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Jagr's come back to the NHL

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01-03-2012, 12:46 PM
  #1
BenchBrawl
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Jagr's come back to the NHL

Jagr just came back to the NHL and is going pretty well , you could say the Giroux factor is helping him a lot , but you could also say Jagr is helping Giroux being on top.

My question is , since he came back and is producing at a PPG rate , don't you think it would push him up the ranking on an all-time list? If he didn't come back , is it possible we would see his KHL years as pretty much none-factor , while now that we have proof that he's still capable of producing at the NHL level his KHL years might have more weight on his longevity card?

I noticed last year in the ATD Jagr got picked 30th , now I know some people just prefered another style of player that is easier to build around but isn't Jagr getting underrated a little bit ? ( for the record overpass team did make the finals with him so maybe he's not after all and was a steal , and when you steal in the 1st round it can make a great impact )

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01-03-2012, 12:56 PM
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SidGenoMario
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I don't think 30 games of PPG play can move you up an all-time list.

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01-03-2012, 12:59 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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He was on a definitely decline his last few years in the NHL before moving to the KHL. Perhaps playing against easy competition in the KHL allowed him to recharge himself.

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01-03-2012, 01:03 PM
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JerseyGuy276
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He was on a definitely decline his last few years in the NHL before moving to the KHL. Perhaps playing against easy competition in the KHL allowed him to recharge himself.
???

200506 New York Rangers NHL 82 54 69 123 72 3 0 1 1 2
200607 New York Rangers NHL 82 30 66 96 78 10 5 6 11 12
200708 New York Rangers NHL 82 25 46 71 58 10 5 10 15 12

Say what?

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01-03-2012, 01:06 PM
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BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
???

2005–06 New York Rangers NHL 82 54 69 123 72 3 0 1 1 2
2006–07 New York Rangers NHL 82 30 66 96 78 10 5 6 11 12
2007–08 New York Rangers NHL 82 25 46 71 58 10 5 10 15 12

Say what?
71 < 96 < 123

His play has been quite good and productive.

Hopefully he can maintain it because it would give me more ammunition for the Crosby/Ovechkin/Forsberg would score 200 pts in the 80s/90s arguments.

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01-03-2012, 01:14 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
71 < 96 < 123

His play has been quite good and productive.

Hopefully he can maintain it because it would give me more ammunition for the Crosby/Ovechkin/Forsberg would score 200 pts in the 80s/90s arguments.
I stopped debating with those kind of people a long time ago.Not worth my time and effort.

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01-03-2012, 01:19 PM
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TheGoldenJet
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Jagr is not on a PPG pace.

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01-03-2012, 01:21 PM
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BraveCanadian
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Jagr is not on a PPG pace.
Correct. He is currently .94

Glad you cleared that up for everyone.

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01-03-2012, 01:21 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Jagr is not on a PPG pace.
whatever he is close and is playing good hockey , my point still stands.

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01-03-2012, 03:05 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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as far as NHL comebacks go,

> and

but very likely > unless jagr really picks it up and goes for another five-odd years, and definitely >

an interesting question, whether the KHL years indicate at the very least good longevity for jagr.

similar questions would be asked about the WHA years for hull and howe. but it seems like for hull at least, he doesn't get as much credit as he might for being an impact player until he was 39, because those WHA years rarely get factored in when we talk about the all-time great runs of consistent excellence. even though when you think about it, bobby hull's run was about as long and impressive as bourque's.

re: jagr's legacy specifically, hard not to compare what he's doing this year to, say, dionne's first year in new york. almost a PPG pace, but dionne was outpaced by kelly kisio, just like jagr is currently behind hartnell in scoring on the flyers. there are far worse ways to end one's career, but given what jagr has already accomplished and how incredibly high he peaked, i'm not sure even a selanne-like rebirth would make much of a difference.

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01-03-2012, 03:20 PM
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it's not the same at all , Lafleur didn't play in the second best league in the world and was in retirement , and also came back for other reasons than money like proving he can still do it to himself ( from his biography in french )

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01-03-2012, 05:13 PM
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Jagr was the best player in the NHL after the first two rounds of the playoffs in his last year of the NHL. Not sure why people concluded that he was washed up after that

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01-03-2012, 05:28 PM
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Big Phil
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Originally Posted by albertGQ View Post
Jagr was the best player in the NHL after the first two rounds of the playoffs in his last year of the NHL. Not sure why people concluded that he was washed up after that
No, not washed up by any means. He actually outpointed Crosby in the NYR/PIT series 7-6 but make no mistake about it, this was Crosby and Ovechkin's NHL now. In 2005-'06 it wasn't yet and he had a Hart caliber season. In 2008 he was still a treat to watch but on the bubble of the top 10 in the game.

Still can't understand why he left, it should have never happened. No doubt Jagr can go nowhere but up now. I know I don't usually put him any worse than top 15 all-time. He beats Clarke, Trottier, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindsay, probably Esposito and makes an interesting poll against Messier.

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01-03-2012, 05:39 PM
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My impression from the games I have seen him in this season, is that he often seem a bit unmotivated and non-hard working. I think he has the skill/ability to be a top-ten scorer, but he seem to not give enough effort into it.

He looked great in the last World Championship, and if I remember correctly he was an tournement all-star.

I'd say he may be the 3rd best forward (behind Gretzky and Mario) during the last 40 years. Crosby is perhaps better as an overall player, but don't have the longevity.

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01-03-2012, 07:19 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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My impression from the games I have seen him in this season, is that he often seem a bit unmotivated and non-hard working.
Sounds like Jagr for large portions of his career.

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01-03-2012, 11:46 PM
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My impression from the games I have seen him in this season, is that he often seem a bit unmotivated and non-hard working. I think he has the skill/ability to be a top-ten scorer, but he seem to not give enough effort into it.
I doubt that most Flyers fans would agree with you.

Perhaps he isn't motivated to finish top ten and more focused on being ready for the playoffs. Remember, he's almost 40, returning to the NHL after 3 years, had the flu early in the season, and has been battling injuries. I'm not saying he doesn't ever take shifts off, but there's a fine line between laziness and efficiency.

Also, it seems like collective amnesia that Jagr had major shoulder surgery after the 05-06 season and was playing with a rookie center (after not meshing with Gomez) during his last season with the Rangers. It's not surprising his production declined some after his Pearson winning season in '06.

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01-03-2012, 11:56 PM
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it's not the same at all , Lafleur didn't play in the second best league in the world and was in retirement , and also came back for other reasons than money like proving he can still do it to himself ( from his biography in french )
You think Jagr came back to the NHL after 3 years... for money??

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01-04-2012, 12:58 AM
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TAnnala
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???

200506 New York Rangers NHL 82 54 69 123 72 3 0 1 1 2
200607 New York Rangers NHL 82 30 66 96 78 10 5 6 11 12
200708 New York Rangers NHL 82 25 46 71 58 10 5 10 15 12

Say what?
You wont call that a decline?

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01-04-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
My impression from the games I have seen him in this season, is that he often seem a bit unmotivated and non-hard working. I think he has the skill/ability to be a top-ten scorer, but he seem to not give enough effort into it.

He looked great in the last World Championship, and if I remember correctly he was an tournement all-star.

I'd say he may be the 3rd best forward (behind Gretzky and Mario) during the last 40 years. Crosby is perhaps better as an overall player, but don't have the longevity.
Jagr is giving effort but his motivation is not to win the Art Ross himself but to try and help Giroux win it and help the Flyers get on a role for the playoffs.

Jagr is preparing himself for the playoffs. In the playoffs (if healthy) you guys will see jus how dominant Jagr can still be.

If pacing himself is bad at age 39-40 then

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01-04-2012, 09:41 AM
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You wont call that a decline?
It is a statistically decline but in 2006-07 Jagr had surgery on his left (shooting) shoulder and never really looked the same as he did the previous season. 96 Pts at age 35 with a surgically repaired shoulder is pretty darn good.

In 2007-08 he played with different centermen every night including being shuffled with 4th liners at one point and Nylander was gone. He didn't get a full time centerman until the last month of the regular season, that centerman was Dubinsky a rookie then.

People just look at his regular season but then overlook his playoffs that year. His 1.50 PPG in that playoffs ties Malkin for the best PPG in the playoffs post-lockout (with 4 games played or more as criteria).

I for one believe that if Jagr had resigned in the NHL the following season instead of going to the KHL that he would have most likely returned to being a 90 + Pts player.

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01-04-2012, 09:51 AM
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Sounds like Jagr for large portions of his career.
... and yet he still has over 1300 games played, over 650 goals, over 1600 Pts, 2 Stanley Cups, 1 Hart, 5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearsons, over 160 Pts in the playoffs, Olympic Gold, 2 World Championship Golds, and the list goes on and on.

What are you trying to imply? That if Jagr tried harder that he would be better than most players in the top 10?

Jagr played efficiently most of his career. There's a difference between not trying and pacing yourself. Jagr used to pace himself a lot. Even during his Art Ross years he did that.

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01-04-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
... and yet he still has over 1300 games played, over 650 goals, over 1600 Pts, 2 Stanley Cups, 1 Hart, 5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearsons, over 160 Pts in the playoffs, Olympic Gold, 2 World Championship Golds, and the list goes on and on.

What are you trying to imply? That if Jagr tried harder that he would be better than most players in the top 10?

Jagr played efficiently most of his career. There's a difference between not trying and pacing yourself. Jagr used to pace himself a lot. Even during his Art Ross years he did that.
When Jagr was a teen, one of his coaches would tell him at the beginning of games, "score 5 or 6 goals and then take it easy."

But you're right, most successful players (especially in the playoffs) pace themselves. This is a marathon, not a sprint. For top players on top teams, a game in mid-February is almost meaningless when compared to the REAL games come April through June.

Jagr is one of the all time greats and a first ballot hall of famer. A champion many times over with accolades only very few can match.

That said, much of the criticisms against him is warranted. He IS moody and can exhibit a surly attitude. Petr Svoboda nearly kicked his ass in Nagano for acting like a whiny *****.

All in all though, a joy to watch.

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01-04-2012, 01:21 PM
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If he has another season of ~PPG then it would certainly add to his resume. Enough to declare him better than others? No. His spot within the top 30 all time is already highly debated, and I don't think one season will change that much.

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01-04-2012, 01:24 PM
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livewell68
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If he has another season of ~PPG then it would certainly add to his resume. Enough to declare him better than others? No. His spot within the top 30 all time is already highly debated, and I don't think one season will change that much.
Jagr was ranked # 37 in 1998 on THN top 100 players. That was before he even won the Hart and won 3 more Art Ross trophies and 3 Pearsons. His status has only gotten better since then.

He's easily a top 30 player, he's easily a top 20 player and he has a claim for top 15-10 so I don't see how another PPG season can't make him rise up the ranks.

Jagr's only knock has been not being able to lead a team to the Cup, what if he helps the Flyers win the Cup and gets awarded the Conn Smythe in the process? Then what?

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01-04-2012, 02:14 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
... and yet he still has over 1300 games played, over 650 goals, over 1600 Pts, 2 Stanley Cups, 1 Hart, 5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearsons, over 160 Pts in the playoffs, Olympic Gold, 2 World Championship Golds, and the list goes on and on.

What are you trying to imply? That if Jagr tried harder that he would be better than most players in the top 10?

Jagr played efficiently most of his career. There's a difference between not trying and pacing yourself. Jagr used to pace himself a lot. Even during his Art Ross years he did that.
Honestly, yes. If Jagr was a more motivated player, he would be right up there with Jean Beliveau, Bobby Hull, and Maurice Richard as the best forward ever not named Wayne, Mario, or Gordie. Instead, he's usually debated along with the Lafleurs and Espositos of hockey history.

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