consolation for having to put up with a team that was out of it by Halloween. I've also found it helps to cheer for Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, etc as it helps the Jackets both in terms of draft choice and keeping the teams bunched together so that the playoffs remain a 0.001% shot.

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01-04-2012, 07:50 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
The long process is finding a new GM and that GM finding a new coach. I suggest they find a coach who is in touch with the "new NHL." Look at what that's done for St. Louis !
I see what you did there.

Of course, some people here were wishing we had locked Boucher up to a 10 year deal last May...

I'd sure like to see what a guy like Michel Therrien could do with this team.

Count me among the anti-tank fans. You always try your best and you always play to win. Always.

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01-04-2012, 07:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
hear hear. we aren't going to get 30-10-4 out of this bunch, but if we did that would be good momentum heading into next year. The fail4nailers don't take into account that losing means something, and it's tough to shake. A 30-10-4 stretch would be great for this team
I've heard this argument year after year and I have yet to see proof that winning streaks at the tail end of seasons translates into sustained winning the following seasons. To me it's like saying that preseason matters -- does anyone actually recall that we went 5-2-1 this preseason?

Perhaps you know of some teams that ended well and used that as a springboard to success the following seasons? The only one that comes to my mind is the New Jersey Devils from last year and they are barely hanging onto 8th place in the East right now.

The St. Louis Blues went on a nice run in the 2nd half of 08-09 but missed the playoffs the following two seasons.

Now what I have seen more often are teams that get the can't miss prospects and use that as a springboard to long term success. Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago and Tampa come immediately to mind. Edmonton looks to be on it's way up.

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01-04-2012, 08:01 PM
  #84
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Oh no, it's the time of the year where everyone goes on the bandwagon of "I want to see a winning streak now, because it will most certainly carry over to the next season"!

Anyway, I am still awestruck that Arniel is still around. Good for him, I guess

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01-04-2012, 08:11 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Most assistant GMs get very involved in trades and free agent transactions. Hell, Toronto had their assistants handle the whole July 1st ufa market last summer. Burke was out of the country.
I was joking...

Quote:
Then why the recent quote about waiting for the roster to stabilize before realizing they are not good enough and promising high levels of activity?
I don't see how any of that relates to what was posted. He said around X-Mas that he wasn't giving up on the season, but we continued to suck.... Saying we aren't good enough and making a trade to compete for this year are two different things. Not to mention, did you really believe him? It's something you say.

RJ basically said we have no chance in a recent Dispatch article.

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I think you boiled it down to its essence; we've got major problems!
Meh, nothing to add here....

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The long process is finding a new GM and that GM finding a new coach. I suggest they find a coach who is in touch with the "new NHL." Look at what that's done for St. Louis !
Heh... It's not exactly a long process...

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01-04-2012, 08:13 PM
  #86
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Of course, some people here were wishing we had locked Boucher up to a 10 year deal last May...
Dodged a bullet there. Too bad we got hit with a nuclear missile instead.

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01-04-2012, 08:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by wooten View Post
I see what you did there.

Of course, some people here were wishing we had locked Boucher up to a 10 year deal last May...

I'd sure like to see what a guy like Michel Therrien could do with this team.

Count me among the anti-tank fans. You always try your best and you always play to win. Always.
As far as Boucher goes, I'll refer to blah's post above. Dodged a bullet and got hit with a nuclear missile about sums it up.

There's a real art to a proper tank. The coaching staff needs to coach hard, keep the players playing with effort to allow them to audition for the future. The front office needs to deal enough roster players for picks and prospects so that the overall roster is not good enough to win consistently. A few key injuries can help a lot.

Edmonton has done a beautiful job of this, or maybe they really are that inept. It looks as if they are beginning a late tank with the hopes of challenging the Jackets and Ducks for 14th place in the West.

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01-04-2012, 08:59 PM
  #88
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I really don't think we are as far away as being good as people think. RJ has had a tough year, Vermette has had a tough year, same with Carter, Wis, Nash, Brass, etc. What if the RJ and Vermette of old show up next year (if they even are on the team, just saying if they are.) What if we see the 08/09 Brassard? Or at least something close? What if Nash and Carter develop the chemistry that they should have? It takes time to develop chemistry with someone on the ice, and maybe an entire offseason in Columbus will let Nash and Carter become closer and develop said chemistry.

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01-04-2012, 09:06 PM
  #89
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I really don't think we are as far away as being good as people think. RJ has had a tough year, Vermette has had a tough year, same with Carter, Wis, Nash, Brass, etc. What if the RJ and Vermette of old show up next year (if they even are on the team, just saying if they are.) What if we see the 08/09 Brassard? Or at least something close? What if Nash and Carter develop the chemistry that they should have? It takes time to develop chemistry with someone on the ice, and maybe an entire offseason in Columbus will let Nash and Carter become closer and develop said chemistry.
CBJCountryClub put you up to this?

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01-04-2012, 09:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I really don't think we are as far away as being good as people think. RJ has had a tough year, Vermette has had a tough year, same with Carter, Wis, Nash, Brass, etc. What if the RJ and Vermette of old show up next year (if they even are on the team, just saying if they are.) What if we see the 08/09 Brassard? Or at least something close? What if Nash and Carter develop the chemistry that they should have? It takes time to develop chemistry with someone on the ice, and maybe an entire offseason in Columbus will let Nash and Carter become closer and develop said chemistry.
What if we just get a new Coach?

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01-04-2012, 09:12 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I really don't think we are as far away as being good as people think. RJ has had a tough year, Vermette has had a tough year, same with Carter, Wis, Nash, Brass, etc. What if the RJ and Vermette of old show up next year (if they even are on the team, just saying if they are.) What if we see the 08/09 Brassard? Or at least something close? What if Nash and Carter develop the chemistry that they should have? It takes time to develop chemistry with someone on the ice, and maybe an entire offseason in Columbus will let Nash and Carter become closer and develop said chemistry.
Yes, these players have clearly had "down years", but i think the reason we remain so far off the radar of contending is that we can't count on our young guys to build on successes... Brass is a great example of this. Even when Umberger, Vermette and Nash have typical "years", we are still only a mid tier western conference team, at best.

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01-04-2012, 10:16 PM
  #92
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CBJCountryClub put you up to this?
Dangit, I was hoping you wouldn't find out.



But seriously,I just decided to try to think of some positives with the team. I've bashed them enough for a few weeks.

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01-04-2012, 10:18 PM
  #93
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Yes, these players have clearly had "down years", but i think the reason we remain so far off the radar of contending is that we can't count on our young guys to build on successes... Brass is a great example of this. Even when Umberger, Vermette and Nash have typical "years", we are still only a mid tier western conference team, at best.
I would agree, but in years past (Without Carter and Wis obviously.) we are in the mid to bottom area of the standings when they have typical years. Add Wis and Carter's typical years we could gain some ground and be a mid to front area of the standings (like a 7-11 area.) So, if we can add on to that while subracting unneeded players, we could get in with the right coaching and right work.

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01-04-2012, 10:29 PM
  #94
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The right amount of work is part of it.

I think Dorsett hit the nail on the head when he talked about how fragile the team is. We have more than a few players that just have losing embedded in their melons. I would love someone to present a stat of how much time an opposing team spends in our zone in the first shift after we score a goal. While the Capitals meltdown was painful, I would actually point to our game in Nashville when we scored three goals during the five minute major. When Nashville brought it within two in the second period my first thought was "uh-oh", so I know our bench was thinking the same thing. That has to stop. They are better than that, but they don't believe it.

I hate to reset and rebuild the team, but the mental aspect is why I think we have to do it.

PS: I think the Carter-Nash thing needs to be blown up as well. I think they are better separated 5-5 and placed together on the PP.

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01-04-2012, 11:35 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I would agree, but in years past (Without Carter and Wis obviously.) we are in the mid to bottom area of the standings when they have typical years. Add Wis and Carter's typical years we could gain some ground and be a mid to front area of the standings (like a 7-11 area.) So, if we can add on to that while subracting unneeded players, we could get in with the right coaching and right work.
This. This team is still not this bad on paper. I really do think we could have a Miracle Turnaround with the right changes without blowing everything up.

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01-05-2012, 06:10 AM
  #96
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This. This team is still not this bad on paper. I really do think we could have a Miracle Turnaround with the right changes without blowing everything up.
I don't think its as simple as that. The organization has tried multiple time to just tweak a few things and, while it may gain some immediate stability, it eventually tailspins. Success is sustainable, but I don't think this organization has the pieces in any major facet of its workings to do it right now.

Lets stop asking ourselves: Who's the biggest problem? And start asking ourselves: How is this fixed for the long term health of this organization on the ice?

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01-05-2012, 06:47 AM
  #97
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Lets stop asking ourselves: Who's the biggest problem? And start asking ourselves: How is this fixed for the long term health of this organization on the ice?
Well said, KBW.

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01-05-2012, 07:23 AM
  #98
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This. This team is still not this bad on paper. I really do think we could have a Miracle Turnaround with the right changes without blowing everything up.
Miracle? In the West, as it's configured, that is almost impossible even if we played as we are capable. Having said that, I agree, we aren't that far off... I'm assuming you are more looking to next season?

However, we have some money spent in area's that aren't all that wise. I have some proposals out there for out I would start addressing the roster, but as KBW as alluded to, we have other structural problems as well.

The first of which is Priest needs to resign, I would hope that right now they are in the process of finding his eventual replacement. I don't think it's as much of a long shot as we tend to fear around here.

At which point, a GM search needs to occur and a purge needs to occur. Howson has kind of put a big "fire me" sticker on his own back with firing a HoF coach (because he didn't like the fight/energy) while now holding the line on this HC (in which we are on most nights getting less fight/energy) while now blaming the players that he brought in.

Then, obviously, a coaching search needs to occur.

During the interim we need to purge contracts of players not competing and we need an interim HC. Yes, I know that would involve Howson. However he is what we have until the deadline and we need to start the purging of certain player and their contracts.

This sounds like a long process, however it can come down quickly without being rushed.

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I don't think its as simple as that. The organization has tried multiple time to just tweak a few things and, while it may gain some immediate stability, it eventually tailspins. Success is sustainable, but I don't think this organization has the pieces in any major facet of its workings to do it right now.
I don't completely buy your entire argument. I find it rather simplistic (not that, that is always bad), however the premise is reasonable.

Quote:
Lets stop asking ourselves: Who's the biggest problem? And start asking ourselves: How is this fixed for the long term health of this organization on the ice?
Not so much "biggest" as "the problem". People tend to look for a problem with a solution for whatever reason.

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01-05-2012, 09:13 AM
  #99
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Someone posted something in the trade forum that got me thinking. Imagine this next season:

Nash--Johansen--xxx
Yakupov--Carter--xxx

I don't think this team is really as bad as their record shows. I do believe Arniel is in over his head and needs to go. Howson needs to go for various reasons. IMHO his most gregious mistake this season was not addressing the goalie issue when Dekanich went down and not firing Arniel in October. There was no effort made on his part to salvage the season when it was still salvageable. This was the 3rd straight season he has been too slow to react when the season turned south.

The more I think about it the more I don't think a complete rebuild is necessary. I do believe that with this season being lost they do need to aim for the #1 pick. Move every UFA and dead weight at the deadline. Then address the front office house cleaning, get a true NHL goalie, and upgrade the defense. With these changes I think they can finally compete.

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01-05-2012, 11:39 AM
  #100
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Miracle? In the West, as it's configured, that is almost impossible even if we played as we are capable. Having said that, I agree, we aren't that far off... I'm assuming you are more looking to next season?
That would be correct. Even I'm not optimistic enough to think there's a chance this season.

I hate to admit it, but I've already got my eulogy for Howson (who I still really like and support and would love to see Make It All Better) picked out. Sigh.

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