Er... you do of course realise that most players have a hard time putting up points when played outside the top six and with less PP time?
Exactly, 100% correct. That is why the last 5 or 6 years when people have been praising Horcoff for his 17 goal 50 point years it was pretty funny. That kind of production with all the offensive advantages in the world. Tell people that without the gold plated minutes and linemates Horcoff was maybe a 30 point player and people scoffed. That is also why it has been funny watching Horcoff get patted on the head year after year and seeing guys like Cogliano, Penner in the mact era getting just blasted for non production playing 3rd line minutes with 3rd line linemates.
Exactly, 100% correct. That is why the last 5 or 6 years when people have been praising Horcoff for his 17 goal 50 point years it was pretty funny. That kind of production with all the offensive advantages in the world. Tell people that without the gold plated minutes and linemates Horcoff was maybe a 30 point player and people scoffed. That is also why it has been funny watching Horcoff get patted on the head year after year and seeing guys like Cogliano, Penner in the mact era getting just blasted for non production playing 3rd line minutes with 3rd line linemates.
Well there's a difference between those players.
Penner got crap because he's streaky and looks lazy and uninspired half the time.
Gogliano got crap because he was expected to become a scorer, but didn't pan out.
Horcoff gets crap because of his contract. Take him for what he is on a team that doesn't even spend to the cap, and I'm sure you'll start appreciating him more. It isn't so hard actually.
Penner got crap because he's streaky and looks lazy and uninspired half the time.
Gogliano got crap because he was expected to become a scorer, but didn't pan out.
Horcoff gets crap because of his contract. Take him for what he is on a team that doesn't even spend to the cap, and I'm sure you'll start appreciating him more. It isn't so hard actually.
Hard to take Horcoff for what he is when he's being used as what he isn't.
I understand the need to win face/offs on the pp but nobody is going to get any better if we are constantly falling back on the same guy. Now is the time to give our younger C's a chance to take the lumps and work on such a skill, not a couple years from now.
Penner got crap because he's streaky and looks lazy and uninspired half the time.
Gogliano got crap because he was expected to become a scorer, but didn't pan out.
Horcoff gets crap because of his contract. Take him for what he is on a team that doesn't even spend to the cap, and I'm sure you'll start appreciating him more. It isn't so hard actually.
Penner, 10 times the offensive player than Horcoff should have had the playing time for an offensive roll. Only after Penner was given that top line position and pp time did he have the big year. Even in the year penner was really dogged by the coaches he scored something like 17 goals and 4 or 5 gw.
cogliano very rarely had the chance to play on top lines, he failed offensively but now worse than Horcoff. You are totally incorrect, like most other Horcoff apologists when you finger the contract as the whole source of Horcoffitis. That is one of many issues with him and certainly not the #1 problem with him.
Penner, 10 times the offensive player than Horcoff should have had the playing time for an offensive roll. Only after Penner was given that top line position and pp time did he have the big year. Even in the year penner was really dogged by the coaches he scored something like 17 goals and 4 or 5 gw.
cogliano very rarely had the chance to play on top lines, he failed offensively but now worse than Horcoff. You are totally incorrect, like most other Horcoff apologists when you finger the contract as the whole source of Horcoffitis. That is one of many issues with him and certainly not the #1 problem with him.
The way I see it the contract is the single most important reason Horcoffitis infected this board in the first place. The way people were talking about that contract anchoring the team for years, you'd think they were paying him max salary for ten years. After that things have snowballed to where we are now, as if that contract put us in this position mostly by itself.
Of course Horcoff isn't a top-line centre. He might have been playing like one the year he got that contract, but Lowe rolled the dice on a player coming off injury. In hindsight it was a stupid risk to take, but they wanted to lock him up and a lot of people were pretty happy with the contract at the time.
And for the record, Penner is not 10x the offensive player Horcoff is. He's clearly better when he's on, but he has issues that Horcoff doesn't have, such as taking nights off and disappearing altogether when he doesn't score or hit.
Cogs got lost in the shuffle, sure, but he still didn't pan out the way we all hoped back in '08 and part of it is clearly his lack of skill and hockey IQ. Fans still got on him for it.
The problem with Shawn Horcoff isn't Shawn Horcoff the hockey player, not even Shawn Horcoff the captain, but Shawn Horcoff the top-line player. Well guess what, we drafted this kid back in June who looks like a fairly good prospect. Horc isn't even the offensive go-to guy at centre anymore.
Penner, 10 times the offensive player than Horcoff should have had the playing time for an offensive roll. Only after Penner was given that top line position and pp time did he have the big year. Even in the year penner was really dogged by the coaches he scored something like 17 goals and 4 or 5 gw.
cogliano very rarely had the chance to play on top lines, he failed offensively but now worse than Horcoff. You are totally incorrect, like most other Horcoff apologists when you finger the contract as the whole source of Horcoffitis. That is one of many issues with him and certainly not the #1 problem with him.
I think the contract is the biggest problem. Not only can most fans not get over it, but management and coaches seem to not be willing to cut his minutes BECAUSE of the contract. At this time in his career, Horcoff is ideally a third line center, or a below average second line center. I think everyone agrees on this. But people still can't seem to look past his contract because he is paid like a top liner, and everyone still thinks he should be producing like a top liner. That's not his game anymore, he had a couple of seasons where it looked like it was, but it isn't. Everyone (including coaches) need to realize that Horc is a 2nd/3rd liner right now and put the high expectations aside.
Horcoff has a modified no move next season I think. He will submit a list of 10 teams this summer (I recall reading this somewhere). His 6M salary in 2012-2013 will still likely mean they can't move him.
I do think several teams will be interested in summer 2013. His salary will be 4M, then 3M, with a 5.5M cap hit.
Horcoff has a NMC this season AND next season as well. The earliest he can be moved anywhere is 2013/2014.
From Capgeek:
KNOWN CLAUSES: NMC (through 2012-13); NTC (for 2013-14, starting July 1, 2013, player can provide list of 10 teams to which he will accept a trade); no NMC/NTC for 2014-15.
There will be plenty of time to run Horcoff out of town after we get rid of Hemksy and Snowpants.
Very true, dat. Dump the no-brainers (expiring contracts) first. Unfortunately with Horcoff, we will have to continue to ingest the cod liver oil until the bottle is nearly done. No amount of complaining will change it.
Penner, 10 times the offensive player than Horcoff should have had the playing time for an offensive roll. Only after Penner was given that top line position and pp time did he have the big year. Even in the year penner was really dogged by the coaches he scored something like 17 goals and 4 or 5 gw.
cogliano very rarely had the chance to play on top lines, he failed offensively but now worse than Horcoff. You are totally incorrect, like most other Horcoff apologists when you finger the contract as the whole source of Horcoffitis. That is one of many issues with him and certainly not the #1 problem with him.
Oh please. I'm not going to disagree about Horcoff, but the bolded's are just silly. Penner is getting the chance to play on a very talented and deep team, and has done squat, just like he did in his 19 game audition last year. And all of this in a contract year when he should be pumped. TWO goals and EIGHT points this year, after scoring TWO goals in 19 games last year, and being benched for most of the playoffs for indifference. The Kings can't find any takers for him this year, or he'd be gone in a heartbeat. What a plug.
As for Cogliano, he is what he is. A small fast guy with no hands that couldn't win a draw if his life depended on it, and gets knocked on his ass more than a fragile little old lady at a boxing day sale. This year he gets to rub shoulders with some veteran stars and so far is projected to have his worst season, statistically by far. Way to go.
Trash Horcoff if you must, but you need to set your sights a tad higher for his competition if you really want to do a good job at it.
Oh please. I'm not going to disagree about Horcoff, but the bolded's are just silly. Penner is getting the chance to play on a very talented and deep team, and has done squat, just like he did in his 19 game audition last year. And all of this in a contract year when he should be pumped. TWO goals and EIGHT points this year, after scoring TWO goals in 19 games last year, and being benched for most of the playoffs for indifference. The Kings can't find any takers for him this year, or he'd be gone in a heartbeat. What a plug.
Once again you totally and utterly fail to miss the point of a post. The Penner post has nothing to do with the kings, it has everything to do with his time here.
As for Cogliano, he is what he is. A small fast guy with no hands that couldn't win a draw if his life depended on it, and gets knocked on his ass more than a fragile little old lady at a boxing day sale. This year he gets to rub shoulders with some veteran stars and so far is projected to have his worst season, statistically by far. Way to go.
Trash Horcoff if you must, but you need to set your sights a tad higher for his competition if you really want to do a good job at it.
Ah at least you are coming around on horcoff eh? The whole point of my post was that Horcoff was and is treated in one way and the other players were treated in a totally different manner. Horcoff handed prime minutes, prime pp time, patted on the head, made captain all the while playing just like he has this year. The other players blasted into oblivion which is which you just did, proving my point for me.
Ah at least you are coming around on horcoff eh? The whole point of my post was that Horcoff was and is treated in one way and the other players were treated in a totally different manner. Horcoff handed prime minutes, prime pp time, patted on the head, made captain all the while playing just like he has this year. The other players blasted into oblivion which is which you just did, proving my point for me.
The difference is that Horcoff has other assets to his game. If Penner and Cogliano don't produce points, they basically don't contribute anything. Horcoff is still a pretty valuable player with his two-way game, faceoffs and leadership.
Oh please. I'm not going to disagree about Horcoff, but the bolded's are just silly. Penner is getting the chance to play on a very talented and deep team, and has done squat, just like he did in his 19 game audition last year. And all of this in a contract year when he should be pumped. TWO goals and EIGHT points this year, after scoring TWO goals in 19 games last year, and being benched for most of the playoffs for indifference. The Kings can't find any takers for him this year, or he'd be gone in a heartbeat. What a plug.
Once again you totally and utterly fail to miss the point of a post. The Penner post has nothing to do with the kings, it has everything to do with his time here.
As for Cogliano, he is what he is. A small fast guy with no hands that couldn't win a draw if his life depended on it, and gets knocked on his ass more than a fragile little old lady at a boxing day sale. This year he gets to rub shoulders with some veteran stars and so far is projected to have his worst season, statistically by far. Way to go.
Trash Horcoff if you must, but you need to set your sights a tad higher for his competition if you really want to do a good job at it.
Ah at least you are coming around on horcoff eh? The whole point of my post was that Horcoff was and is treated in one way and the other players were treated in a totally different manner. Horcoff handed prime minutes, prime pp time, patted on the head, made captain all the while playing just like he has this year. The other players blasted into oblivion which is which you just did, proving my point for me.
No, it is you that is completely missing the point. Never said I was happy with Horcoff. But your fixation and personal vendetta is tiring. Try trashing a few others as well just to give us all a break. Spread the love. All the aforementioned traded players were on expiring contracts.The ONLY thing keeping Horcoff here is his contract. You know it, I know it and everyone else knows it, so get over it.
As for Penner, his performance this year and end of last year has everything to do with it. You were the one saying he only had the one year to play prime minutes with top players while here, which is ******** anyhow. And now with the Kings, no one can dispute they have a much more talented, deeper team where he should be thriving, to make your point. He's getting his chance to prove your point about him being 10 X better and more, and he's done nothing with it. While with the Oilers, other than one fluke year, he was subpar, but of course it was all the coaches fault. Now, he has other coaches, and he's even performing worse, as if that was possible. Try again.
Last edited by Stoneman89: 01-04-2012 at 02:02 PM.
The difference is that Horcoff has other assets to his game. If Penner and Cogliano don't produce points, they basically don't contribute anything. Horcoff is still a pretty valuable player with his two-way game, faceoffs and leadership.
Horcoff has been barely adequate at any part of his game for a long time now. The myth that he is good on draws and a good defensive player needs to stop being put out there. It just isnt true.
I cant speak to the leader part because Im not in the room. Horcoff has gotten minutes by default his whole career. Our management has been too stupid to do anything about it until last June.
The ONLY thing keeping Horcoff here is his contract. You know it, I know it and everyone else knows it, so get over it.
As for Penner, his performance this year and end of last year has everything to do wtih it. You were the one saying he only had the one year to play prime minutes with top players while here, which is ******** anyhow. And now with the Kings, no one can dispute they have a much more talented, deeper team where he should be thriving, to make your point. He's getting his chance to prove your point about him being 10 X better and more, and he's done nothing with it. Try again.
The Kings have been an offensive desert. They are last in the league in goals for. Terrible defensive system forced on them by Murray. Doughty has eight points in his last nine games so perhaps that is changing a bit under Sutter, but they still seem to be having problems scoring. Everyone, not just Penner.
The difference is that Horcoff has other assets to his game. If Penner and Cogliano don't produce points, they basically don't contribute anything. Horcoff is still a pretty valuable player with his two-way game, faceoffs and leadership.
Valuable 2 way play and faceoffs? Are you sure about that?
2009-2010: -29, 46.4% on the dot
2010-2011: -1, 48.3%
2011-2012: -11, 48.2%
Leadership? As the TOI leader the last 5 years, we have made the playoffs 0 times. He does nothing on the ice that shows me leadership. When someone hits a kid, he's checking out his skate laces and skating away. He's the king of the fly by stick wave. Won't initiate any contact of any sort.
And for someone who has been getting close to 20:00/game including boatloads of PP1 time, his offensive output has been pathetic. He needs to be relegated to the 3rd/4th line and taken off the PP. Give him some PK time and the 3rd/4th line minutes at ES.
Very true, dat. Dump the no-brainers (expiring contracts) first. Unfortunately with Horcoff, we will have to continue to ingest the cod liver oil until the bottle is nearly done. No amount of complaining will change it.
The Kings have been an offensive desert. They are last in the league in goals for. Terrible defensive system forced on them by Murray. Doughty has eight points in his last nine games so perhaps that is changing a bit under Sutter, but they still seem to be having problems scoring. Everyone, not just Penner.
Not disputing they aren't struggling. But he's sitting a very distant 10th on the Kings in scoring, amoungst such talented offensive juggernauts as Matt Greene and Willi Mitchell. For what they gave up and what they expected from him......pathetic any way you slice it.
Horcoff has been barely adequate at any part of his game for a long time now. The myth that he is good on draws and a good defensive player needs to stop being put out there. It just isnt true.
I cant speak to the leader part because Im not in the room. Horcoff has gotten minutes by default his whole career. Our management has been too stupid to do anything about it until last June.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23
Valuable 2 way play and faceoffs? Are you sure about that?
2009-2010: -29, 46.4% on the dot
2010-2011: -1, 48.3%
2011-2012: -11, 48.2%
Leadership? As the TOI leader the last 5 years, we have made the playoffs 0 times. He does nothing on the ice that shows me leadership. When someone hits a kid, he's checking out his skate laces and skating away. He's the king of the fly by stick wave. Won't initiate any contact of any sort.
And for someone who has been getting close to 20:00/game including boatloads of PP1 time, his offensive output has been pathetic. He needs to be relegated to the 3rd/4th line and taken off the PP. Give him some PK time and the 3rd/4th line minutes at ES.
I think it's largely because he's been overworked over this timespan. I don't think anyone is arguing that he is the player he was when he earned that contract.
The point I'm trying to get across is that Horcoff is the kind of guy who will get tons of crap whenever he has a performance like this one against Buffalo, but when he quietly has a solid game nobody notices or cares. This is typical scapegoating from a fanbase and it starts with the contract.
Horc isn't awesome, but I honestly don't have a problem with him on my team at this point in time. If he's still here when this team ought to be a cap team again (i.e. around the time his NMC expires), then I'll start worrying.
I think it's largely because he's been overworked over this timespan. I don't think anyone is arguing that he is the player he was when he earned that contract.
The point I'm trying to get across is that Horcoff is the kind of guy who will get tons of crap whenever he has a performance like this one against Buffalo, but when he quietly has a solid game nobody notices or cares. This is typical scapegoating from a fanbase and it starts with the contract.
Horc isn't awesome, but I honestly don't have a problem with him on my team at this point in time. If he's still here when this team ought to be a cap team again (i.e. around the time his NMC expires), then I'll start worrying.
I agree with this. Horcoff has been beaten down over the last few years and that was mostly due to the lack of depth at Centre.
Some of the moves from Tambo/Lowe over the past few years left this team exposed and Horcoff payed the price with his injuries.
He will likely never be the same player that signed that contract but thats not to say he can't still be a useful player in the right role.
I agree with this. Horcoff has been beaten down over the last few years and that was mostly due to the lack of depth at Centre.
Some of the moves from Tambo/Lowe over the past few years left this team exposed and Horcoff payed the price with his injuries.
He will likely never be the same player that signed that contract but thats not to say he can't still be a useful player in the right role.
You can't separate the man from his contract. His cap hit makes him nigh useless to this team (and any other), especially since he can't hit/score/win a draw/play the PK. No meaningful or consistent contributions + insane cap hit = detriment.
The difference is that Horcoff has other assets to his game. If Penner and Cogliano don't produce points, they basically don't contribute anything. Horcoff is still a pretty valuable player with his two-way game, faceoffs and leadership.
These other assets are massively overrated in my opinion. He has been an under 50% FO man the last three years. He is a high minus player and really doesn't have a great two way game as his offense comes from inflated pp time and playing with better players. I also think he is not a great leader for a variety of reasons. He's not a huge troublemaker or anything but when I think captain material, leader of a bunch of young up and coming players I don't think of horcoff.
We differ in opinion on those aspects, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Oh please. I'm not going to disagree about Horcoff, but the bolded's are just silly. Penner is getting the chance to play on a very talented and deep team, and has done squat, just like he did in his 19 game audition last year. And all of this in a contract year when he should be pumped. TWO goals and EIGHT points this year, after scoring TWO goals in 19 games last year, and being benched for most of the playoffs for indifference. The Kings can't find any takers for him this year, or he'd be gone in a heartbeat. What a plug.
As for Cogliano, he is what he is. A small fast guy with no hands that couldn't win a draw if his life depended on it, and gets knocked on his ass more than a fragile little old lady at a boxing day sale. This year he gets to rub shoulders with some veteran stars and so far is projected to have his worst season, statistically by far. Way to go.
Trash Horcoff if you must, but you need to set your sights a tad higher for his competition if you really want to do a good job at it.
Agreed.
Beerfish also not mentioning that one of the reasons Penner would have as many goals as he did was his office in the crease. If this is a players assignment they score more goals than otherwise JUST on the basis of that assignment. If they have a modicum of talent, like Smyth they score handily with the assignment. Penner here didn't come anywhere close to matching Smyth's usual contribution here and in a virtually identical capacity.
Additionally penner didn't hit as much as he should've, took nights off, and didn't really bring much big body play into the equation with the exception of his coming out year.
Penner has arguably been a bigger contractual waste of money than Horcoff has been.
The difference is that Horcoff has other assets to his game. If Penner and Cogliano don't produce points, they basically don't contribute anything. Horcoff is still a pretty valuable player with his two-way game, faceoffs and leadership.
What other assets does he have? Face offs, well he is not very good there, PK again no better than the other PKers in-fact Jones, Lander, Petrell, Smyth, Belanger are as good or better. Cant/wont hit not even by accident,can't pass, cant receive a pass, shoots like a 12 year old, cant win a puck battle, play dies when the puck comes near him. I don't care what the contract is it could be one mill a year and my opinion would be the same, He is honestly just a bad hockey player. I bet if you could put him on waivers and then recallable at half the price I bet he would still clear.
I'm not going to disagree about Horcoff, but the bolded's are just silly. Penner is getting the chance to play on a very talented and deep team, and has done squat, just like he did in his 19 game audition last year. And all of this in a contract year when he should be pumped. TWO goals and EIGHT points this year, after scoring TWO goals in 19 games last year, and being benched for most of the playoffs for indifference. The Kings can't find any takers for him this year, or he'd be gone in a heartbeat. What a plug.
