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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part V

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01-18-2012, 01:48 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
How about Fehr and Antropov for a bag of pucks.
Done

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01-18-2012, 01:49 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I don't think that deal makes sense from a couple of perspectives:

a) Hamilton isn't a proven NHLer. His upside is higher than Enstrom's, no question. But who knows if he'll achieve it.

b) If Enstrom is going to be used as trade bait (obviously presumptious at this stage), I'd like the return to be something addressing a primary need. Namely, a lack of top end guys up front.

And then there's the most obvious issue, which is that I highly doubt Boston would want to mortgage a future piece like Hamilton for Enstrom.
I agree with what you are saying:

A) I'm not saying Enstrom is trade bait, just responding to the Bruins fan
B) Like you, it would be preferable if he was traded that the return fill a need (like top 6 forward).

However, IF, and that's a big IF because I don't think they (the Bruins) consider it either, IF the Bruins want to add Enstrom for 2 more cup runs, I would think they would prefer to lose someone that is not on their roster (Hamilton) opposed to a guy that is on their roster (Lucic) and they would want for the cup run anyway.

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01-18-2012, 01:53 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I think you are rather harsh here. Everyone wants to build a team like the Bruins, but they have some guys on STEALS of contracts (Chara, Thomas, Seguin(ELC but still), Krejci, Lucic), got lucky with Kessel trade (Seguin), and gained alot of cap room due to the unfortunate Savard incident. This is a unique situation, most teams will never be able to pull that off.

I do agree with you that a player like Nash is not who I give that kind of money too. Kane is not either, IMO. If I am paying somebody more than 6-7 million, I not only expect that player to be very effective, but he MUST make the players around him better. That is my #1 thing. Tunnel vision solo snipers like Kane and Nash do not do that. They are great players, but they do not elevate the player's around them. A Crosby, Kopitar, Getzlaf, St. Louis, Thornton, Kesler, Datsyuk, Doughty, Lidstrom, Chara these are the type of guys I am willing to go 6-7+ million with. Those guys play both ends (all great defensively), are great players and make unreal plays by themselves but more importantly is that they elevate the players around them. Just being close to those guys makes others at very least look better than they are. One-dimensional snipers like Kane, Nash, Gaborik(as much as I hate to say it), hell even Stamkos and Malkin tread close to this category, not the type of guys I splurge on. Pay very well, but not commit the bankroll to them.\

My buddy and I were having this argument on the way to school this morning. He said Kane would get 6.5+ million per season in his next deal. I made the exact argument I did just above and said he would not. I figure 6-7 years (Kane gives up 1-2 years UFA) at 5 million per season is lots for a tunnel vision, one dimensional sniper like Kane.
How am I being harsh?

Your second paragraph was basically my entire point. Nash is not the type of guy I would give that much money to.

I also only used the Bruins as an example. I realize that they had a lot of favorable situations that have allowed them to build the roster the way they have. I'm just trying to use them as an example of what I would TRY to do. Instead of say what the Lightning tried to do when they spent a huge portion of their cap on 3 players.

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01-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #304
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Done
Yes, so we can tank now. Winners mentality there.

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01-18-2012, 01:58 PM
  #305
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How am I being harsh?

Your second paragraph was basically my entire point. Nash is not the type of guy I would give that much money to.

I also only used the Bruins as an example. I realize that they had a lot of favorable situations that have allowed them to build the roster the way they have. I'm just trying to use them as an example of what I would TRY to do. Instead of say what the Lightning tried to do when they spent a huge portion of their cap on 3 players.
Maybe just a matter of degrees? You are saying your only giving 7.5+ to a Messier/Yzerman, those are perhaps not generational players, but at least top 3-4 players in there generation. I have a list of 12-20 guys that could probably be there or very close to that level.

I do agree that the Bruins is ideal, but not gonna lie if we can land a Kopitar/Getzlaf type center, even if it costs 7.5-8 million a year, I'm on board.

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01-18-2012, 02:02 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Maybe just a matter of degrees? You are saying your only giving 7.5+ to a Messier/Yzerman, those are perhaps not generational players, but at least top 3-4 players in there generation. I have a list of 12-20 guys that could probably be there or very close to that level.

I do agree that the Bruins is ideal, but not gonna lie if we can land a Kopitar/Getzlaf type center, even if it costs 7.5-8 million a year, I'm on board.
Ok, gotcha. I thought you were implying that I was being harsh to the other poster....

I see what you are saying. Maybe that was a little high (Messier and Yzerman).

Honestly, I agree with you in regards to guys like Getzlaf,Crosby, Thorton, etc. I probably don't agree with all of your list, but that's a matter of degrees. I think we are both on the same page though that there are only a select group of guys you give max money to, and they have to bring ALOT to the table.

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01-18-2012, 02:06 PM
  #307
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That is overpayment for Lucic. And to a team that wouldn't even get you full value for Enstrom.
I agree with you on the second part. Boston's defensive depth probably means a less-than-enticing offer for Enstrom.

How is that overpayment for Lucic? You're getting a guy that is 4 years younger, is already a proven 60-70 point player, played a key role in a Cup win, and most importantly, adds skill, size, and toughness to a top 6 that sorely lacks it. Enstrom is a coveted asset as a skilled offensive dman, but IMO the Jets have the luxury of having another guy (Byfuglien) with that skillset. Only Enstrom has a tradeable contract.

Out of curiousity, what would you consider a good return for Enstrom? I understand you're high on him, Duke. I'm not advocating that we trade him. But in the hypothetical event that he states he won't re-sign in Winnipeg, what would you consider fair value coming back the other way? Any player, any team.

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01-18-2012, 02:08 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Yes, so we can tank now. Winners mentality there.
when did I say tank?

I guess I should have used the

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01-18-2012, 02:09 PM
  #309
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Of the UFAs Winnipeg has in the summer,
Slater, Wellwood, Stapleton, and Glass I think should be resigned.
I would hope we could resign Flood, Jones and Oduya if the price is right.

Kane, Pavvy, and Postma should be signed as RFA imo.

Of the UFAs in the NHL in the summer. I would be in favor of
Dennis Wideman, Ryan Suter (of course), Tim Gleason on D (if we even need any)
David Jones, Chris Kelly and Teemu on F.

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01-18-2012, 02:11 PM
  #310
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Anytime I see Stuart I always think no first. I love having that guy on the team. Of all of the guys we have, I can't see a reason to deal him. He's one of the few truly physical guys we have back there. He seems to be the only one stepping up to fight, and he blocks shots like he gets a bonus for them. That, and his contract is a steal in my mind for all those things that he is bringing.

To me, it would take a huge overpayment for us to deal him because we don't have someone to replace what he brings.

I just don't think Read and Bourdon bring enough to offset Stuarts loss.
Agree. Stuart is exactly who I want on the Flyers and his style is what they are lacking. That being said, it should take a huge overpayment to get the Jets to move him, so it won't happen.

I know Bogosian fits the same description, but maybe JVR, Carle, Read for Bogo and Slater ???

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01-18-2012, 02:29 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Agree. Stuart is exactly who I want on the Flyers and his style is what they are lacking. That being said, it should take a huge overpayment to get the Jets to move him, so it won't happen.

I know Bogosian fits the same description, but maybe JVR, Carle, Read for Bogo and Slater ???
Due to Carle and Slater both being UFA't this year, your proposal is basically Bogo for JVR and Read.

I really like Bogosian, so it would be easy for me to say no to that. I hope Bogosian is here for a long time.

I like what JVR brings and wouldn't mind him on the Jets, but I wouldn't trade Bogosian for him.

We especially can't trade Bogosian before we know what's going to happen with Enstrom anyway.

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01-18-2012, 02:29 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I agree with you on the second part. Boston's defensive depth probably means a less-than-enticing offer for Enstrom.

How is that overpayment for Lucic? You're getting a guy that is 4 years younger, is already a proven 60-70 point player, played a key role in a Cup win, and most importantly, adds skill, size, and toughness to a top 6 that sorely lacks it. Enstrom is a coveted asset as a skilled offensive dman, but IMO the Jets have the luxury of having another guy (Byfuglien) with that skillset. Only Enstrom has a tradeable contract.

Out of curiousity, what would you consider a good return for Enstrom? I understand you're high on him, Duke. I'm not advocating that we trade him. But in the hypothetical event that he states he won't re-sign in Winnipeg, what would you consider fair value coming back the other way? Any player, any team.
Because Enstrom's offensive output is very close to Lucic's. Enstrom brings a lot to a team. He is one of the best PP QB in the league, one of the best offensive defensemen in the league, and brings a very good two-way game. I think over time when you see more and more of him, you'll see how much he can bring to a team.

As far as the return? I think we would obviously want a top 6 RW or right handed center and a defenseman back to make sure we can fill out that spot. I feel Enstrom's value is much higher then most people think.

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01-18-2012, 02:31 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Crazed Fan View Post
Of the UFAs Winnipeg has in the summer,
Slater, Wellwood, Stapleton, and Glass I think should be resigned.
I would hope we could resign Flood, Jones and Oduya if the price is right.

Kane, Pavvy, and Postma should be signed as RFA imo.

Of the UFAs in the NHL in the summer. I would be in favor of
Dennis Wideman, Ryan Suter (of course), Tim Gleason on D (if we even need any)
David Jones, Chris Kelly and Teemu on F.
Swapping Gleason for Oduya would be a nice upgrade. Price might be a little high.

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01-18-2012, 02:48 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Crazed Fan View Post
Of the UFAs Winnipeg has in the summer,
Slater, Wellwood, Stapleton, and Glass I think should be resigned.
I would hope we could resign Flood, Jones and Oduya if the price is right.

Kane, Pavvy, and Postma should be signed as RFA imo.

Of the UFAs in the NHL in the summer. I would be in favor of
Dennis Wideman, Ryan Suter (of course), Tim Gleason on D (if we even need any)
David Jones, Chris Kelly and Teemu on F.
For the RIGHT price I wouldn't mind:

Forwards:

Tuomo Ruutu
Andrei Kostitsyn (I know, I know, I don't really like the player, but we NEED some forward depth. And besides UFA's, our only hope is with Scheifele and Cormier next year.
Mikhail Grabovski (See above)

Defensemen: (without knowing what happens to Oduya and possibly Hainsey, it's difficult to know what if any our needs are)

Some D that would be good though:

Beauchemin
Carle
Gleason
Boychuck
Jurcina

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01-18-2012, 03:02 PM
  #315
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Enstrom (plus Fehr, if you want to add him) is overpayment for Lucic? not in a million years, in my opinion.

I'd take Lucic in this deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

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01-18-2012, 03:07 PM
  #316
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Enstrom (plus Fehr, if you want to add him) is overpayment for Lucic? not in a million years, in my opinion.

I'd take Lucic in this deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Me too. Enstrom is a special type of player, but Lucic is as well. He is younger and a physical force. He has grit, and sandpaper, something we (and every team) could use in our top 6.

Boston would never do that deal.

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01-18-2012, 03:18 PM
  #317
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Enstrom (plus Fehr, if you want to add him) is overpayment for Lucic? not in a million years, in my opinion.

I'd take Lucic in this deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Well here's one way you can look at it. Lucic finished 10th in scoring among LWings last year. Enstrom finished tied for 5th among defensemen, and there's more defensemen then LWs. But that's just points. Both guys bring a lot more on the ice that you have to see the game to get a good idea of them.

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01-18-2012, 03:19 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Well here's one way you can look at it. Lucic finished 10th in scoring among LWings last year. Enstrom finished tied for 5th among defensemen, and there's more defensemen then LWs. But that's just points. Both guys bring a lot more on the ice that you have to see the game to get a good idea of them.
I'd still take Lucic. In a heartbeat.

Perhaps though, that's just me.

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01-18-2012, 03:22 PM
  #319
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I'd still take Lucic. In a heartbeat.

Perhaps though, that's just me.
i am in agreement with you G

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01-18-2012, 03:26 PM
  #320
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I asked the Bruins board what Enstrom would fetch from their team, and they offered up a 2012 First round pick, Caron, and Hamilton.

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01-18-2012, 03:27 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Because Enstrom's offensive output is very close to Lucic's. Enstrom brings a lot to a team. He is one of the best PP QB in the league, one of the best offensive defensemen in the league, and brings a very good two-way game. I think over time when you see more and more of him, you'll see how much he can bring to a team.
So is Buff's.

Again, this trade pre-supposes the notion that Winnipeg has a surplus of defensemen and a dearth of forwards. Regardless of how you feel about Enstrom, you simply can't deny this. I'd be confident placing our D corps in the top half of the league. Our forwards? I have a hard time not placing them bottom 5.

In order to get any kind of F of value, you essentially have 3 D you can trade; Bogo, Buff, or Toby. Bogosian is as close to an untouchable player as there is on this roster, and I wouldn't let him go for anything less than a ridiculous overpayment. IMO he's still just scratching the surface of his potential, you can't get a fair return for him. Buff's contract makes him a non-tradeable asset. Enstrom? Very tradeable contract, value hasn't really diminished despite his slow start, skillset as a puck-rushing dman makes him easily the most coveted (read: overpayed for) type of player on the trade market.

Can you now see this from my perspective?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
As far as the return? I think we would obviously want a top 6 RW or right handed center and a defenseman back to make sure we can fill out that spot. I feel Enstrom's value is much higher then most people think.
Dodged my question, I see.

I'm not talking rough value. I'm talking a specific player. You said Enstrom would be overpayment for Lucic. Wow, that is some serious praise for Toby. Who would be a player that you'd consider fair value for Enstrom that would make the Jets a better team immediately upon his arrival? All I'm asking.

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01-18-2012, 03:40 PM
  #322
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So is Buff's.

Again, this trade pre-supposes the notion that Winnipeg has a surplus of defensemen and a dearth of forwards. Regardless of how you feel about Enstrom, you simply can't deny this. I'd be confident placing our D corps in the top half of the league. Our forwards? I have a hard time not placing them bottom 5.

In order to get any kind of F of value, you essentially have 3 D you can trade; Bogo, Buff, or Toby. Bogosian is as close to an untouchable player as there is on this roster, and I wouldn't let him go for anything less than a ridiculous overpayment. IMO he's still just scratching the surface of his potential, you can't get a fair return for him. Buff's contract makes him a non-tradeable asset. Enstrom? Very tradeable contract, value hasn't really diminished despite his slow start, skillset as a puck-rushing dman makes him easily the most coveted (read: overpayed for) type of player on the trade market.

Can you now see this from my perspective?
But Buff sucks defensively and can't QB a PP.

But yes I do see where you guys are coming from. I just value Enstrom more then you guys. That's all it is really.

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Dodged my question, I see.

I'm not talking rough value. I'm talking a specific player. You said Enstrom would be overpayment for Lucic. Wow, that is some serious praise for Toby. Who would be a player that you'd consider fair value for Enstrom that would make the Jets a better team immediately upon his arrival? All I'm asking.
Shut-up! lol At least I'm more specific then most guys advocating a trade over and over.

From Boston think something like Horton+Ference. Something like that. I feel Enstrom's value is slightly higher then Lucic's and would not trade him straight up, let alone add to it.

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01-18-2012, 03:40 PM
  #323
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I asked the Bruins board what Enstrom would fetch from their team, and they offered up a 2012 First round pick, Caron, and Hamilton.
I like Enstrom, but can you imagine Bogo, Hamilton, and Buff for the next 10 years?

Add in Caron AND a 1st in this years draft?

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01-18-2012, 04:14 PM
  #324
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I'd still take Lucic. In a heartbeat.

Perhaps though, that's just me.
Not just you...

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I asked the Bruins board what Enstrom would fetch from their team, and they offered up a 2012 First round pick, Caron, and Hamilton.
Done.

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01-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #325
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I like Enstrom, but can you imagine Bogo, Hamilton, and Buff for the next 10 years?

Add in Caron AND a 1st in this years draft?
That would be a good return. My only problem is you're setting this team back a little bit. In other words, you're restarting a rebuild...again....

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