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01-08-2012, 02:51 AM
  #26
Chubros
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Man, people advocating for Alberts is making me facepalm hard.


What did he do in this game besides skate the puck into the B's zone twice, with no support, no plan, and just leave the puck there only to retreat? Answer: Nothing.


His reads were still poor, and his agility still questionable. Gap control - please. He is by far the team's worst Dman, hands down. Rome is more agile a skater, and much better at his reads. Sulzer is also better at the breakout passes, and poise. Alberts has size... and...? That's it. He brings nothing else to the table, and he can't even use this one attribute effectively because he is so poor at reading and reacting.


If you can upgrade this player, do so.
This, pretty much. Although Alberts isn't as obviously terrible as he was when he first arrived here, he doesn't add much. The best you can hope from him is he doesn't screw up. I'm still bitter every time he touches the puck due to him being kept over O'Brien.

Ballard also still looks pretty bad. He holds onto the puck way too long and doesn't create much offensively. If you can get rid of that contract, you do it.

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01-08-2012, 03:08 AM
  #27
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A guy like Gleason would be a nice insurance policy for the Canucks, but there will be a bidding war.

On the cheaper end, Hannan or Bryan Allen might be a good bottom pairing solution. But neither could be counted for 20+ a night in a tightly contested series like a Gleason or Lydman.

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01-08-2012, 03:19 AM
  #28
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Want none of the D mentioned. I hope MG tries to acquire Marc Andre-Gragnani out of BUF. He is _hated_ by BUF fans for being weak defensively, but I think he's got potential. In a system like what the nux employ, he'll do well IMO. He moves the puck well. Can be spotted on the PP. Also has a decent shot.


I do not want another stay at home guy that can't move the puck out of the zone. That has to be priority 1.

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01-08-2012, 03:22 AM
  #29
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I like the way our defense is structured right now. Hamhuis-Bieksa is the designated shutdown pairing, which frees up Edler - the team's best defenseman - to do a bit more offensively. Despite the fact he's not what we thought he was when we got him, I like having Ballard on the 3rd pairing. His salary may be huge but obviously it seems to be a luxury the Canucks can afford. That may change when guys like Edler, Burrows and Hodgson need extensions, though.

I still maintain we have one of the best bluelines in the West. Perhaps only Detroit's and San Jose's are better.

By the way, has anyone noticed Bieksa has quietly racked up 25 points - only 4 behind Edler - and is currently 8th in scoring among defensemen? I know people like to say Hamhuis is carrying Bieksa, and perhaps Hamhuis definitely is the better player defensively, but I'd say that Bieksa has played like a great all around defenseman this year and totally worthy of his new contract. He's been physical, generally solid in his own end, and contributing more offense than expected. When he's playing like this in all areas, he definitely makes the Canucks' defense look even better.

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01-08-2012, 03:25 AM
  #30
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Tim Gleason anyone? Pretty solid, willing to fight, and would be a nice rental. Carolina is slipping, and guys like Ruutu, Gleason are being looked at by other teams I'd suppose.

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01-08-2012, 03:30 AM
  #31
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The only problem is that, the Canuck's have to unload a contract in order to make any moves and it seems like Ballard is the only player, they can trade. Maybe Malholtra, but that's unlikely.

Unlikely, but best case scenario. (pipe dream, i know)

Trade Malholtra, Acquire Pahlsson(Don't the Twins love this guy?) to replace Malholtra. Travis Moen, maybe?

Hope there is a taker for Ballard, who would be successful on a run and gun team. Teams want signed guys, and perhaps a team like Anaheim will need a fast puck mover if they decide to move Visnovsky. Give us Lydman for Ballard(not sure about Lydman's value but the whole team is playing like crap).

Then, Attempt to get Gleason or another guy like that, worse case scenario - call up Tanev.

It's time to win now boys, this is the time to trade prospects and picks.


Last edited by Rey: 01-08-2012 at 03:40 AM.
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01-08-2012, 03:32 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Want none of the D mentioned. I hope MG tries to acquire Marc Andre-Gragnani out of BUF. He is _hated_ by BUF fans for being weak defensively, but I think he's got potential. In a system like what the nux employ, he'll do well IMO. He moves the puck well. Can be spotted on the PP. Also has a decent shot.


I do not want another stay at home guy that can't move the puck out of the zone. That has to be priority 1.
You can't win with potential. You have to go in now. Tanev > Gragnani

If you think Lydman and Gleason can't move the puck out of the zone, you don't watch hockey. Points aren't everything. Example. Bieksa in stay home defense mode in the playoffs. I'd take 0 point , reliable Bieksa over offense bieksa any day of the week.

If you want a all offensive team, go look at Washington. There's a reason why, they're never taken seriously.


Last edited by Rey: 01-08-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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01-08-2012, 04:21 AM
  #33
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By the way, has anyone noticed Bieksa has quietly racked up 25 points - only 4 behind Edler - and is currently 8th in scoring among defensemen? I know people like to say Hamhuis is carrying Bieksa, and perhaps Hamhuis definitely is the better player defensively, but I'd say that Bieksa has played like a great all around defenseman this year and totally worthy of his new contract. He's been physical, generally solid in his own end, and contributing more offense than expected. When he's playing like this in all areas, he definitely makes the Canucks' defense look even better.
And I believe he is playing the toughest competition on the team.

You cannot put a price on that kind of flexibility for the org. To have a guy who can play shut down if needed or who can provide some offense if needed.

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01-08-2012, 05:13 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
You can't win with potential. You have to go in now. Tanev > Gragnani

If you think Lydman and Gleason can't move the puck out of the zone, you don't watch hockey. Points aren't everything. Example. Bieksa in stay home defense mode in the playoffs. I'd take 0 point , reliable Bieksa over offense bieksa any day of the week.

If you want a all offensive team, go look at Washington. There's a reason why, they're never taken seriously.
Gleason is apparently going to be VERY expensive to acquire.

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01-08-2012, 06:19 AM
  #35
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Disagree 100% with the OP. This is just a knee-jerk thread. Look at how Boston's been playing lately. The best team in the league for the last couple of months. No one will be perfect against that team, they are coming at you pretty hard. And we still won the game, something that not a lot of teams have been able to do lately (isn't Boston on a 23-4-1[?] streak now?).

Also I disagree so much with the player assesment. You criticize Bieksa, Hamhuis and Edler, and then say Ballard's been good? I just don't get it. Sure against Boston Edler especially had a bit of rough time and Bieksa will have his occasional sleepy time like he did in the first goal there, but those are the guys that play 20-25 minutes every night in one of the league's best teams.

I cringe every time Ballard has to make a play under pressure in his own end because most of the time he fails at it someway. Now imagine if he played 25 minutes against top lines. His minuses would skyrocket and the Canucks wouldn't win as many games.

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01-08-2012, 12:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
You can't win with potential. You have to go in now. Tanev > Gragnani

If you think Lydman and Gleason can't move the puck out of the zone, you don't watch hockey. Points aren't everything. Example. Bieksa in stay home defense mode in the playoffs. I'd take 0 point , reliable Bieksa over offense bieksa any day of the week.

If you want a all offensive team, go look at Washington. There's a reason why, they're never taken seriously.


I'm saying Lydman and Gleason cannot move the puck well enough to fit the nux's system. They've never been the type.


I believe it was a Holland mantra that MG has referenced in the past: You pay for points. I can't see him shelling out 3m~+ for a pure stay at home dman. Look at the roster. Even Hamhuis is going offensively, and he's perhaps the best defensive dman on the team. So his money gets you a complete contribution.


You bring up Bieksa as your example of a counter-argument? He who is rapidly catching Edler in points??... C'mon. If anything, he's an example of the Gillis philosophy. He's making things happen offensively _and_ defensively. You can see why Bieksa is valued by MG - when he's on his game, he contributes at _both_ ends of the ice.


It's the same methodology with Gragnani. If you cultivate a player like him in this system, he has the potential to contribute at both ends of the ice -- unlike an Alberts who's only relevant in his own zone. Even Rome can chalk up points with his two-way play.


A minor trade sending Alberts out and bringing Gragnani in will benefit this team IMO. His value is low right now. Good time for a trade.

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01-08-2012, 01:29 PM
  #37
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Does anyone remember the game against Anaheim when Toni Lydman was HORRIBLE! Theres no way I'd want to acquire this guy. He was a turnover machine during that game and just did not look confident. This guy is making 3 mill a year for the next 2 years. I'd rather have Tanev solidifying the bottom pairing.

I hate these kinds of threads. Posters are basing their opinions off of one road game against the best team in the league. Alberts was good? How was he the last few months? Pretty below average if you ask me. If you can improve on Alberts then you do it but if you can't then you hope he can improve on his recent success. Edler has been bad? What about the rest of the season when posters were saying he was no doubt a top 10 defenseman in the league? Bieksa also had a pretty bad game but has been lights out the whole season.

The defense isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. Unfortunately, now is not the time to acquire a sure fire top 2 defenseman. All this defense needs is maybe a bottom pairing defenseman. One that can fill in if there are injuries.

Edler Salo
Hamhuis Bieksa
Ballard Tanev

This is going to be our defense come playoff time.

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01-08-2012, 02:06 PM
  #38
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I'm saying Lydman and Gleason cannot move the puck well enough to fit the nux's system. They've never been the type.


I believe it was a Holland mantra that MG has referenced in the past: You pay for points. I can't see him shelling out 3m~+ for a pure stay at home dman. Look at the roster. Even Hamhuis is going offensively, and he's perhaps the best defensive dman on the team. So his money gets you a complete contribution.


You bring up Bieksa as your example of a counter-argument? He who is rapidly catching Edler in points??... C'mon. If anything, he's an example of the Gillis philosophy. He's making things happen offensively _and_ defensively. You can see why Bieksa is valued by MG - when he's on his game, he contributes at _both_ ends of the ice.


It's the same methodology with Gragnani. If you cultivate a player like him in this system, he has the potential to contribute at both ends of the ice -- unlike an Alberts who's only relevant in his own zone. Even Rome can chalk up points with his two-way play.


A minor trade sending Alberts out and bringing Gragnani in will benefit this team IMO. His value is low right now. Good time for a trade.

Toni Lydman and Tim Gleason can both move the puck well enough, it's just that they're asked to be stay home defenders. They can put up the points as well, especially Lydman. They can both be "two-way" defenders when they are asked to be. They aren't Pylon's like you seem to think they are.

Bieksa was "AT HIS BEST" when he only played as a stay home defender. Do you understand? You will expect him to play that way, when playoff comes around.

MA Gragnani is god damn awful defensively. You don't need one-dimensional puck movers. You can't win with those.


You clearly, haven't been doing your homework on any of the players. Lydman and Gleason both can put up points..


Last edited by Rey: 01-08-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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01-08-2012, 02:14 PM
  #39
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Bieksa was "AT HIS BEST" when he only played as a stay home defender. Do you understand? You will expect him to play that way, when playoff comes around.
Bieksa put up a bunch of points 5 on 5 and scored big goals in the playoffs. He's at his best when he isn't turning the puck over. That leads to points for him.

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01-08-2012, 02:18 PM
  #40
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Dear KHL

We would like to have Sopel back

Yours Truely

Canucks

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01-08-2012, 02:19 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Gleason is apparently going to be VERY expensive to acquire.
If Gillis has a chance, he has to pay the price. He's so close already and it's not like any of the player's are getting any younger.

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01-08-2012, 02:21 PM
  #42
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Dear Winnepeg

We would like to trade Sopel for Byfulien

Yours Truly

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01-08-2012, 02:21 PM
  #43
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Bieksa put up a bunch of points 5 on 5 and scored big goals in the playoffs. He's at his best when he isn't turning the puck over. That leads to points for him.
He isn't turning over the puck, when he isn't thinking about offense. All his turnovers are from careless pinches in the offensive zone and it always leads to 2 on 1's for the opposition. He stayed back in the playoffs, and waited for his opportunities. That's when he was at his best.

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01-08-2012, 02:32 PM
  #44
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Disagree 100% with the OP. This is just a knee-jerk thread. Look at how Boston's been playing lately. The best team in the league for the last couple of months. No one will be perfect against that team, they are coming at you pretty hard. And we still won the game, something that not a lot of teams have been able to do lately (isn't Boston on a 23-4-1[?] streak now?).

Also I disagree so much with the player assesment. You criticize Bieksa, Hamhuis and Edler, and then say Ballard's been good? I just don't get it. Sure against Boston Edler especially had a bit of rough time and Bieksa will have his occasional sleepy time like he did in the first goal there, but those are the guys that play 20-25 minutes every night in one of the league's best teams.

I cringe every time Ballard has to make a play under pressure in his own end because most of the time he fails at it someway. Now imagine if he played 25 minutes against top lines. His minuses would skyrocket and the Canucks wouldn't win as many games.
This thread is meant to discuss anything related to the defense not a "criticize the defense thread I" if you assume it was.

And I'm sorry if you disagree 100%. In your judgement, your comparing a 2-3rd pairing defensemen Ballard with a top pairing defensemen like Bieksa and Hamhuis. Obviously Bieksa and Hamhuis are both better than Ballard. I wasn't really assessing them on equal grounds.

When I say Ballard was "probably the best defensemen" means in my opinion he did his job very well when he was on the ice. Wheres Bieksa and Hamhuis not so much (they were average).

And in no way am I saying I expect all of our Ds be perfect every game. But against a team like Boston you just can't give them those kind of chances.

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01-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #45
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I think we're all downplaying the skills of the defenceman we do have. Even our supposed 'losers' like Rome and Alberts make plenty of good outlet passes and generally do their job chipping it up the halfboards.

Noone is going to be perfect and to me you guys aren't watching the little plays that spark breakouts, get the puck out of trouble and just generally push a game along.

The big mistakes are going to be obvious and it's easy to see. The little touches aren't sexy but that's what really makes a defence core work.

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01-08-2012, 02:38 PM
  #46
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He isn't turning over the puck, when he isn't thinking about offense. All his turnovers are from careless pinches in the offensive zone and it always leads to 2 on 1's for the opposition. He stayed back in the playoffs, and waited for his opportunities. That's when he was at his best.
No careless pinches, this team goes 100% of the time if they can get there. It's up to the forwards to cover.

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01-08-2012, 02:39 PM
  #47
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You really have to expect Salo to get injured in some way during the season
Some might even argue what took him so long

Gillis had stated at the beginning of the season that they will try to preserve Salo by giving him games and days off,
but not so, AV (Bowness) has played him way too much as if he was a young buck

It's also been apparent that the Nucks need a top 4 D for while now
So hopefully Gillis has been working on this and the price isn't that much

On paper, the best business move would be trading Malhotra and his 2.5M cap hit for a defenceman,
but the humanitarian in Gillis may force him to take a different option

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01-08-2012, 03:37 PM
  #48
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Does anyone remember the game against Anaheim when Toni Lydman was HORRIBLE! Theres no way I'd want to acquire this guy. He was a turnover machine during that game and just did not look confident. This guy is making 3 mill a year for the next 2 years. I'd rather have Tanev solidifying the bottom pairing.

I hate these kinds of threads. Posters are basing their opinions off of one road game against the best team in the league. Alberts was good? How was he the last few months? Pretty below average if you ask me. If you can improve on Alberts then you do it but if you can't then you hope he can improve on his recent success. Edler has been bad? What about the rest of the season when posters were saying he was no doubt a top 10 defenseman in the league? Bieksa also had a pretty bad game but has been lights out the whole season.

The defense isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. Unfortunately, now is not the time to acquire a sure fire top 2 defenseman. All this defense needs is maybe a bottom pairing defenseman. One that can fill in if there are injuries.

Edler Salo
Hamhuis Bieksa
Ballard Tanev

This is going to be our defense come playoff time.
I agree with this post whole-heartedly. I like the structure of the defense right now and it's not like the Canucks have the cap space to significantly upgrade the defense unless they're trading away other parts of the roster, which I don't think is advisable right now.

The only thing that concerns me going forward is finding a long-ish term partner for Edler. There's a giant hole there as Salo will only be with this team so long. He may retire this year or maybe give it one more shot next year. The 3rd pairing spot beside Ballard is perfect for slotting in rookie defensemen like Tanev or even Sauve or Connauton to develop so there's no need to fill that spot with a substantial player, especially with the quality of defensemen ahead of that spot. The Red Wings have the same kind of thing going with Lidstrom, White, Kronwall, Stuart and Ericsson their top 5 and Kindl comfortably developing in the 6th spot beside Ericsson.

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01-08-2012, 11:15 PM
  #49
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The Canucks D could certainly stand to improve - especially Hamhuis and Bieksa who lost coverage on both goals against they were on the ice for. They've been alright this year but I think the mistakes are mainly a result of fatigue too. Playing them 24 minutes a night doesn't really help things.

I don't know if it's a coaching problem or what, but I'm of the mind that the forwards have to provide better support too. Sometimes it's not enough to just let your D get the puck out all by themselves.

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01-09-2012, 12:14 AM
  #50
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The Canucks D could certainly stand to improve - especially Hamhuis and Bieksa who lost coverage on both goals against they were on the ice for. They've been alright this year but I think the mistakes are mainly a result of fatigue too. Playing them 24 minutes a night doesn't really help things.

I don't know if it's a coaching problem or what, but I'm of the mind that the forwards have to provide better support too. Sometimes it's not enough to just let your D get the puck out all by themselves.
I think theyve been asked to do more. Focus not just on shutdown but also contributing offense wise.

Losing Ehrhoff has changed things in that we have one less guy putting in 20ish minutes who focussed solely on offense.

I have no issue with them expanding their role however come playoff time they may need to refocus.


Many times when there are D breakdowns its due to poor coverage by the forwards etc. This gets over looked many times. Its not surprising though considering the game the nucks like to play which is offense first.

If you can have a shutdown pairing that get 30ish points each youre gold.

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