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All David Desharnais talk here.

View Poll Results: Is Desharnais' future at center or wing?
Keep him at center long-term. Play him with two big wingers. 54 83.08%
Shift him to the wing. We need more size at center. We can't give him two big wingers. 3 4.62%
Keep him at center for next season. Draft a center this year and shift DD to wing when he comes up. 8 12.31%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
I don't understand why everyone wants to relieve Pleks from his defensive responsabilities... That's where he excels at. Why would you want to give him easier minutes when he's doing a good job... Probably the best of the team with hard minutes.
Our #1 center should not have to be our #1 shutdown guy either. It's a bonus that he's reliable defensively.

The fact he plays 3 minutes per game while shorthanded is taking away from "soft" minutes he can be playing out there trying to create offense. I don't care if he's good at it, the fact is there is PLENTY of 3rd-4th line "specialists" out there that can fill this role equally as effective in order to lessen Plekanec's work load. We just choose not to employ these types of players, instead we rather roll with a guy like Darche or even put Weber on a forward unit. Nokelainen is a terrible 4th line center IMO.

Of course he's programmed to play well defensively. That's fine. No one is asking him not to. I'm asking the general manager and the coach to place him in a position where he doesn't have to focus SO MUCH on defense.

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01-28-2012, 12:02 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I also think he would produce with any linemate, so long as he gets those "soft" minutes. His production on the road and his production at home are like night and day and it's no surprise to me.
So are Cole's and Pacioretty's. So I guess they are only good because they get soft minutes at home too, right?

Can you get the specific breakdown of points? I know DD has scored 21 at home and 14 on the road, but in what situations? Maybe he's got a similar number of ES road and home points. I don't really feel like going through game by game to see exactly what the breakdown is either.

Also, like I said previously, Desharnais' quality of competition has gone way up in the last few months. It was a lot worse in the first couple of months of the season, but it's slowly evening out.

PS. Cole, Pacioretty, and Plekanec probably wouldn't score as much if they were a line then, since they'd be getting the hardest minutes. And Desharnais would just produce with someone else.

People seem to forget that this is his first full year too. The guy is improved so much in 4-months and it's only going to get better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danadiens View Post
Pleks is also a lot faster
Funny considering Desharnais was one of the fastest skaters at the skills competition the other day (13.49 seconds). PS. That would rank him second in all of the All-Star games since 1992, as only Mike Gartner (13.39 seconds) was faster.


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01-28-2012, 12:04 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Danadiens View Post
Pleks is also a lot faster
He just looks faster because he's bigger and has a bigger stride. The difference is negligable. Plekanec's game is based on skating at full stride and trying to get around players and quick stops at the hash marks to hit trailers.

Desharnais generally tries to slow down the pace of the game, which is why he is seen as "slow". His performances in the speed competitions indicates he is actually one of the fastest skaters on the team.

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01-28-2012, 12:11 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
So are Cole's and Pacioretty's. So I guess they are only good because they get soft minutes at home too, right?

Can you get the specific breakdown of points? I know DD has scored 21 at home and 14 on the road, but in what situations? Maybe he's got a similar number of ES road and home points. I don't really feel like going through game by game to see exactly what the breakdown is either.

Also, like I said previously, Desharnais' quality of competition has gone way up in the last few months. It was a lot worse in the first couple of months of the season, but it's slowly evening out.

PS. Cole, Pacioretty, and Plekanec probably wouldn't score as much if they were a line then, since they'd be getting the hardest minutes. And Desharnais would just produce with someone else.

People seem to forget that this is his first full year too. The guy is improved so much in 4-months and it's only going to get better.


Funny considering Desharnais was one of the fastest skaters at the skills competition the other day (13.49 seconds). PS. That would rank him second in all of the All-Star games since 1992, as only Mike Gartner (13.39 seconds) was faster.
Did he really put up a time of 13.49? Seems off. I mean I find his lack of foot speed over blown, but this would imply he's one of the fastest in the league, let alone the team. I can't see my eyes being fooled this much.

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01-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
He just looks faster because he's bigger and has a bigger stride. The difference is negligable. Plekanec's game is based on skating at full stride and trying to get around players and quick stops at the hash marks to hit trailers.

Desharnais generally tries to slow down the pace of the game, which is why he is seen as "slow". His performances in the speed competitions indicates he is actually one of the fastest skaters on the team.
Exactly. Here's footage from the fastest skater competition.. he's sure slow.


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01-28-2012, 12:19 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
So are Cole's and Pacioretty's. So I guess they are only good because they get soft minutes at home too, right?

Can you get the specific breakdown of points? I know DD has scored 21 at home and 14 on the road, but in what situations? Maybe he's got a similar number of ES road and home points. I don't really feel like going through game by game to see exactly what the breakdown is either.

Also, like I said previously, Desharnais' quality of competition has gone way up in the last few months. It was a lot worse in the first couple of months of the season, but it's slowly evening out.

PS. Cole, Pacioretty, and Plekanec probably wouldn't score as much if they were a line then, since they'd be getting the hardest minutes. And Desharnais would just produce with someone else.

People seem to forget that this is his first full year too. The guy is improved so much in 4-months and it's only going to get better.


Funny considering Desharnais was one of the fastest skaters at the skills competition the other day (13.49 seconds). PS. That would rank him second in all of the All-Star games since 1992, as only Mike Gartner (13.39 seconds) was faster.
The net my friend, the net...

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01-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
The net my friend, the net...
What about the net? Yeah, it's been moved back in recent years (which would probably add a second to Eller and DD's time, which would put them right in line with the current All-Star competitors - and is probably why no one has broke 14 seconds since 2004).

But the net used to be that far in during All-Star game. Not sure why they moved it back (and then still compare it to Mike Gartner's record), since you'd think it would increase the chance of injury.

Here's a video from 1998;



Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Did he really put up a time of 13.49? Seems off. I mean I find his lack of foot speed over blown, but this would imply he's one of the fastest in the league, let alone the team. I can't see my eyes being fooled this much.
The video is posted below your last post.

Desharnais was never slow, he was always above average. Just never lightning quick - but he's improved on his speed so much since he was in the ECHL and is a very fast skater now.

The reason he looks slower, like mentioned by someone else, is that to use his vision, he likes to slow the game down a little, so he can find the open lanes.

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01-28-2012, 12:35 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Exactly. If we take DD on his own, he is playing absolutely phenomenal I don't think anyone can deny this. But if you want to start comparing him to Plekanec, you need to look beyond just overall point totals.

MathMan showed me a site last week that showed that Desharnais had the most offensive zone starts of any player on the habs. There is no denying that he is put in offensively favored positions. At home he rarely gets the tough match ups because the habs have last change which is explains why he has 21 points in 25 games at home while he has only 14 points in 24 games on the road where he is mostly facing better opposition as the opposing teams single out his line as the offensive one.

as you said, if you want to make comparisons, you need to take this all into account.
People are thinking it backward here.

DD is not producing because he's put in favorable offensive situation, he's put in favorable situation because he's producing.

He's clearly the biggest offensive threat among our centers, that's why coaches use him in most productive situation. That's basic coaching.
Not sure what people are trying to prove with all these stats about faceoffs and linemates. It's not the context that made Desharnais, it's Desharnais who made it.

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01-28-2012, 12:53 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
What about the net? Yeah, it's been moved back in recent years (which would probably add a second to Eller and DD's time, which would put them right in line with the current All-Star competitors - and is probably why no one has broke 14 seconds since 2004).

But the net used to be that far in during All-Star game. Not sure why they moved it back (and then still compare it to Mike Gartner's record), since you'd think it would increase the chance of injury.

Here's a video from 1998;




The video is posted below your last post.

Desharnais was never slow, he was always above average. Just never lightning quick - but he's improved on his speed so much since he was in the ECHL and is a very fast skater now.

The reason he looks slower, like mentioned by someone else, is that to use his vision, he likes to slow the game down a little, so he can find the open lanes
.
Markov was the same way in his prime as well. I remember telling my friends how great of a skater Markov was, and they we're like "I don't see it?". It's because he opted to slow down the pace of the game to open up lanes, rapid shifts in speed/direction to alter the opposition's positions. When they have to move, they can move and quickly. It's just not how their game is played.

Cole for instance, he looks lightning fast out there. Way faster than Pacioretty. Pacioretty is actually a faster skater than Cole, when he does go full speed. Different playing styles, Pacioretty plays a far more cerebral game than Cole. Pacioretty reminds me more of a bigger version of Cammalleri that goes to the net than he reminds me of Cole (which a lot of people say was his comparible a few years ago). Pacioretty can beat players with speed, but he rarely carries the puck on this line either. It's always DD or Cole carrying the transition.

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01-28-2012, 12:54 PM
  #260
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He plays a good boards game.

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01-28-2012, 04:56 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
What about the net? Yeah, it's been moved back in recent years (which would probably add a second to Eller and DD's time, which would put them right in line with the current All-Star competitors - and is probably why no one has broke 14 seconds since 2004).

But the net used to be that far in during All-Star game. Not sure why they moved it back (and then still compare it to Mike Gartner's record), since you'd think it would increase the chance of injury.

Here's a video from 1998;




The video is posted below your last post.

Desharnais was never slow, he was always above average. Just never lightning quick - but he's improved on his speed so much since he was in the ECHL and is a very fast skater now.

The reason he looks slower, like mentioned by someone else, is that to use his vision, he likes to slow the game down a little, so he can find the open lanes.
Amazing, but the nets are out further in the habs video than they ever were during the skills competition.


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01-28-2012, 05:18 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
People are thinking it backward here.

DD is not producing because he's put in favorable offensive situation, he's put in favorable situation because he's producing.

He's clearly the biggest offensive threat among our centers, that's why coaches use him in most productive situation. That's basic coaching.
Not sure what people are trying to prove with all these stats about faceoffs and linemates. It's not the context that made Desharnais, it's Desharnais who made it.
Finally someone who gets it.
Amen !

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01-28-2012, 05:37 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
So are Cole's and Pacioretty's. So I guess they are only good because they get soft minutes at home too, right?

Can you get the specific breakdown of points? I know DD has scored 21 at home and 14 on the road, but in what situations? Maybe he's got a similar number of ES road and home points. I don't really feel like going through game by game to see exactly what the breakdown is either.

Also, like I said previously, Desharnais' quality of competition has gone way up in the last few months. It was a lot worse in the first couple of months of the season, but it's slowly evening out.

PS. Cole, Pacioretty, and Plekanec probably wouldn't score as much if they were a line then, since they'd be getting the hardest minutes. And Desharnais would just produce with someone else.

People seem to forget that this is his first full year too. The guy is improved so much in 4-months and it's only going to get better.


Funny considering Desharnais was one of the fastest skaters at the skills competition the other day (13.49 seconds). PS. That would rank him second in all of the All-Star games since 1992, as only Mike Gartner (13.39 seconds) was faster.
lol come on.... the first thing that came to my mind was that the net in its usual position for this kind of testing.

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01-28-2012, 06:58 PM
  #264
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lol come on.... the first thing that came to my mind was that the net in its usual position for this kind of testing.
Did you read my next post AT ALL?

I acknowledged that. The net used to be almost as far out as the Habs one (a few inches difference) - but they changed it a few years ago (which explains the difference in time lately).

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01-28-2012, 07:05 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Did you read my next post AT ALL?

I acknowledged that. The net used to be almost as far out as the Habs one (a few inches difference) - but they changed it a few years ago (which explains the difference in time lately).
yeah, sorry.. my mistake :p

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01-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #266
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He's clearly the biggest offensive threat among our centers, that's why coaches use him in most productive situation. That's basic coaching.
Yes and no. It's a position where his skills are maximized while his deficiencies are masked. But give Plekanec this type of minutes with the wingers, and I'm sorry, but he will get more points. Heck, he's almost at the same level of production already and he's having to row upstream against the opposition's best all the time.

And again, that's just good coaching. Pleks can row upstream, which allows the Habs the opportunity to start DD next to the other guy's goal and use his skills. Put your best guy in the toughest situations and put the talented but unidimensional guy where he's most likely to succeed. Sensible.

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01-28-2012, 09:02 PM
  #267
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Yes and no. It's a position where his skills are maximized while his deficiencies are masked. But give Plekanec this type of minutes with the wingers, and I'm sorry, but he will get more points. Heck, he's almost at the same level of production already and he's having to row upstream against the opposition's best all the time.

And again, that's just good coaching. Pleks can row upstream, which allows the Habs the opportunity to start DD next to the other guy's goal and use his skills. Put your best guy in the toughest situations and put the talented but unidimensional guy where he's most likely to succeed. Sensible.
DD is better offensively than Plekanec, like it or not. I see youre more delusional than ever.

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01-29-2012, 07:22 AM
  #268
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If Desharnais weren't on the roster this season, then the Canadiens could possibly be a serious contender in the "Fail for Nail" sweepstakes.

Max Pacioretty had scored a whopping 20 career goals in 123 games prior to this season. He already has 17 in just 46 games playing with DD this year. Erik Cole has averaged 22 goals per season in his last 3 healthy years. Cole is producing at a much higher rate than expected-19 in just over half a season. Pacioretty is on the record lauding DD "as the best player with whom he has ever played". Discount these facts with overemphasis upon micro stats all you want, naysayers, but DD probably has maximized both of these two players production. And expect it to get much better over the next year. He's coming into his own. Period. Not as a result of a preponderance of offensive zone face offs.

His ECHL coach (Chuck Weber-now of San Antonio of the AHL) and his AHL coach (Boucher-now of Tampa of the NHL) are both young and highly successful coaches. Both were on record stating that DD would have been in the NHL while under their guidance had he been 6 feet tall. And both said he would be highly successful....maybe each of these up-and-coming coaches saw something that the micro stats make some on this board blind to seeing.

These puck possession stats-which many worship with religious fervor on this board-reward those players who take a lot of shots. Some very good puck controllers-the best in fact-the Russian players on the teams before those players were allowed to play in the NHL-would fare very poorly in these contrived stats. Players who hold onto the puck and favor passing over 45 foot perimeter shooting (like DD) don't fare nearly as well as a Gomez who "launches" his 50 foot wrist shots most of us could catch barehanded

The point: DD plays a game which doesn't register in some of the esoteric statistics. That he leads the team in plus/minus is just casually dismissed by many in favor of a perceived belief that his match ups are just so much weaker than everyone else on the team.

That, as others have pointed out, wouldn't speak much of Cole and Pacioretty.

That DD might someday eclipse Plekanec in NHL production shouldn't really mystify anyone. DD was a much higher PPG producer in the AHL than TP. While production in the AHL doesn't often translate to the NHL, DD has proved already that his does. He has 19 points in his last 19 games; imagine what he'll be able to do with Markov on the PP. He's been on the ice for one goal against in all situations in his last 9 games. He's just coming into his comfort zone-and barring injuries-could become a PPG player as early as next season. He's exceeding my expectations-I didn't think that I'd ever project him above 60 points in a season. Even as much as I believed in him, I've still discounted his ultimate production SIMPLY BECAUSE OF HIS SIZE. While that's normal, it's wrong in this case.


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01-29-2012, 11:11 AM
  #269
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I'm wondering something. If DD is getting that easier match up, which is why he scores and doesn't get score on, what about in away games? Sure, his production rate might be smaller, but has he proven such a disastrous liability when he is paired against the opposition's top line?

Because thats what would happen in away games. Also, is Plek's production in away game better since he's getting an easier match up?

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01-29-2012, 11:31 AM
  #270
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How come we,re comparing a rookie player making 650 K with a veteran player who is supposed to play more and have more important duties and is paid 5 million a year.

It really doesn't matter who is getting the most point, as long as they are doing their job.

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01-29-2012, 03:03 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Max Pacioretty had scored a whopping 20 career goals in 123 games prior to this season. He already has 17 in just 46 games playing with DD this year. Erik Cole has averaged 22 goals per season in his last 3 healthy years. Cole is producing at a much higher rate than expected-19 in just over half a season.
We've been pointing out that DD is being given very offensive minutes. His linemates are getting these minutes as well. It stands to reason such favorable circumstances would boost their own production as well. It also bears pointing out that MaxPac was scoring goals at the exact same rate last season before it was cut short.

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These puck possession stats-which many worship with religious fervor on this board-reward those players who take a lot of shots.
Incorrect. They reward players whose teams attempt a lot of shots while they are on the ice, and also prevent opposition shot attempts. DD plays alongside Pacioretty and Cole, both of whom are top-30 in the whole league for shots on goal; obviously DD's puck control and passing factors into that, but the point is, the metrics will correctly award everyone on that line positive puck possession for all these shots.

The problem is that DD is a puck-possession neutral player despite the favorable circumstances in which he plays. This points to his primary problem: allowing too many shots against. Despite playing alongside two shot machines, DD has allowed essentially as many shot attempts against as he has for. His linemates are both heavily positive, pointing to the possibility that Cole and Pacioretty both are better at preventing shots against when they are not paired with DD.

This points us to the kind of player DD is: an excellent offensive contributor who still has issues in the defensive zone.

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Some very good puck controllers-the best in fact-the Russian players on the teams before those players were allowed to play in the NHL-would fare very poorly in these contrived stats.
You might be interested to know that Pavel Datsyuk is a Corsi king. This stands to reason, after all; while he's holding the puck, neither side is shooting, and Datsyuk generates shots and shooting chances for while preventing against by holding the puck for so long. And he does so against first-line opposition every game. Truly, he is a fantastic puck-possession player -- and the metrics reflect that.

The reason the metrics don't look the same for DD is not because he plays some style of play that makes the metrics look bad, it is because he is just not that type of player. He is fantastic at what he does well, but he has real limitations at this stage of his career. The Habs' have been coaching to put him into the best position to succeed.

The bottom line: having a lot of points does not make you good at everything any more than having few points means you are bad at everything. DD is a tremendously useful player (let alone at his price point!) but it would behoove the observer to understand his limitations and why he is deployed the way he is. I really like DD, I've got a massive preference for athletes who succeed because of their brains, but he needs to improve some parts of his game.


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01-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #272
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I'm wondering something. If DD is getting that easier match up, which is why he scores and doesn't get score on, what about in away games? Sure, his production rate might be smaller, but has he proven such a disastrous liability when he is paired against the opposition's top line?
Well at the very gross level:
DD is +13 at home and -2 on the road. Points splits 21/14.
Plekanec is -6 at home and -5 on the road. Points splits 16/17.

Keep in mind that being on the road does not preclude the coach having some control over matchups, still allows the road coach to determine starting zone, and also that some opposing coaches have viewed Plekanec as the top threat and opposed him their top line.

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01-29-2012, 03:11 PM
  #273
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We've been pointing out that DD is being given very offensive minutes. His linemates are getting these minutes as well. It stands to reason such favorable circumstances would boost their own production as well. It also bears pointing out that MaxPac was scoring goals at the exact same rate last season before it was cut short.



Incorrect. They reward players whose teams attempt a lot of shots while they are on the ice, and also prevent opposition shot attempts. DD plays alongside Pacioretty and Cole, both of whom are top-30 in the whole league for shots on goal; obviously DD's puck control and passing factors into that, but the point is, the metrics will correctly award everyone on that line positive puck possession for all these shots.

The problem is that DD is a puck-possession neutral player despite the favorable circumstances in which he plays. This points to his primary problem: allowing too many shots against. Despite playing alongside two shot machines, DD has allowed essentially as many shot attempts against as he has for. His linemates are both heavily positive, pointing to the possibility that Cole and Pacioretty both are better at preventing shots against when they are not paired with DD.

This points us to the kind of player DD is: an excellent offensive contributor who still has issues in the defensive zone.



You might be interested to know that Pavel Datsyuk is a Corsi king. This stands to reason, after all; while he's holding the puck, neither side is shooting, and Datsyuk generates shots and shooting chances for while preventing against by holding the puck for so long. And he does so against first-line opposition every game. Truly, he is a fantastic puck-possession player -- and the metrics reflect that.

The reason the metrics don't look the same for DD is not because he plays some style of play that makes the metrics look bad, it is because he is just not that type of player. He is fantastic at what he does well, but he has real limitations at this stage of his career. The Habs' have been coaching to put him into the best position to succeed.

The bottom line: having a lot of points does not make you good at everything any more than having few points means you are bad at everything. DD is a tremendously useful player (let alone at his price point!) but it would behoove the observer to understand his limitations and why he is deployed the way he is. I really like DD, I've got a massive preference for athletes who succeed because of their brains, but he needs to improve some parts of his game.

Isn't it the job of coaches to put their players in the best position to have an overall team success ?

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01-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #274
MathMan
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Isn't it the job of coaches to put their players in the best position to have an overall team success ?
Of course. That's what Martin was adept at doing.

That doesn't change DD's abilities though, or the point that his offensive produciton is being boosted because he is given very offensive minutes. The recognition of context is vitally important to player evaluation.

I like to point out that if Plekanec were less adept defensively, less complete, in other words a worse player, he'd end up not spending time on the PK, getting softer minutes, spend more time on the PP, and end up with more total points. And a lot of people would then think that he's better than they do now.

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01-29-2012, 03:28 PM
  #275
Cyclones Rock
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Originally Posted by MathMan
Quote:
We've been pointing out that DD is being given very offensive minutes. His linemates are getting these minutes
as well. It stands to reason such favorable circumstances would boost their own production as well. It also bears pointing out that MaxPac was scoring goals at the exact same rate last season before it was cut short.
The differential between offensive zone and defensive zone face offs is highly skewed because of the lack of neutral zone faceoff inclusion. It's just not as big a deal as it appears many make of it. It matters, but it must be viewed in the context of all faceoffs in my opinion.

True about Max Pac's pace OVERALL. Last season Max Pac had 7 even strength and 7 PP goals. This season he has 16 ES goals and but one on the PP. The difference in ES production??? Seems to be pretty clear.



Quote:
Incorrect. They reward players whose teams attempt a lot of shots while they are on the ice, and also prevent opposition shot attempts. DD plays alongside Pacioretty and Cole, both of whom are top-30 in the whole league for shots on goal; obviously DD's puck control and passing factors into that, but the point is, the metrics will correctly award everyone on that line positive puck possession for all these shots.

The problem is that DD is a puck-possession neutral player despite the favorable circumstances in which he plays. This points to his primary problem: allowing too many shots against. Despite playing alongside two shot machines, DD has allowed essentially as many shot attempts against as he has for. His linemates are both heavily positive, pointing to the possibility that Cole and Pacioretty both are better at preventing shots against when they are not paired with DD.

This points us to the kind of player DD is: an excellent offensive contributor who still has issues in the defensive zone.



You might be interested to know that Pavel Datsyuk is a Corsi king. This stands to reason, after all; while he's holding the puck, neither side is shooting, and Datsyuk generates shots and shooting chances for while preventing against by holding the puck for so long. And he does so against first-line opposition every game. Truly, he is a fantastic puck-possession player -- and the metrics reflect that.

The reason the metrics don't look the same for DD is not because he plays some style of play that makes the metrics look bad, it is because he is just not that type of player. He is fantastic at what he does well, but he has real limitations at this stage of his career. The Habs' have been coaching to put him into the best position to succeed.

The bottom line: having a lot of points does not make you good at everything any more than having few points means you are bad at everything. DD is a tremendously useful player (let alone at his price point!) but it would behoove the observer to understand his limitations and why he is deployed the way he is. I really like DD, I've got a massive preference for athletes who succeed because of their brains, but he needs to improve some parts of his game.
[/QUOTE]


I guess I just don't have the faith in your metrics that you do. I'll take results over theory any day of the week. I see a player who leads a team in plus/minus, and has been on the ice for but one goal against in his last 9 games. I review every replay of his goals against and he appears to have made significant progress in his major deficiency. He had a tendency to "cheat" toward the blue line and that led to some blown coverages. With that repaired, when I watch him play, I guess I'm not seeing any glaring weaknesses in his defense anymore.

At the end of the day, his so-called "defensive liabilities" only appear to manifest themselves in the world of metrics; not on the scoreboard. At least what that appears to me.

EDIT: Multi quote format butchering. Poor fixing to boot


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 01-29-2012 at 03:38 PM.
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