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“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 03-02-2012 at 02:41 PM.
College is definitely presented as the only option for 99% of young students if they don't want to be a loser. That's unfair. It's also a huge financial decision that is forced upon 16-18 year olds by their parents, peers, mentors, schools teachers and the media, and that's also unfair. The government and private issuers of loans have a financial interest in seeing college tuition remain very high (at least compared to most of the world) and the fact that government is in the schools using counselors and other propaganda to facilitate the process is even more unfair. Universities also have an obvious interest in seeing tuition rise and if students can always afford it because of loans, what's stopping them? Also, The cost difference between public & private institutions is not justified and it's something that needs to be talked about more. It's definitely not justified most of the time by the connections you get.
College is important. It's a very formative time in a young person's life and I think what a student learns in and outside of class is good. Some people may need it, some people may feel fine just getting a job right out of high school. It just needs to be cheaper and students should be given more information about the "real world", what they expect, how they can get it, etc. They also need to be well aware of the cost of college and the outlook for jobs (due to their profession and the general economic climate). They should definitely be given the information necessary for them to be able to make an informed decision about whether or not to attend college (at the very least)
I agree with Ziggy's post and this combined. Yes, it's the students fault partially, but I also think FA touched on a very important aspect of the discussion, too. I don't remember from 15-18 talking about the huge financial risk or anything like that. Parents help do your FAFSA and take care of all the loan stuff while you go and be a poor college kid and rack up debt. It's expected. I think high schools need to do a better job explaining what comes after college as opposed to continuing education.
On top of that, someone needs to explain private loans to kids because almost every student takes them out. I see individual students without their parents help taking out private loans at 15%. What the ****? That's an absurd number. Even worse, I see kids taking out extra money to spend day-to-day instead of part-time jobs. I also see parents taking out 20-30k of extra debt they can't afford. It's just ruining the economy. So much is tied up into education that never really is paid back .
That's why I can't imagine people getting married at 18-22 and starting a family. There is no equity being built. Kids aren't investing into things like IRAs. Kids aren't saving money up for a down payment on a house (which needs to be 20%). It's a very tough situation.
But hey.. we know all this stuff. I just can't wait (guessing 5-10 more years) til it really comes to be an issue in this country. I believe it's going to be much worse than 2008.
What pisses me off about having a degree the most is doing what I do now, and anyone in a position of power that I've met doesn't have a degree. They simply joined the post office, accrued time, and moved up the ranks.
I talked to the guy who runs the WPa operation. How did he join the post office? Part-time casual employee after high school. Worked as a casual employee for a few years, went to college, got a bachelors. Became a regular employee due to time served, and in doing so, decided to get a masters. Over the last 40 years, he just kept rising the ranks.
In 3 months he will retire making 75% of a damn near 250,000 dollar salary.
This is great discussion. I love talking about this and hearing different opinions because it's so relevant to our society right now. I'm 25 and have a great job in terms of pay and stability due to my degree. That said, if I could redo my college choices knowing what I know now, I'd absolutely have done things differently. My parents and those around me (and many others) just said "okay you're smart go to a good school". There really was no discussion about the true cost of college and the dangers of taking out loans. Honestly, I read articles that say the average student has 20k in loans upon graduation. Really? That's it. Most people I know have well over 30k. And most of those kids don't have solid job prospects.
We have moved into a culture that is so college happy that jobs our parent's generation had that didn't require degrees, now do. Now jobs that used to require bachelors are preferring master's degrees and so on. There's a huge cost in that. I only see it getting worse.
In my case I went to an expensive private college that had a great business school reputation (not exactly knowing what I wanted to do and still don't). I busted my ass, got great grades, earned scholarships for my performance in finance (my senior year I won 2 scholarships that were only given out to 2 students in the finance program). Here's the funny part. Those scholarships only covered the increased cost of tuition from one year to the next. The costs of college are just out of control.
I certainly am fortunate and not "struggling" but still am living paycheck to paycheck for the most part. My loan payments are over 600 a month and I'm "stuck" in a career I don't know if I ever wanted in the first place.
I think we just need to change the system. High school kids need real counselors that talk about the cost of college, the risk of student loans, and other career options. High schools should promote career shadowing programs and allow kids to explore the 'tech school' options in schools. Most kids I know that did those programs, did so because they didn't get good grades. But it's not really about that. Community colleges need to be promoted as real options for all students. I looked down on kids at community college while I was in high school. I regret not exploring those options. Because, at the end of the day, it's not about how smart you are or the status of your degree. It's about exploring yourself, who you want to be, what you want to do, and making the right decisions early, so you can reap the benefits later.
Unfortunately, most kids aren't given those tools early enough to make the best decision.
Big, I noticed in your big wall of text in the previous thread that you've never taken any class that involved writing a script. I found that interesting, because I had a class that included an open-ended research project, and one of my classmates wrote a pilot for a TV show. (It was a show I'd never watch, but that's probably beside the point.)
I should also say, while on this discussion, that my wife is a perfect example of the other route that I never learned. When we met, I was a junior in college and she was a friend of my roommate. At the time she was paying her way through community college while working as an Assistant Manager of a Dairy Queen that she had worked her way up at in high school. She lived at home but had no debt. She bought a very nice car and paid for classes as she went. She was going for Art and then Art Therapy. She ended up stopping after one semester at Cleveland State because she wasn't sure if Art Education was right for her (just as I wasn't sure if Finance was for me but I was so far in debt I needed to finish and find a career job which as I said is a great job).
Anyway, since then she has been promoted to General Manager of the DQ and has begun realizing her goal of owning her own bakery some day. We have started an out of home business that specializes in cupcakes and small cakes for weddings, parties, etc. The amazing thing to me is that she has all the practical experience of running a business while I have all the technical knowledge. She's getting paid for her experience, I paid for mine. I guess my point is, you don't have to take out 30k plus for an experiment on what you might want to do. She sometimes gets frustrated and feels stuck at her job, but she's debt free and making good money (as well as building her resume toward her end goal). Had she gone to a 4 year private school for Art out of high school, we'd both be in tons of debt. I'm thankful for her example.
Just applied to a job with the Air Force in Pittsburgh. Let's see if being a federal employee already gets me an interview. I have applied to federal jobs probably close to 100 times over the last 2 years...never had a call back except from the post office.
Just applied to a job with the Air Force in Pittsburgh. Let's see if being a federal employee already gets me an interview. I have applied to federal jobs probably close to 100 times over the last 2 years...never had a call back except from the post office.
Not surprising. They obviously give extreme preference for those having served in the military.
When I was at Penn State, doing CompEng, it was the exception that a professor's native language was English. Usually, the classes were made up of 80% men, one frat guy who sat next to one frat girl, a single black girl who wore glasses, and nearly 50% asian students. As much as I enjoy engineering, I'm not sure I'm ever going to fit in with that group. Being small business owners, my parents have continually encouraged me to choose first and foremost the major that would yield to me the most financial benefit. Orakpo. Of course, I then struggled to find a major that would prove satisfying to my basic desires. As I progressed though Computer Engineering, it became clear I would never enjoy sifting though lines of code all day. Fortunately, many of the credits I took as prerequisites applied to the various other engineering disciplines. Of particular interest to me are ME and EE. But, I'm sorry to say, I never got a chance to finish and I regret not doing so. If I could do it again, I'd probably take it much more serious as well.
I think college is wasted on the young. I'm 32 and in classes with people of all ages. The older people always appreciate the cost of the classes and the value of the education. The younger people don't always take it seriously. Why spend 100,000 on an education if you're not going to take it seriously?
But online classes are where it's at in my opinion. I've taken writing classes, history classes. Right now I'm taking an e-commerce class, a legal class and a class on authoring in Flash. Online classes have a metric butt-ton of advantages:
1. You can live anywhere - even (potentially) overseas. I haven't had a foreign classmate yet but I don't see why they couldn't participate in my classes.
2. You can attend classes at any time. My program requires me to participate 4 days out of 7 (any four) and I can log in whenever. I work a full-time job, second shift, and when I get home I put in 2-3 hours worth of classwork.
Then you look at what it costs to run these universities - it makes sense on their end too. They're getting away with charging ridiculous tuition because they know it's still cheaper for the student than attending a traditional college would be. They don't have a real campus, just an administrative office of some sort. The instructors don't have to leave their house - they can do multiple classes from their bedroom.
Now admittedly there are certain degrees that you can't pursue online. I originally wanted to go into Industrial Design and I found that you can't get that degree because you can't be an Industrial Designer unless you get training on some 3D modeling machines and I would imagine there's some sculpting involved as well.
But all in all I think these online classes have been great.
When I was at Penn State, doing CompEng, it was the exception that a professor's native language was English. Usually, the classes were made up of 80% men, one frat guy who sat next to one frat girl, a single black girl who wore glasses, and nearly 50% asian students. As much as I enjoy engineering, I'm not sure I'm ever going to fit in with that group. Being small business owners, my parents have continually encouraged me to choose first and foremost the major that would yield to me the most financial benefit. Orakpo. Of course, I then struggled to find a major that would prove satisfying to my basic desires. As I progressed though Computer Engineering, it became clear I would never enjoy sifting though lines of code all day. Fortunately, many of the credits I took as prerequisites applied to the various other engineering disciplines. Of particular interest to me are ME and EE. But, I'm sorry to say, I never got a chance to finish and I regret not doing so. If I could do it again, I'd probably take it much more serious as well.
Yes that was my experience as well. I went there for one semester in engineering. I couldn't understand anything my engineering professor said as he spoke broken english. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it was just a different experience.
I think college is wasted on the young. I'm 32 and in classes with people of all ages. The older people always appreciate the cost of the classes and the value of the education. The younger people don't always take it seriously. Why spend 100,000 on an education if you're not going to take it seriously?
But online classes are where it's at in my opinion. I've taken writing classes, history classes. Right now I'm taking an e-commerce class, a legal class and a class on authoring in Flash. Online classes have a metric butt-ton of advantages:
1. You can live anywhere - even (potentially) overseas. I haven't had a foreign classmate yet but I don't see why they couldn't participate in my classes.
2. You can attend classes at any time. My program requires me to participate 4 days out of 7 (any four) and I can log in whenever. I work a full-time job, second shift, and when I get home I put in 2-3 hours worth of classwork.
Then you look at what it costs to run these universities - it makes sense on their end too. They're getting away with charging ridiculous tuition because they know it's still cheaper for the student than attending a traditional college would be. They don't have a real campus, just an administrative office of some sort. The instructors don't have to leave their house - they can do multiple classes from their bedroom.
Now admittedly there are certain degrees that you can't pursue online. I originally wanted to go into Industrial Design and I found that you can't get that degree because you can't be an Industrial Designer unless you get training on some 3D modeling machines and I would imagine there's some sculpting involved as well.
But all in all I think these online classes have been great.
Online classes certainly have their advantages, but overall I'm not a fan. I learn much better in a classroom in front of real people. It just seems so impersonal. The only classes I struggled in were those with which the majority of the work was online or graded by a computer.
College education is definitely crazy expensive. Why? Most college bound kids can't afford the tuition and NEED student loans, even after they receive scholarships and grants. College used to be a lot more affordable in the 90's. What happened?
It's also a catch 22 because the social stigma in this country is that you need a college degree to get anywhere. And for 99% of people it's absolutely true. Sure there are many majors to chose from, but some don't pay a lot. What is the purpose in paying $30,000 a year in tuition for a major that MIGHT earn you $30,000 a year in salary, and that's assuming someone will even hire you.
My first choice was Penn State, but after considering the amount of debt I would be in (something most college bound kids do not consider unfortunately) I decided I need to go another route. So I ended up at Youngstown State U. Half the price of tuition of PSU, although the college experience is nowhere near that of PSU. Furthermore, a PSU degree is far more recognizable. Did I bite myself in the ass? Probably not but I'm sure it will be a factor in my job search.
I do agree that college is sort of wasted on kids who are 18-20. No one really knows what they want to do, but a select percentage do, and that's great for them. They are by far in the minority. College only started making sense to me when I turned 20 years old. By that time, I have had 2 internships, and a part time job. I knew what I wanted to do. College became much easier and I enjoyed it much more.
I know that being in the military first helped me to do better overall in school. I mean, after having to manage money on my own, buy a car, handle deployments, stand watch, muster sometimes as early as 5:30 AM, etc......making it to a few hours of classes per day and doing my homework on time is easy peasy.
I graduate in May and don't have a job lined up yet. I sometimes worry as it gets closer, but then I read through things like this thread and realize that I am fairly lucky in that I will have a degree and ZERO debt. I think about how being relatively poor sucks, haha, but not having any debt heading into the real world is nice.
I'd like to get on with AmeriCorps because I think back to all I got out of serving in the Navy. I like the idea of giving a year of my time back to my fellow countrymen because it is all too easy to get caught up in "if I don't have a wife, a kid, and a mortgage by age X, my life is ****ed." Unfortunately, even this is getting very competitive
I took a year off after high school and it was the best thing I ever did...I highly suggest everyone does that coming out of high school...it helps put things in perspective greatly...also helps to save up money to pay for college...I paid for my first year entirely with the money I saved up from working in that in-between year.
Throw in the fact that I have an early birthday in the academic year and I was 20 midway through my first semester...and that's about when I started to get things figured out. By the time I got to Montana and turned 21 I generally had a good idea of what I wanted to do with my life, but it still took some time of fine-tuning to get to where I am.
I just don't know how 18 year olds can have life so figured out that they can really know not just where they want to go to school, but what they want to do with their careers. I had no clue what I wanted to major in or where I wanted to go when I graduated, just that I knew that I wanted to get far away from Pennsylvania. Montana wasn't really on my radar until the January after I graduated...and that worked out nicely for me since the program that I was starting to lean towards is one of the best in the nation here, which made that decision fairly easily for me...but it took nearly 8 months of self-reflection and thought to come up with that. There's a reason why I applied to a ton of schools seemingly at random...by the time the acceptance letters started pouring in I'd already whittled it down to a choice between just Montana and Colorado State.
Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 01-06-2012 at 02:07 PM.
I had essentially a free ride through college anywhere in Georgia due to their HOPE scholarship program (heavily subsidized, not totally free). Certain life events happened and after the first semester of my junior year I relocated here (grew up in PA) to Robert Morris. The difference in cost is staggering let me tell you, I'm very fortunate I had most of my schooling done when I got here because each semester at RMU has a heavy cost to it. I'm going to have loans that I wouldn't have had to worry about and although they aren't going to be as high as they could be (grandparents are helping out alot) it is crazy to know that I won't be able to pay these loans back for some time if I don't want to have to live paycheck to paycheck.
Fortunately those previously mentioned life events really made me grow up quick and I picked a major (accounting) that has plenty of job opportunities with the degree. I was able to get an internship with PwC downtown and now I'm extremely confident I will have a full time position lined up with them or another company come December when I graduate.
I feel for you guys that are going to be buried in student loans or already are, I have a few friends that are in the same situation and it is really such a shame that college has turned into such an overly expensive thing to do considering it doesn't guarantee you squat.
So I got a new box of contacts yesterday, and both eyes are completely blurry. The script and the numbers on the boxes of contacts line up. The contacts are clean. I even tried them in opposite eyes with the off chance that the Dr accidentally flipped the numbers around on right and left. Nope. Something is completely off, or my eyes are completely ****ed.
