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01-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #51
Chris G
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Originally Posted by ELLERCOPTER View Post
anybody know the real reason why they didn't choose Giroux?
Cuz Fischer was the next Bobby Orr

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01-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ELLERCOPTER View Post
anybody know the real reason why they didn't choose Giroux?
Timmins' wife thought he was cute and he took offense

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01-06-2012, 07:22 PM
  #53
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I ask you this, when was the last time a group which consisted mainly of europeans won the cup?
I didn't verify, but Detroit comes to mind.

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01-06-2012, 07:26 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Chris G View Post
I ask you this, when was the last time a group which consisted mainly of europeans won the cup?
Detroit would be the only one. But nobody ever said the Habs should draft mainly Europeans, just as I don't think we should draft mainly American highschoolers, I think we should be scouting everywhere. The dismiss "soft europeans" turn your back on countries with great hockey producing programs (Sweden for instance has been doing a far greater job than Quebec lately) mentality is what I have a problem with. Nobody is saying we should be going into the draft saying we need X Swedes and X Canadians drafted, but I think after the Swedes comfortably won the WJC it's telling that Sweden has a ton of very good prospects we need to be looking at. You want bigger, quicker guys? So do most European leagues.

Also, 2 of the 4 most recent Conn Smythe winners have been Europeans. More Europeans have captained Stanley Cup winning sides than Americans have.

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01-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #55
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We need some swedish twins .


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01-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
I didn't verify, but Detroit comes to mind.
Ya I thought so too, but the team was made up of 15-16 north american skaters, still a solid mix of european make up, but following my point its an occurrence that only happened once in the modern era, doubt it happened before that in a smaller nhl. + as I said detroit is that team that can pick those types of players because they surround them with grit, we haven't so we tend to look at them as soft.

2008 DETROIT REDWINGS: Aaron Downey, Andreas Lilja, Brad Stuart, Brett Lebda, Brian Rafalski, Chris Chelios, Chris Osgood, Dallas Drake, Daniel Cleary, Darren Helm, Darren McCarty, Derek Meech, Dominik Hasek, Henrik Zetterberg (A), Jimmy Howard, Jiri Hudler, Johan Franzen, Jonathan Ericsson, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper (A), Kyle Quincey, Mark Hartigan, Mikael Samuelsson, Nicklas Lidstrom (C), Niklas Kronwall, Pavel Datsyuk (A), Tomas Holmstrom, Valtteri Filppula, General Manager: Ken Holland, Head Coach: Mike Babcock

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01-06-2012, 07:36 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Detroit would be the only one. But nobody ever said the Habs should draft mainly Europeans, just as I don't think we should draft mainly American highschoolers, I think we should be scouting everywhere. The dismiss "soft europeans" turn your back on countries with great hockey producing programs (Sweden for instance has been doing a far greater job than Quebec lately) mentality is what I have a problem with. Nobody is saying we should be going into the draft saying we need X Swedes and X Canadians drafted, but I think after the Swedes comfortably won the WJC it's telling that Sweden has a ton of very good prospects we need to be looking at. You want bigger, quicker guys? So do most European leagues.

Also, 2 of the 4 most recent Conn Smythe winners have been Europeans. More Europeans have captained Stanley Cup winning sides than Americans have.
Here's a list of the most recent stanley cup winning captains since the modern era, Lidstrom was the first one...look at the list there are a few americans.

Here's the last handful:
07 Scott Niedermayer
06 Rod Brind'amour
04 Dave Andreychuk
03 Scott Stevens
02 Steve Yzerman
01 Joe Sakic
00 Scott Stevens
99 Derian Hatcher
98 Steve Yzerman
97 Steve Yzerman
96 Joe Sakic
95 Scott Stevens
94 Mark Messier
93 Guy Carbonneau
92 Mario Lemieux
91 Mario Lemieux
90 Mark Messier
89 Lanny MacDonald
88 Wayne Gretzky
87 Wayne Gretzky
86 Bob Gainey
85 Wayne Gretzky
84 Wayne Gretzky
83 Denis Potvin
82 Denis Potvin
81 Denis Potvin
80 Denis Potvin
79 Yvan Cournoyer
78 Yvan Cournoyer
77 Yvan Cournoyer
76 Yvan Cournoyer
75 Bobby Clarke
74 Bobby Clarke

I'm not saying we should completely null those picks out, we should just concentrate on a more North American looking team, because since the mid 90's our teams mold in that regard hasn't looked good/consistently good...not blaming it entirely on Euro player, as bad management had its hand in that.

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01-06-2012, 07:52 PM
  #58
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Derian Hatcher is the only American on that list. There's been 2 European Stanley Cup winning captains. Lidstrom and Chara.

You know what that means? Absolutely nothing. It means that above and beyond most players in NHL history have been Canadians, and that includes both gritty players and soft players.

And there is no point for many European grinders to play in the NHL when they can probably make more money in Europe, so yes, the majority of Europeans who are recruited to North America are recruited because of their skill. And yes, it's easier to recruit second rate North Americans as role players than it is random Swedish or Russian plugs.

What that means is virtually every team in the NHL will have a Canadian majority. What that does not mean is that we shouldn't scout Europe because of some Don Cherry esque nonsense about toughness, especially when this WJC explictly showed that the high end European teams have both skill and grit.

Also every team in the NHL has had more Europeans since the 90s, not only the Habs. There is plenty of reasons for this, teams didn't start seriously scouting Europe until the late 70s and 80s especially, and Russians, Czechs and Slovaks only arrived after the cold war. If anything it was superior use of European assets that allowed teams like Detroit and Quebec/Colorado become powerhouses at the same time the Habs declined. In fact our only two consistently good players during the first part of the 00s were Europeans.

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01-06-2012, 08:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
I hope this was ironic... Krejci, Chara, Lucic etc


We are the 2nd richest team in the NHL, we should have all regions very deeply scouted.
lucic is canadian, and besides chara, krecji and thomas, the entire team is canadian

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01-06-2012, 09:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by 24stanleycups View Post
lucic is canadian, and besides chara, krecji and thomas, the entire team is canadian
Seidenberg and Rask too. They had a Canadian core but they don't limit themselves to Canadians/North Americans like people seem to be calling for.

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01-06-2012, 09:32 PM
  #61
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The lack of Swedish players is so far down the list... almost wondering why the OP posted this......Thunder Bay, Sept Iles... Newfoundland! Montreal... etc...

The last thing we need to worry about!

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01-06-2012, 11:09 PM
  #62
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Swiss focus ? They drafted 2 guys (Weber and Streit) since 2003 and I think they signed 2 others and one was playing in the OHL...

But I agree with the main topic, Christer Rockstrom is solid but alone. He needs help. It's not like Montréal is a poor team.

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01-06-2012, 11:14 PM
  #63
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Where are the Japanese players!?!

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01-06-2012, 11:16 PM
  #64
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Where are the Japanese players!?!

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01-06-2012, 11:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Seidenberg and Rask too. They had a Canadian core but they don't limit themselves to Canadians/North Americans like people seem to be calling for.
On cup winners the core is ****ing canadian plain and ****en simple! if we have 1 or 2 Russian snipers all the better...I love Emelin and Eller but if you think that after putting up a 4 goal night hes going to lead you to a cup your ****in delirious, surround those guys with some Canadian talent (draft picks, size, etc).

Simple concept is to keep 'er Canadian, for **** sakes we are the "Canadiens" our name has to mean something? Canadians have a direct link with canadian teams especially, and playing for the logo makes it all that more special.

It's not that European players are a burden, but over the years montreal has sought out to these guys to fill holes and take on the saviour role (Kovalev), and it just ain't happening. These skillfull players from europe have to be surrounded with sizeable talent that can give them that space, thats what mtl doesnt have. Thats why I believe having a solid foundation is very important, so the kids can play for the logo instead of thinking about the cheque! I know cheque is mainly what motivates players today, but have a group of guys that know their roles and share similar goals and beliefs is all the more important in building a successful team.

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01-06-2012, 11:51 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Chris G View Post
On cup winners the core is ****ing canadian plain and ****en simple! if we have 1 or 2 Russian snipers all the better...I love Emelin and Eller but if you think that after putting up a 4 goal night hes going to lead you to a cup your ****in delirious, surround those guys with some Canadian talent (draft picks, size, etc).

Simple concept is to keep 'er Canadian, for **** sakes we are the "Canadiens" our name has to mean something? Canadians have a direct link with canadian teams especially, and playing for the logo makes it all that more special.

It's not that European players are a burden, but over the years montreal has sought out to these guys to fill holes and take on the saviour role (Kovalev), and it just ain't happening. These skillfull players from europe have to be surrounded with sizeable talent that can give them that space, thats what mtl doesnt have. Thats why I believe having a solid foundation is very important, so the kids can play for the logo instead of thinking about the cheque! I know cheque is mainly what motivates players today, but have a group of guys that know their roles and share similar goals and beliefs is all the more important in building a successful team.
Well let's take a closer look at that Canadian filled Bruins:

Who won the Conn Smythe? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led in every goalie category and defending Vezina Trophy? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in points? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the NHL playoffs in assists? Henrik Sedin (SWE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in game winning goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in +/-? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who led the Bruins in icetime and is the defending Norris Trophy holder? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who was 2nd on the Bruins in icetime? Dennis Seidenberg (GER)
Who led the Bruins forwards in icetime? David Krejci (CZE)
Who is the Bruins captain? Zdeno Chara (SLK)

Cut the BS, yeah the Bruins have a lot of Canadians but that team was ultimately led by Europeans and an American whether you deny it or not.

Talent is talent.

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01-07-2012, 12:01 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Talent is talent.
And this is why I hope the Habs step up their scouting in Sweden, because nationality doesn't determine whether a player is tough or a "winner" or whatever, so we should be looking everywhere especially known hockey development cores.

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01-07-2012, 01:13 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris G View Post
**** euro scouts... it hasn't worked for us...might sound like cherry but draft canadians not soft euros...
We drafted a lot of big North americans from the CHL in the 1st round in the 90's. It's did'nt work either.

1989: Lindsay Vallis
1990: Turner Stevenson
1991: Brent Bilodeau
1992: David Wilkie
1994: Brad Brown
1995: Terry Ryan
1996: Matt Higgins
1997: Jason Ward
1998: Eric Chouinard


Thank god we took Koivu in 1993.

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01-07-2012, 07:03 AM
  #69
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When you're one of the richest team and can't use that money to spend Yankees style on salaries, you have to spend it somewhere else, and scouting HAS to be where it should start. Totally inconceivable to not have permanent scouts in places where players are coming from. I understand the US obsession but at some point, we need to be diversified. Mind you, even if we have 30 scouts, if the head scout don't believe in something, he's not going to take the guy you want. But if you have 30 scouts (exagerating of course), you might be able to get 5 of them to watch the same guy and if everybody agrees, it will force the head scout to change his opinion.

For whatever reason, and while overpaying them is always possible, we might have harder time to attract some UFA's based on not having a winning culture and the other stuff. The draft is key. I have no idea why they don't appy themselves at getting better people and be more present in every sphere of hockey. I do keep talking about the Q and even if Serge Boisvert (what were his credentials before anyway) is a permanent scout....he doesn't only has Quebec in his "cahier de charges". But US as well. But why 1 guy for Finland and 1 guy for the Rest of Europe? If you have 1 for Finland, how about 1 for Sweden? What did the Finnish scout provided so far? Simila and Naatinen. Naatinen was good bet but should not play in the NHL. And Simila well this great project is over already.

Timmins is one of the best to recognize NHL talent. But I would trade quantity for quality right now. And to get that, you need to upgrade your scouting people with people of talent, able to confront Timmins and his ideas and a scouting team who is able to confront everybody's opinions so that they really get the best list possible from everyhwere in this planet. People keep saying "Doesn't matter what language they speak, give me the best possible"? Well be true to that phrase and acknowledge that right now, there's a lot of positive discrimination towards the US and we might be missing "talent" in some other places because of our lack of scouting and/or positive discrimination towards other places in the world. For the sake of talent and just becoming a better team. But as far as that topic is concerned, Sweden and Finland should get way more attention than they're getting right now.

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01-07-2012, 09:15 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Chris G View Post
Here's a list of the most recent stanley cup winning captains since the modern era, Lidstrom was the first one...look at the list there are a few americans.

Here's the last handful:
07 Scott Niedermayer
06 Rod Brind'amour
04 Dave Andreychuk
03 Scott Stevens
02 Steve Yzerman
01 Joe Sakic
00 Scott Stevens
99 Derian Hatcher
98 Steve Yzerman
97 Steve Yzerman
96 Joe Sakic
95 Scott Stevens
94 Mark Messier
93 Guy Carbonneau
92 Mario Lemieux
91 Mario Lemieux
90 Mark Messier
89 Lanny MacDonald
88 Wayne Gretzky
87 Wayne Gretzky
86 Bob Gainey
85 Wayne Gretzky
84 Wayne Gretzky
83 Denis Potvin
82 Denis Potvin
81 Denis Potvin
80 Denis Potvin
79 Yvan Cournoyer
78 Yvan Cournoyer
77 Yvan Cournoyer
76 Yvan Cournoyer
75 Bobby Clarke
74 Bobby Clarke

I'm not saying we should completely null those picks out, we should just concentrate on a more North American looking team, because since the mid 90's our teams mold in that regard hasn't looked good/consistently good...not blaming it entirely on Euro player, as bad management had its hand in that.
What stands out to me on that list, isn't the NA/Euro factor - more that every player on the list, including Lidstrom, was really, really good. Acquire good players, regardless of need or country of origin, and good things will happen.

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01-07-2012, 09:23 AM
  #71
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[QUOTE=Watsatheo;42045711]Well let's take a closer look at that Canadian filled Bruins:

Who won the Conn Smythe? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led in every goalie category and defending Vezina Trophy? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in points? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the NHL playoffs in assists? Henrik Sedin (SWE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in game winning goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in +/-? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who led the Bruins in icetime and is the defending Norris Trophy holder? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who was 2nd on the Bruins in icetime? Dennis Seidenberg (GER)
Who led the Bruins forwards in icetime? David Krejci (CZE)
Who is the Bruins captain? Zdeno Chara (SLK)

Cut the BS, yeah the Bruins have a lot of Canadians but that team was ultimately led by Europeans and an American whether you deny it or not.

Yes the Bruins have a good mixture of players , 20 north Americans,4 euros and a stanley cup.

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01-07-2012, 09:49 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
When you're one of the richest team and can't use that money to spend Yankees style on salaries, you have to spend it somewhere else, and scouting HAS to be where it should start. Totally inconceivable to not have permanent scouts in places where players are coming from. I understand the US obsession but at some point, we need to be diversified. Mind you, even if we have 30 scouts, if the head scout don't believe in something, he's not going to take the guy you want. But if you have 30 scouts (exagerating of course), you might be able to get 5 of them to watch the same guy and if everybody agrees, it will force the head scout to change his opinion.

For whatever reason, and while overpaying them is always possible, we might have harder time to attract some UFA's based on not having a winning culture and the other stuff. The draft is key. I have no idea why they don't appy themselves at getting better people and be more present in every sphere of hockey. I do keep talking about the Q and even if Serge Boisvert (what were his credentials before anyway) is a permanent scout....he doesn't only has Quebec in his "cahier de charges". But US as well. But why 1 guy for Finland and 1 guy for the Rest of Europe? If you have 1 for Finland, how about 1 for Sweden? What did the Finnish scout provided so far? Simila and Naatinen. Naatinen was good bet but should not play in the NHL. And Simila well this great project is over already.

Timmins is one of the best to recognize NHL talent. But I would trade quantity for quality right now. And to get that, you need to upgrade your scouting people with people of talent, able to confront Timmins and his ideas and a scouting team who is able to confront everybody's opinions so that they really get the best list possible from everyhwere in this planet. People keep saying "Doesn't matter what language they speak, give me the best possible"? Well be true to that phrase and acknowledge that right now, there's a lot of positive discrimination towards the US and we might be missing "talent" in some other places because of our lack of scouting and/or positive discrimination towards other places in the world. For the sake of talent and just becoming a better team. But as far as that topic is concerned, Sweden and Finland should get way more attention than they're getting right now.

Love everything you said well explained and you are bang on. Although baseball is different than hockey, the Yankees invest a lot in scouting. The Leafs also as we can see have taken this approach. I am sure it will start paying dividends down the road for them. The Habs should do all in their power to make sure drafting is a priority.

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01-07-2012, 10:31 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Well let's take a closer look at that Canadian filled Bruins:

Who won the Conn Smythe? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led in every goalie category and defending Vezina Trophy? Tim Thomas (USA)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in points? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the NHL playoffs in assists? Henrik Sedin (SWE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in game winning goals? David Krejci (CZE)
Who led the Bruins and the NHL playoffs in +/-? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who led the Bruins in icetime and is the defending Norris Trophy holder? Zdeno Chara (SLK)
Who was 2nd on the Bruins in icetime? Dennis Seidenberg (GER)
Who led the Bruins forwards in icetime? David Krejci (CZE)
Who is the Bruins captain? Zdeno Chara (SLK)

Cut the BS, yeah the Bruins have a lot of Canadians but that team was ultimately led by Europeans and an American whether you deny it or not.

Talent is talent.
Great selective statistics nothing more irrelevant then that, shows your argument is weening out. Go down the list in my previous post, and look at the leaders on the teams...you will see that the majority if not all are Canadian/American born (not just captains). Yzerman, Messier, Muller, Modano to name a few. The matter of the fact is that we have to draft kids from this side of the world to get to see what they can do first hand, which we haven't been doing. Chicago accomplished this after many years of mediocrity...now look at them. Not a fan of Toronto but over the last few years their shift under Burkie has made me realize that we must also follow these types of inter-organizational transformations in order to draft a team that will play for the logo.


And if you take a look at the drafts over the last 5 or so years for Chicago, Boston, Toronto etc, you will see that the make-up of these teams is not too far off what I've been saying. 3/4 of the kids drafted are North American, although some become busts, the makeup of their teams mirror the fact that they have drafted that way.And with a couple Euopeans in the mix, now that they have to time of day to use their skills to the fullest. (you don't seem to read well)

Seems from reading the forums within the last couple of months that the fan base settles for mediocrity. I do not know if that is because the fan base is getting younger and hasn't seen what it was like to win first hand, or the fact that people are not able to think for themselves.

And I'm not saying that if Montreal has the chance to take Yakupov, that they shouldn't take it, because I agree with the concept to take the best player available, just not the concept to go all gung-ho on drafting Europeans skaters more frequently


Last edited by Chris G: 01-07-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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01-07-2012, 11:48 AM
  #74
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I`d like to see more diversified scouting in general, not just Sweden.

We`ve passed up some interesting talent from all around the world in recent years to go with USHS/Collegiate picks. I don't think it's acceptable for the Montreal Canadiens to pass up a guy like Claude Giroux in their own back yard, and I realise that many people will scream "hindsight" here but let's be honest, the writting was already on the wall regarding Giroux being a high-risk/high-reward pick. He had tremendous skill level. I'd argue at the time of the draft he fit a bigger need for the organisation as well than a "safe" defenceman pick like Fischer was.

Right now many people will say Pacioretty over Perron was a good decision as well, and as of right now it may be true but it's hard to gauge given the amount of time that Perron has missed over the past two seasons. I definitely think Perron has a higher ceiling than Max even if Max fits the mold of what we need more of right now, but that being said had we drafted Perron and he performed at the same level he has since St-Louis drafted him maybe we don't hand out a ridiculous contract to Cammalleri or Gionta in 09 either.

I'm not a Francophone (although I am perfectly bilingual) but I think it's disrespectful and a shame that we pass up local talent when given the chance to pick them. And it's not just the Q, we've been passing up OHL talent for years and years now already. Outside of Subban I can't think of one OHL-based player drafted from this organisation that has made an impact recently and that's a damn shame as it's often considered the best league in all of minor hockey.

I do not have a problem with our recent trend of drafting in general terms, I think Leblanc was a decent pick, Tinordi was a decent pick and I think Beaulieu was a great pick. As much as I love the team and it burns me to see them lose, I'd be absolutely ecstatic if we could land a Yakupov or Grigorenko in the draft this season.

But to to touch slightly on the Sweden part of the drafting discussion, I personally consider Sweden to be the second "safest" region outside of Canada in terms of drafting. All talent aside, I find the Swedes in general are very dedicated and have a great head on their shoulders and often make the transition better and often have far more consistent careers than say most Russian players. Russian players often seem to be boom or bust, either full blown superstars or they are Top-6 talent for a few years until they lose interest and go back to the KHL. And you have to factor that in, if a player can play in their home country for in some cases an even better salary... You really have to be certain of what you have your hands on. Swedes seem far more diversified in their skillset and willing to take on lesser roles and lesser salaries in general. And I do believe recent drafting trends indicate a lot of teams are taking this into consideration and the other trend is obviously more young high-profile Russians coming over to our junior system to show NHL clubs that they ARE dedicated to playing here and staying here, that's a great sign as well.

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01-07-2012, 11:56 AM
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Sweden wins their first gold since Reagan was President = We need more Swedes.

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