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Old
01-19-2012, 10:27 AM
  #101
pgreene
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assuming a player is injured by a hit that draws a suspension, what's wrong, in the abstract, with suspending the offender as long as the injured player is out?

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01-19-2012, 10:28 AM
  #102
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For one, situations like this where the extent of injury may not be readily apparent.

But mostly because I feel the actions are what should be punished, not the result. Clean hits can injure and players can endure a dirty hit. How severe the injury is should not be the basis of justice, but rather how dirty the hit was. Obviously, the intent to injure should be taken into consideration, but that qualifies along with how dirty the hit was. Just because a dirty hit doesn't produce "results" doesn't mean it's better than a borderline hit that does.

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01-19-2012, 10:28 AM
  #103
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Because you get teams like the Blackhawks who more or less lie about the severity of injuries in order to impact the decision.

Basically it would require independent verification of injuries, and it doesn't mesh well with injuries that take time to set in (like some concussions). Just very messy to implement if you're going with a strict relationship between result (rather than action) vs. punishment.
If you base the punishment on games missed, rather than some evaluation of the injury, the Blackhawks situation goes away

Chicago's not going to hold Toews or Kane out 5 extra games just to up the length of a suspension.

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01-19-2012, 10:32 AM
  #104
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If you base the punishment on games missed, rather than some evaluation of the injury, the Blackhawks situation goes away

Chicago's not going to hold Toews or Kane out 5 extra games just to up the length of a suspension.
Which works fine if it's Toews or Kane that get injured. What if it's John Scott?

I don't think they'll ever go to a system where the length of a suspension is indeterminate at the time the suspension is levied. I don't think the players would ever let them. So unless you're going to defer the suspension (which would be an interesting hitch in all this; works in baseball, I guess, so maybe the NHL could make it work as well although with a shorter season it's tougher) until the extent of injuries etc. are 100% known/verified you're still just estimating.

I also tend to think it's the action, not the result, that should get punished in cases like these. Treating these like criminal acts leads to an interesting place considering how much goes on during a game that is, more or less, criminal off the ice. But I really don't know what you do to get real "satisfaction" for the most egregious of these hits.

My guess: ignore the extent of the injury (if you have to make a decision before you can do a thorough evaluation then it's probably not worth factoring in) and just come down harder on these guys regardless.

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01-19-2012, 10:33 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
For one, situations like this where the extent of injury may not be readily apparent.

But mostly because I feel the actions are what should be punished, not the result. Clean hits can injure and players can endure a dirty hit. How severe the injury is should not be the basis of justice, but rather how dirty the hit was. Obviously, the intent to injure should be taken into consideration, but that qualifies along with how dirty the hit was. Just because a dirty hit doesn't produce "results" doesn't mean it's better than a borderline hit that does.
Meh. Let's say I walk out on the street and decide to attack the first guy I see.

If he ends up with a bloody nose and a black eye, I'd likely be charged with assault and battery. If he ends up in the hospital in a coma (like that SF Giants fan), I'd likely be charged with attempted murder. If he ends up dead, I'd likely be charged with murder.

It's how our legal system works. Punishment is based on result.

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01-19-2012, 10:35 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Meh. Let's say I walk out on the street and decide to attack the first guy I see.

If he ends up with a bloody nose and a black eye, I'd likely be charged with assault and battery. If he ends up in the hospital in a coma (like that SF Giants fan), I'd likely be charged with attempted murder. If he ends up dead, I'd likely be charged with murder.

It's how our legal system works. Punishment is based on result.
And why do you believe the NHL's disciplinary system should be based on our legal system?

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01-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #107
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Which works fine if it's Toews or Kane that get injured. What if it's John Scott?

I don't think they'll ever go to a system where the length of a suspension is indeterminate at the time the suspension is levied. I don't think the players would ever let them. So unless you're going to defer the suspension (which would be an interesting hitch in all this; works in baseball, I guess, so maybe the NHL could make it work as well although with a shorter season it's tougher) until the extent of injuries etc. are 100% known/verified you're still just estimating.
Then you do your best to determine the legitimacy of the injury report. Have an independent party examine the player if need be. I don't think it's that big of a problem, honestly. There's already a precedent for punishment based on the result: Todd Bertuzzi.

If Steve Moore doesn't break his neck, Bertuzzi wouldn't have gotten more than 5 games.

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01-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Meh. Let's say I walk out on the street and decide to attack the first guy I see.

If he ends up with a bloody nose and a black eye, I'd likely be charged with assault and battery. If he ends up in the hospital in a coma (like that SF Giants fan), I'd likely be charged with attempted murder. If he ends up dead, I'd likely be charged with murder.

It's how our legal system works. Punishment is based on result.
i believe that the suspension process is agreed to in the cba. i dont think there is a provision for a no time table for his return suspension. i could be wrong of course, but ive never seen that.

ov would have been suspended for the remainder of the season with the suspension for his hit on campbell under that kind of policy

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01-19-2012, 10:39 AM
  #109
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And why do you believe the NHL's disciplinary system should be based on our legal system?
Because punishment based on the severity of the results of a crime is more of a fair standard for the victims.

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01-19-2012, 10:41 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Because punishment based on the severity of the results of a crime is more of a fair standard for the victims.
I don't think NHL discipline is or should be based on getting just atonement to satisfy the victims.

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01-19-2012, 10:42 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Then you do your best to determine the legitimacy of the injury report. Have an independent party examine the player if need be. I don't think it's that big of a problem, honestly. There's already a precedent for punishment based on the result: Todd Bertuzzi.

If Steve Moore doesn't break his neck, Bertuzzi wouldn't have gotten more than 5 games.
I think that could work, but it's a question of timing. How long do you give them to make the decision? And how do you get the players to agree to such a system?

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01-19-2012, 10:42 AM
  #112
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i believe that the suspension process is agreed to in the cba. i dont think there is a provision for a no time table for his return suspension. i could be wrong of course, but ive never seen that.

ov would have been suspended for the remainder of the season with the suspension for his hit on campbell under that kind of policy
Length of suspensions is not governed by the CBA. The investigation and appeals process, along with the fines levied, are.

And Ovy shouldn't have been suspended at all, since the hit on Campbell was legal.

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01-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
I don't think NHL discipline is or should be based on getting just atonement to satisfy the victims.
You think it should be based on the current inconsistent wheel of justice?

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01-19-2012, 10:45 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
You think it should be based on the current inconsistent wheel of justice?
Did I say that? Just because I don't support your alternative means I support the status quo. A more consistent and objective NHL disciplinary process obviously appeals to everyone.

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01-19-2012, 10:46 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
You think it should be based on the current inconsistent wheel of justice?
Honestly, part of the inconsistency is their waffling over how much to factor in the injury. If they picked either extreme (completely factor it in or completely ignore it) they could make things much more consistent. Fair, maybe not, but consistent for sure.

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01-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #116
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Did I say that? Just because I don't support your alternative means I support the status quo. A more consistent and objective NHL disciplinary process obviously appeals to everyone.
Well, the current system is supposedly based on the severity of the act, not the injury.

So if you don't support that, and you don't support punishment based on the severity of the result, what do you support?

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01-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #117
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There's precedent for indefinite suspensions. It happened just a couple weeks ago with Dan Carcillo.

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01-19-2012, 10:48 AM
  #118
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That's why you don't rush to judgement. If teams want to feign injuries, let's see that player missing games. If Shanny had 5 games in mind, fine, roll it the next morning, but say "tentatively suspended 5 games pending further review".

Concussions are a real pickle though. Players can think they are fine and aren't. I understand Shanny is no doctor, but teams don't let players miss games just to lie. Time answers many questions, even just a few days.

More than all that, was the fact the elbow was blind blatant and dirty, on a defenseless player at a point in which the game was ostensibly over. Kind of like Dale on Pierre.

Is he cleaning up the game, or isn't he? It sure didn't look like he succeeded - so.. he failed. Bourque was not deterred after his 1st suspension.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fooled Shanny twice, so he is an idiot.

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01-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #119
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Honestly, part of the inconsistency is their waffling over how much to factor in the injury. If they picked either extreme (completely factor it in or completely ignore it) they could make things much more consistent. Fair, maybe not, but consistent for sure.
The thing is, I don't see how you can completely ignore it. If you do, you're only left with video evidence to determine the severity of the act. Video evidence paints far from a complete picture. Two different elbows to the head could be done with significantly different levels of force, yet look identical on video.

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01-19-2012, 10:51 AM
  #120
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Well, the current system is supposedly based on the severity of the act, not the injury.

So if you don't support that, and you don't support punishment based on the severity of the result, what do you support?
A less arbitrary way of doing what they are doing now. The transparency in the process installed has helped a great deal, I think we can all agree on that.

Set a guideline and stick with it. Doesn't have to be a 100% strong "X action = Y result" rubric, but something more objective and concrete than the current system.

In my mind, your system is remodeling the whole kitchen because you need a new dishwasher.

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01-19-2012, 10:53 AM
  #121
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The thing is, I don't see how you can completely ignore it. If you do, you're only left with video evidence to determine the severity of the act. Video evidence paints far from a complete picture. Two different elbows to the head could be done with significantly different levels of force, yet look identical on video.
And two elbows with identical force could achieve two very different injury results based on context.

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01-19-2012, 10:56 AM
  #122
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My proposal would be to hand out an initial punishment for extremely dangerous plays (perhaps at some threshold, like 4+ game suspensions) which would allow for medical examination, and at that point decide if additional suspension time is appropriate based on the severity of the injury. That way a player wouldn't get dinged for the results of a legal hit or an incident stemming from a relatively minor suspension which resulted in a freakish long-term injury, but would have to pay a heavy price if a malicious act put a player on the shelf for a long time.

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01-19-2012, 11:08 AM
  #123
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And two elbows with identical force could achieve two very different injury results based on context.
That is the main idea to my objection. There are players out there that would roll the dice on a suspention being just a handful of games instead of five or more. Then what do you do in a case when a squeaky clean player is involved in a dumb luck play that hurts someone and a goon does some "head hunting" but doesn't cause nothing more then a bruise? To me that is heading in the same direction of subjectivity that is causing issues in the league to begin with.

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01-19-2012, 11:14 AM
  #124
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And two elbows with identical force could achieve two very different injury results based on context.
If you're referring to the context of the sensitivity to injury of the victim, then oh well. That's tough luck to the player being suspended. I'll take a guy being suspended for what might be considered too too long by many over that joke that Bourque got. 5 games does absolutely nothing to deter. 20 games/half a season/whatever would.

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01-19-2012, 11:16 AM
  #125
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If you're referring to the context of the sensitivity to injury of the victim, then oh well. That's tough luck to the player being suspended. I'll take a guy being suspended for what might be considered too too long by many over that joke that Bourque got. 5 games does absolutely nothing to deter. 20 games/half a season/whatever would.
If you're talking deterrence, though, then you're back to punishing the act (or more honestly the intent, but you'll never get that down 100%) and not the result. If you want to deter then you need to give 20 for those types of plays regardless of whether they result in injuries.

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