HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Habs and lack of swedish prospects

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-06-2012, 06:05 PM
  #26
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24stanleycups View Post
They're primary focus should be northamerican players, particularly canadians, and why not draft some more quebecors, there is tons of talent in our country. we're the best. enough of these europeans. the boston bruins won the cup last year and are doing so well this year because of all the canadian content. heart and will wins games.
Their leading scorer was a Czech and their captain/best D is a Slovak...


5 of the top 10 scorers in the NHL are European. Times are changing Don Cherry.

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:09 PM
  #27
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Professional teams aren't interested by amateurs doing scouting "for free", for the simple reason that their input could lead to bad decision being made, and the integrity of their scouting process suffering at the same time. Many eyes doesn't automagically leads to better eyes.
That's correct. But for Montreal to have 1/3rd the scouts that another, less financially fortunate team like Ottawa has, is just inexcusable.

Furthermore, to have only one scout for a major hockey power like Sweden is just stupid. It's arrogant, as well.

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:16 PM
  #28
habdynasty
Registered User
 
habdynasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,995
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
That's correct. But for Montreal to have 1/3rd the scouts that another, less financially fortunate team like Ottawa has, is just inexcusable.

Furthermore, to have only one scout for a major hockey power like Sweden is just stupid. It's arrogant, as well.
The Habs are being cheapskates when it comes to scouting, they should double the scouting staff.

habdynasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #29
Pierre Dagenais
RIP Mr. Hockey
 
Pierre Dagenais's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
I hope this was ironic... Krejci, Chara, Lucic etc


We are the 2nd richest team in the NHL, we should have all regions very deeply scouted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Lucic

Pierre Dagenais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:18 PM
  #30
LeHab
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,925
vCash: 500
Minnesota is much better.

LeHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:19 PM
  #31
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
But..but...his first name is Milan.

Myron Gaines* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:20 PM
  #32
Goldthorpe
Meditating Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
That's correct. But for Montreal to have 1/3rd the scouts that another, less financially fortunate team like Ottawa has, is just inexcusable.
The habs recently (last summer?) made huge revamp in their scouting department. They did it, in part, by hiring head scouts from elsewhere to act as standard scouts for us. More people doesn't equal better scouting.

Quote:
Furthermore, to have only one scout for a major hockey power like Sweden is just stupid. It's arrogant, as well.
First come the scouts, then their territory, not the other way around. What is difficult to find is quality people you can lean on, not any random scout working in a specific country. The reason why some teams focus on some territories, is because they have very high quality people working there, and it's thus they tend to disproportionally trust them over less saavy individuals. It has nothing do to with choosing some random country over another.

The reason Pittsburg has a kickass center line is because the very high quality players they drafted happened to be centers, not because they necessarily privilege this position over another.

Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:28 PM
  #33
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
wow they should really restructure their scouting teams!

need at least 2-3 euro scouts to cover russia, scandanavia and rest of europe.

should have at least 1 scout for each of the following
WHL
OHL
QMJHL
USHL

i would gladly go scout for the habs anywhere they want me to go!
In terms of amateur scouting Habs have the lowest number of staff in the North East division at least. I'm not sure why we don't add a couple more...I'm sure they can afford it.

Montreal Canadiens (10):
Trevor Timmins (Director of Amateur Scouting)
Frank Jay (Amateur Scout - Ontario and cross-check)
Serge Boisvert (Amateur Scout - Quebec and Eastern USA)
Elmer Benning (Amateur Scout - Western Canada)
Ryan Jankowski (Amateur Scout - Western Canada and Western USA)
Mike McCann (Amateur Scout - Ontario)
William A. Berglund (Amateur Scout - Eastern USA)
Pat Westrum (Amateur Scout - Western USA)
Hannu Laine (Amateur Scout - Finland)
Christer Rockstrom (Scout - Europe pros and amateur)

vs


Boston Bruins (13):
WAYNE SMITH (DIRECTOR OF AMATEUR SCOUTING)
SCOTT FITZGERALD (ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF AMATEUR SCOUTING)
MIKE CHIARELLI (AMATEUR SCOUT)
ADAM CREIGHTON (AMATEUR SCOUT)
JACK HIGGINS (AMATEUR SCOUT)
JUKKA HOLTARI (EUROPEAN HEAD SCOUT)
KEITH GRETZKY (AMATEUR SCOUT)
DENIS LEBLANC (AMATEUR SCOUT)
DEAN MALKOC (AMATEUR SCOUT)
MIKE MCGRAW (HIGH SCHOOL & COLLEGIATE SCOUT)
RYAN NADEAU (DIRECTOR OF HOCKEY ADMINISTRATION/COLLEGIATE SCOUT)
JEREMY ROGALSKI (VIDEO ANALYST)
SVENAKE SVENSSON (EUROPEAN SCOUT)

Buffalo Sabres (12):
Kevin Devine (Director of Amateur Scouting)
Bo Berglund (Amateur Scout)
Nik Fattey (Amateur Scout)
Iouri Khmylev (Amateur Scout)
Al MacAdam (Amateur Scout)
Paul Merritt (Amateur Scout)
Craig Benning (Amateur Scout )
Kim Gellert (Amateur Scout)
Eric Weissman (Amateur Scout)
Dave Torrie (Amateur Scout)
Scott Schranz (Amateur Scouting Operations)
Graham Beamish (Hockey Analytics Assistant)

Ottawa Senators (12):
Randy Lee (Director of Player Development and Hockey Administration)
Vaclav Burda (European scout)
Pierre Dorion (Director of Player Personnel)
George Fargher (Amateur Scout)
Bob Janecyk (Amateur Scout)
Greg Royce (Amateur Scout)
Trent Mann (Amateur Scout)
Bob Lowes (Amateur Scout)
Anders Forsberg (Amateur Scout)
Bill McCarthy (Amateur Scout)
Lewis Mongelluzzo (Amateur Scout)
Mikko Ruutu (Finnish Scout)

Toronto Maple Leafs (19):
Dave Morrison (Director of Amateur Scouting)
Mike Palmateer (Amateur Scout)
George Armstrong (Amateur Scout)
John Lilley (Amateur Scout)
Garth Malarchuk (Amateur Scout)
Alan Power (Amateur Scout)
Gary Harker (Amateur Scout)
Scott Carter (Amateur Scout)
Pierre Rioux (Amateur Scout)
Roy Stasiuk (Amateur Scout)
John McMorrow (Amateur Scout)
Darryl Stanley (Amateur Scout)
Bud Stefanski (Amateur Scout)
Dave Starman (Amateur Scout)
Joe Gibbs (European Scout)
Thommie Bergman (European Scout)
Jari Gronstrand (European Scout)
Peter Ihnacak (European Scout)
Nikolai Ladygin (European Scout)

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:34 PM
  #34
kevlar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 58
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN79 View Post
Our scouting team is focused on Switzerland. We need more Swiss players.
no, we need players who are worth drafting. it shouldn't matter where they are from.

kevlar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:36 PM
  #35
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
The habs recently (last summer?) made huge revamp in their scouting department. They did it, in part, by hiring head scouts from elsewhere to act as standard scouts for us. More people doesn't equal better scouting.
They fired a bunch of scouts to cut costs. Lets not make it into something it isn't. Our scouting department looks absolutely awful right now, with very little presence anywhere outside of Western Canada, and the USHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
First come the scouts, then their territory, not the other way around. What is difficult to find is quality people you can lean on, not any random scout working in a specific country. The reason why some teams focus on some territories, is because they have very high quality people working there, and it's thus they tend to disproportionally trust them over less saavy individuals. It has nothing do to with choosing some random country over another.
I never suggested we hire a lot of ****** scouts in every country. I'm saying we don't have very many scouts at all in major hockey regions which would preclude the possibility of us having awesome scouting at all in those regions. This fact is a problem. Is it not? Or is Christer Rockstrom going to do the work that 3 or more equally qualified, or even better scouts would do for Detroit?

My question is why do they have those scouts and we do not? Why does it seem like there is no movement towards procuring more, and better scouts, but rather towards cutting costs, and video scouting?

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:37 PM
  #36
donghabs98
Moderator
 
donghabs98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,394
vCash: 200
is molson being cheep using video instead of scouts?

donghabs98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:37 PM
  #37
Goldthorpe
Meditating Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,475
vCash: 500
Toronto 19 scouts has certainly helped them being the drafting powerhouse they've been (lol)

Montreal 10 scouts has still managed to make the team one (if not the) best drafting team in the league, able to get quality guys from late round (which is where having good scouts make the difference - not in the first rounds where all the good players are known by everybody anyway) over and over and over.

Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 06:43 PM
  #38
Goldthorpe
Meditating Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
They fired a bunch of scouts to cut costs. Lets not make it into something it isn't. Our scouting department looks absolutely awful right now, with very little presence anywhere outside of Western Canada, and the USHL.
If they fired people to cut cost, then why did they then hired other scouts immediately after? Why did they stole (read: overpaid) scouts from other organisations to work for us? Your speculation make no sense.


Quote:
I never suggested we hire a lot of ****** scouts in every country. I'm saying we don't have very many scouts at all in major hockey regions which would preclude the possibility of us having awesome scouting at all in those regions. This fact is a problem. Is it not?
No, it's not. You don't understand how drafting lists are build. Having a lot of people all trying to push their prefered players is counterproductive. If you want to find a good restaurant for a date with your girlfriend, what is the best strategy? Asking one or two food critics, or asking half a dozen people with less knowledge, who will all fight for you to pick their preference?
Quote:
Or is Christer Rockstrom going to do the work that 3 or more equally qualified, or even better scouts would do for Detroit?
I have no idea, I don't know the guy. But having more people analysing players doesn't lead to a better analysis.
Quote:
My question is why do they have those scouts and we do not? Why does it seem like there is no movement towards procuring more, and better scouts, but rather towards cutting costs, and video scouting?
You are making assumptions, some of them being factually false. This does not lead to interesting discussions.

Goldthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:07 PM
  #39
nodice
Registered Lurker
 
nodice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 209
vCash: 500
ok guys, put away your dicks, i know it is hard to swallow seeing a stat where the canadians have the lowest number... but we all clearly have no clue how the system is structured. scouting is all about results

nodice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #40
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,892
vCash: 500
Posters seem to think that those two countries have as many people as Germany or France. Doesn't anyone realize that the combined populations of Sweden and Finland are smaller than that of New York State?

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #41
Ubercron9000
Registered User
 
Ubercron9000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
If they fired people to cut cost, then why did they then hired other scouts immediately after? Why did they stole (read: overpaid) scouts from other organisations to work for us? Your speculation make no sense.


No, it's not. You don't understand how drafting lists are build. Having a lot of people all trying to push their prefered players is counterproductive. If you want to find a good restaurant for a date with your girlfriend, what is the best strategy? Asking one or two food critics, or asking half a dozen people with less knowledge, who will all fight for you to pick their preference?
I have no idea, I don't know the guy. But having more people analysing players doesn't lead to a better analysis.

You are making assumptions, some of them being factually false. This does not lead to interesting discussions.
Quality over quantity

Ubercron9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:16 PM
  #42
Erik Estrada
Registered User
 
Erik Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habdynasty View Post
The Habs are being cheapskates when it comes to scouting, they should double the scouting staff.
I was looking up Claude Loiselle for another thread and I noticed he was doing double-duty scouting for both Anaheim and Toronto in 2010... It they don't want to pay for extra staff they could do more of these types of part-time arrangements. Plus you know the type of info the scout is feeding to the other team...

Erik Estrada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:27 PM
  #43
vokiel
I hate blind shots
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Montréal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 7,561
vCash: 500
Who cares? They aren't the United Nations

Well I admit maybe some swedes in Montreal would like to see Swedish players, but they are a very invisible minority to me.

vokiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:48 PM
  #44
coolasprICE
Registered User
 
coolasprICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Who cares? They aren't the United Nations

Well I admit maybe some swedes in Montreal would like to see Swedish players, but they are a very invisible minority to me.
what is this post about?

coolasprICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:49 PM
  #45
Chris G
Registered User
 
Chris G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 224
vCash: 500
**** euro scouts... it hasn't worked for us...might sound like cherry but draft canadians not soft euros...Koivu was a great player(one of my favourite players/personable personalities), but during his tenure here he didn't win anything. I feel Hemsky, is along the same line with others I can't think about writing this right now...It is probably a bias of mine but I know I am not the only one when saying that these european prospects get so comfortable playing on the big ice with the space and time, that when they come over they keep the same game. they lack of physicality in the majority of their game leads to gritty 3rd/4th liners applying physical pressure to these skillful yet soft players and making it easy to take them off their game by taking away the space and time they are comfortable with, making them utterly useless...its not just euros...but the majority are and these are the types of players we have to take a step back and reanalyze our situation before drafting as many as we have in the past.

What I'm saying is we should focus on homegrown kids, we have plenty of choice (not just from quebec), because we all can't draft like Detroit is.

Chris G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:52 PM
  #46
AntonCH
Registered User
 
AntonCH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,852
vCash: 500
Other than Westin I couldn't name a Swede in the organization.
I then found myself longing for the days of Naslund and the like where we had at least 1 swede on the team or so it seemed for quite some time.
Then I went to IKEA and bought a pack of swedish meatballs for $8. I found myself no longer longing or wondering about swedish players. Best inexpensive fix for an inconsequential problem ever!

AntonCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 07:57 PM
  #47
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Posters seem to think that those two countries have as many people as Germany or France. Doesn't anyone realize that the combined populations of Sweden and Finland are smaller than that of New York State?
Except hockey is the number one sport in Finland and number two in Sweden, something it is not even close in Germany and France, or New York state for that matter. Finland might be a small country but it produces more hockey players per capita than any country but Canada. Like Canada, the best Finnish athletes are channelled into hockey as opposed to other sports.

Both Sweden and Finland are wealthy countries with excellent hockey development programs.

Also, having your eyes in as many places as possible is how Detroit drafts so well. Maybe if we focused our energy beyond US high schools we wouldn't have drafted David Fischer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris G View Post
**** euro scouts... it hasn't worked for us...might sound like cherry but draft canadians not soft euros...Koivu was a great player(one of my favourite players/personable personalities), but during his tenure here he didn't win anything. I feel Hemsky, is along the same line with others I can't think about writing this right now...It is probably a bias of mine but I know I am not the only one when saying that these european prospects get so comfortable playing on the big ice with the space and time, that when they come over they keep the same game. they lack of physicality in the majority of their game leads to gritty 3rd/4th liners applying physical pressure to these skillful yet soft players and making it easy to take them off their game by taking away the space and time they are comfortable with, making them utterly useless...its not just euros...but the majority are and these are the types of players we have to take a step back and reanalyze our situation before drafting as many as we have in the past.

What I'm saying is we should focus on homegrown kids, we have plenty of choice (not just from quebec), because we all can't draft like Detroit is.
Yeah, get rid of all the soft euros like Emelin, Kostitsyn and Eller to make more room for big manly North Americans like Gomez, Cammalleri and Desharnais, right? Maybe Boston will trade us their soft Euro captain for manly American Hal Gill.

This is embarassing, yes the European game on larger ice and less of an encouragement to fight means speed and stick handling tend to be honed more than hitting and fighting, but it's still hockey. This junior championship showed that the Swedish and Russian teams have plenty of big, physical players, who also happened to be better hockey players than team Canada and definitely better than team America. Plus there's the fact that not all "euros" are the same, and the Finns for instance have a more physical hockey culture than others.

Seriously, I expect better than this xenophobic nonsense from a fanbase that always cries about their history of being discriminated against for being French.


Last edited by Et le But: 01-06-2012 at 08:06 PM.
Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 08:08 PM
  #48
Strik_IX
No excuses!
 
Strik_IX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,041
vCash: 500
I already read too many complaints about the lack of Quebeckers on the team, I won't complain about the lack of Swedish scouting

Still think we should be scouting everywhere though, there is no reason not to with this team's revenue and notoriety.

Strik_IX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 08:13 PM
  #49
oleHABSole*
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
I already read too many complaints about the lack of Quebeckers on the team, I won't complain about the lack of Swedish scouting

Still think we should be scouting everywhere though, there is no reason not to with this team's revenue and notoriety.
anybody know the real reason why they didn't choose Giroux?

oleHABSole* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2012, 08:16 PM
  #50
Chris G
Registered User
 
Chris G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Except hockey is the number one sport in Finland and number two in Sweden, something it is not even close in Germany and France, or New York state for that matter. Finland might be a small country but it produces more hockey players per capita than any country but Canada. Like Canada, the best Finnish athletes are channelled into hockey as opposed to other sports.

Both Sweden and Finland are wealthy countries with excellent hockey development programs.

Also, having your eyes in as many places as possible is how Detroit drafts so well. Maybe if we focused our energy beyond US high schools we wouldn't have drafted David Fischer.



Yeah, get rid of all the soft euros like Emelin, Kostitsyn and Eller to make more room for big manly North Americans like Gomez, Cammalleri and Desharnais, right? Maybe Boston will trade us their soft Euro captain for manly American Hal Gill.

This is embarassing, yes the European game on larger ice and less of an encouragement to fight means speed and stick handling tend to be honed more than hitting and fighting, but it's still hockey. This junior championship showed that the Swedish and Russian teams have plenty of big, physical players, who also happened to be better hockey players than team Canada and definitely better than team America. Plus there's the fact that not all "euros" are the same, and the Finns for instance have a more physical hockey culture than others.

Seriously, I expect better than this xenophobic nonsense from a fanbase that always cries about their history of being discriminated against for being French.
Since when was Gomez/Cammerleri/Deharnais/Gill drafted by the habs...yes Emelin and Kostitsyn are exceptions, but one in 50 players are a little more physical? The fact of the matter is we need to draft bigger/ quicker guys because thats the way the game is evolving. and the trend over the past 10 + years is that we here in Canada have a plethora of players like that.

I ask you this, when was the last time a group which consisted mainly of europeans won the cup?

Chris G is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.