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All David Desharnais talk here.

View Poll Results: Is Desharnais' future at center or wing?
Keep him at center long-term. Play him with two big wingers. 54 83.08%
Shift him to the wing. We need more size at center. We can't give him two big wingers. 3 4.62%
Keep him at center for next season. Draft a center this year and shift DD to wing when he comes up. 8 12.31%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-16-2012, 06:49 AM
  #951
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
It would be interesting what DD would do with other linemates just to see what he could do. I wouldn't be opposed to the experiment. If he continues to produce with others then it would mean we have quite a keeper. Can you imagine DD turning Bourque into a productive player?
this is how i feel.

but if i remember last year correctly, DD was producing at good rate until pouliot shutdown, sorta like bourque now. wiffing on every shot, everything in the goalie's chest and so on. i'd like to see it, but somehow i feel like i've seen it already...

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Old
03-16-2012, 07:22 AM
  #952
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Actually, it's completely different. GAA (and by that I assume you really meant SV%, but it doesn't matter) is a performance metric. If you play worse, it gets worse. If you play better, it gets better. The number of faceoffs taken simply provides a ratio of who the coach sends out in different situations in the different zones. It doesn't change no matter if you win or lose the faceoff, although if you start losing a lot of them, your coach may try to find someone else to take them for you.

And I guess, really, it's not all about the 25 extra offensive zone starts as Plekanec also has over 200 extra defensive zone starts. Instead of 1 every 3 games, that's 3 every game. Put those together and it's easy to see, even without actually watching, how the coach is using these two players differently. Desharnais starts slightly more often in the offensive zone, Plekanec starts way more often in the defensive zone... at the coach's direction, of course.
The obvious thing you guys are missing on faceoffs is that Plekanec kills a lot more penalties than DD, and is usually out on the first PK shift which, by definition, starts with a faceoff in the defensive zone. Pleks has spent 211 minutes killing penalties this year, DD has spent 33 minutes.

So there's the reason Pleks can't possibly have a higher offensive zone start than DD.

The flip side of this is the PP. Although the PP times are fairly close between the two, let's not forget that Pleks started the season on the blue line on the PP, and now plays the second unit. So for most of the season, DD has been the centre on the first PP shift. Which of course always starts with a faceoff in the o-zone.

PP faceoffs:

Plekanec = 132
Desharnais = 231

PK faceoffs:

Plekanec = 307
Desharnais = 32

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Old
03-16-2012, 11:00 AM
  #953
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I think some of you are missing the mark.

That's legit to say and think Plek is a better hockey player than DD. IMO, he is.

But, the Habs coach decided that IF he plays a line of

Max Pac - Plek - Cole

He'd have to use that line against the opposing 1st line, resulting in less goals scored than using

Max Pac - DD - Cole

against the opposing 2nd - 3rd - 4rth unit, resulting in more goals scored and using Plek centering a defensive line with some offensive upside (Bourque is supposed to be that ??6) against the opposing top line.

That's the point. That's RC's game plan. And that's completely understandable, even if the team is unsuccessfull.

But thinking about it a few seconds, this team's forwards group isn't really responsible for the terrible results, the defense IS. Icing 2 rookies (Emelin, DIaz), 2 sophomore (Subban, Weber) and 1 useless vet (Campoli) on a regular basis is the reason we're in the abyss. See, since Markov returned, the team suddenly is MUCH better. Amazing what a good / elite ? veteran defenseman can bring to a team.

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03-16-2012, 11:02 AM
  #954
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Well I think the lack of winger depth is hurting too, it's effecting possession.

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Old
03-16-2012, 11:34 AM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
The obvious thing you guys are missing on faceoffs is that Plekanec kills a lot more penalties than DD, and is usually out on the first PK shift which, by definition, starts with a faceoff in the defensive zone. Pleks has spent 211 minutes killing penalties this year, DD has spent 33 minutes.

So there's the reason Pleks can't possibly have a higher offensive zone start than DD.
Not quite "by definition", as plenty of penalties occur in the neutral zone, but you're right that since it's almost taboo to take "dumb" penalties in the offensive zone, there will be far more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts on the PK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
The flip side of this is the PP. Although the PP times are fairly close between the two, let's not forget that Pleks started the season on the blue line on the PP, and now plays the second unit. So for most of the season, DD has been the centre on the first PP shift. Which of course always starts with a faceoff in the o-zone.

PP faceoffs:

Plekanec = 132
Desharnais = 231

PK faceoffs:

Plekanec = 307
Desharnais = 32
And see, this is all I'm saying anyway (except for the same thing about PPs "always" starting in the offensive zone). Natey went out of his way to elaborate extensively about the offensive zone starts, but the point is more about how the relative proportions point to Pleks being used in a secondary scoring role (duh) but absolutely the primary defensive role (again, duh), and that Plekanec's offensive production is surprisingly high compared to DD's considering his linemates AND how much more often he starts 180 feet away from the other net. After all, it's Plekanec that's getting ragged on for having a "bad" season or being "expendable" by some because of the numbers DD is putting up, and that's the population that needs more information, not you guys.

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03-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #956
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Play DD with Pacioretty and Bourque, Plekanec with Cole and Gionta, and Eller with Moen and Leblanc. However, I'd shift Gionta to the LW. I just love Cole on the right.

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03-16-2012, 11:59 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
I think some of you are missing the mark.

That's legit to say and think Plek is a better hockey player than DD. IMO, he is.

But, the Habs coach decided that IF he plays a line of

Max Pac - Plek - Cole

He'd have to use that line against the opposing 1st line, resulting in less goals scored than using

Max Pac - DD - Cole

against the opposing 2nd - 3rd - 4rth unit, resulting in more goals scored and using Plek centering a defensive line with some offensive upside (Bourque is supposed to be that ??6) against the opposing top line.

That's the point. That's RC's game plan. And that's completely understandable, even if the team is unsuccessfull.

But thinking about it a few seconds, this team's forwards group isn't really responsible for the terrible results, the defense IS. Icing 2 rookies (Emelin, DIaz), 2 sophomore (Subban, Weber) and 1 useless vet (Campoli) on a regular basis is the reason we're in the abyss. See, since Markov returned, the team suddenly is MUCH better. Amazing what a good / elite ? veteran defenseman can bring to a team.
The main problem people have with that strategy is that it's not working. We are one of the worst possession team in the league with that strategy. Trying the same thing over and over again while it's pretty clear it's not working is pretty stupid.

And while I agree the lack of depth of D has been a problem, RC's failure to put a real two way tough minutes unit that could have helped hide that problem has also been one (especially since, as Mathman said, it seems like Pac-Plek-Cole has the ability to play those minutes without Subban-Gorges thus pretty much covering all the tough minutes + the other strategy wasn't working anyway). The goal in hockey isn't simply to score goals, it's actually to outscore the opposition. To do that you need to both score goals and prevent goal against and Pac-Plek-Cole can out chance tough opposition (without Subban-Gorges, seriously that's huge, all are line usually get killed the second Subban gets of the ice). And Bourque is actually supposed to be an offensive minded third liner, he needs soft minutes to produce.

And, I wouldn't say getting outshot 89-106 is playing well, it's not a substainable way to win hockey games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not quite "by definition", as plenty of penalties occur in the neutral zone, but you're right that since it's almost taboo to take "dumb" penalties in the offensive zone, there will be far more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts on the PK.



And see, this is all I'm saying anyway (except for the same thing about PPs "always" starting in the offensive zone). Natey went out of his way to elaborate extensively about the offensive zone starts, but the point is more about how the relative proportions point to Pleks being used in a secondary scoring role (duh) but absolutely the primary defensive role (again, duh), and that Plekanec's offensive production is surprisingly high compared to DD's considering his linemates AND how much more often he starts 180 feet away from the other net. After all, it's Plekanec that's getting ragged on for having a "bad" season or being "expendable" by some because of the numbers DD is putting up, and that's the population that needs more information, not you guys.
Not to mention, those zone start stats only include EV faceoffs.

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Old
03-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not quite "by definition", as plenty of penalties occur in the neutral zone, but you're right that since it's almost taboo to take "dumb" penalties in the offensive zone, there will be far more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts on the PK.
Except that the first faceoff on a penalty kill is in the PK team's defensive end. It's in the rule book. So every PK starts in the D zone, every PP starts in the PP. (With very few exceptions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
The main problem people have with that strategy is that it's not working. We are one of the worst possession team in the league with that strategy. Trying the same thing over and over again while it's pretty clear it's not working is pretty stupid.
Not that I don't believe you, but are there any stats to back up the claim that we're one of the worst puck possession teams in the NHL?

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03-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #959
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Not to mention, those zone start stats only include EV faceoffs.
Hahaha, really? Well there ya go. That makes the difference even greater then.

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03-16-2012, 12:44 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hahaha, really? Well there ya go. That makes the difference even greater then.
Why would Plekanec get more PP faceoffs than Desharnais?

DD is 56% on the PP while Plekanec is like 45%.

Pleks plays 2nd unit. If he can't get the puck into the zone then there as a problem anyway when the other team is down a man.

Anyway, Pleks PP zone start is 3% lower, that's it. So he starts quite a bit in the offensive zone on the PP anyway.

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03-16-2012, 01:15 PM
  #961
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I'm a DD believer, and thus I would like to see him play with Bourque and get him going. Since the DD doubters and Bourque haters seem to be the same people, I wonder who will get the credit if it's successful?

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03-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #962
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Since 12/29, Plekanec's offensive production is 16 points (5a11a) compared to DD's 34 points (11g23a). He is producing at less than 50% of DD's rate over what amounts to half a season's time frame. Plekanec has not had an ES goal in 13 games nor an ES assist in 14 games. Since 12/29 his ES production is 7 points (2g5a). This ES production would amount to 17 ES points over an 82 game season.

Eller has produced two assists in the 24 games in which he has played since his 4 goal outburst (He's also had 5 goals). He has not had an ES assist in 23 games. His overall production is 15 points (11g4a) since 12/29.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 03-16-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old
03-16-2012, 03:27 PM
  #963
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The breakdown on DD's 34 point/33 game streak:

ES....9g 11a 82 game pace...50 ES points
PP....2g 12a 82 game pace...35 PP points

He's been on an 85 point seasonal pace over his last 33 games.

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Old
03-16-2012, 03:33 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Since 12/29, Plekanec's offensive production is 16 points (5a11a) compared to DD's 34 points (11g23a). He is producing at less than 50% of DD's rate over what amounts to half a season's time frame. Plekanec has not had an ES goal in 13 games nor an ES assist in 14 games. Since 12/29 his ES production is 7 points (2g5a). This ES production would amount to 17 ES points over an 82 game season.

Eller has produced two assists in the 24 games in which he has played since his 4 goal outburst (He's also had 5 goals). He has not had an ES assist in 23 games. His overall production is 15 points (11g4a) since 12/29.
problem when only looking at the stat sheet is that you ignore other variables like quality of linemates. plekanec, while not having a great season, has played with absoluted scrubs for a while now while still playing the hardest minutes on the team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
The breakdown on DD's 34 point/33 game streak:

ES....9g 11a 82 game pace...50 ES points
PP....2g 12a 82 game pace...35 PP points

He's been on an 85 point seasonal pace over his last 33 games.
great, but :samplesize:

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Old
03-16-2012, 03:44 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
problem when only looking at the stat sheet is that you ignore other variables like quality of linemates. plekanec, while not having a great season, has played with absoluted scrubs for a while now while still playing the hardest minutes on the team...



great, but :samplesize:
I was just curious to see what the comparisons between the centers was. I just posted them for others to see.

The sample size amounts to 40% of a season for what that's worth.

It is interesting (at least to me anyway) that had DD maintained this pace over the course of the season, that he'd be a top 5 or 6 scorer in the league. I understand that if I extrapolated the best pace of others in the league over their best 33 games, then that wouldn't be the case.

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03-16-2012, 04:02 PM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Since 12/29, Plekanec's offensive production is 16 points (5a11a) compared to DD's 34 points (11g23a). He is producing at less than 50% of DD's rate over what amounts to half a season's time frame. Plekanec has not had an ES goal in 13 games nor an ES assist in 14 games. Since 12/29 his ES production is 7 points (2g5a). This ES production would amount to 17 ES points over an 82 game season.

Eller has produced two assists in the 24 games in which he has played since his 4 goal outburst (He's also had 5 goals). He has not had an ES assist in 23 games. His overall production is 15 points (11g4a) since 12/29.
Huge DD fan. Everyone knows that.

But Pleks and Eller's production is down because of OUR LACK OF DEPTH ON WING.

This center comparison garbage is getting stupid. We have three very solid solid centres. A couple of #1 guys and a #3 type guy in Eller (who would be a #2 guy with some better wingers).

Our problem is, outside of Cole/Patches we have nothing with Gionta hurt.

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03-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #967
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I'm sick of people saying Pleks played with scrbs all of the year that's not even true.

He is playing with scrubs right now tho.

But first month of the season he had cam and cole after that cam and gionta and after he had Kostitsyn and Cammalleri.

It's not our fault if Gauthier decided to get rid of all the depth we had on the wing and it's Plekanec that suffering because we can't ice 2 offensive line anymore.

Dd is playing really well against oppositions Plekanec and owning them 5 nights out of 6. He's not playing against the Sedins of this league but he sure plays against the Keslers and he's winning at that.

Joe Juneau once played against opposition top lines for us and it didn't mean he should have been used with our best wingers at the time.

The fact is Plekanec doesn't create anything in the offensive zone and that's not just because of his teammates.

He is a work horse that gets the majority of his points during the 50 60 first game of the season because he comes in in mid season shape but when the other team adjust to that level... Plekanec is ALWAYS invisible. It's been the case for the last 3 years.

DD is playing with Pacioretty and Cole because he's earned it and not because he can't play defensively.

No wonder why we chase all our talent out of town, we are expecting way too much of everyone. News Flash... DD is not the best player in the league but he's doing a fine job centering our 1 st line so just be happy about it instead of ripping on all the part of his game that he needs to improve.

No wonder why we all like the Gorges and Moen and Darche of this world... Their ceiling is not very high so we don't have to expect anything.

Some of us even tried to run Subban out of town because he wasn't perfect... He was still playing 30 minutes a night against oppositions best

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03-17-2012, 03:01 PM
  #968
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I was looking at some stats and just realized that David Desharnais has more points than Alex Ovechkin.

If somebody went ahead and said at the beginning of the season that by march DD would have more points than OV he would have been laughed off the boards.

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03-17-2012, 03:40 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by Intense View Post
I was looking at some stats and just realized that David Desharnais has more points than Alex Ovechkin.

If somebody went ahead and said at the beginning of the season that by march DD would have more points than OV he would have been laughed off the boards.
Well yes, but I'm not surprised DD is getting around 50pts. What is crazy is Ovie having only 53pts.
Ovie will bounce back next year though, no doubt about it.

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03-17-2012, 03:58 PM
  #970
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Well yes, but I'm not surprised DD is getting around 50pts. What is crazy is Ovie having only 53pts.
Ovie will bounce back next year though, no doubt about it.
That's what I was thinking last year too ...

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03-17-2012, 04:56 PM
  #971
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Play DD with Pacioretty and Bourque, Plekanec with Cole and Gionta, and Eller with Moen and Leblanc. However, I'd shift Gionta to the LW. I just love Cole on the right.
This should be tried.
Unless we can sign a better winger than Bourque (and Moen...), so it would end up

Pac - DD - Winger
Cole - Plek - Gionta
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
Moen - whatever - White/Darche/Staubitz

(that is obviously if we don't want the Eller line to be a pure shutdown line)

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03-18-2012, 12:07 PM
  #972
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
This should be tried.
Unless we can sign a better winger than Bourque (and Moen...), so it would end up

Pac - DD - Winger
Cole - Plek - Gionta
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
Moen - whatever - White/Darche/Staubitz

(that is obviously if we don't want the Eller line to be a pure shutdown line)
I actually like Cole on the right side, so I'd try Gionta with DD and Max, and find a "real" LW for Pleks and Cole. The rest you have there is fine with me (I also like the idea of Leblanc as Eller's RWer).

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03-18-2012, 12:47 PM
  #973
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
This should be tried.
Unless we can sign a better winger than Bourque (and Moen...), so it would end up

Pac - DD - Winger
Cole - Plek - Gionta
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
Moen - whatever - White/Darche/Staubitz

(that is obviously if we don't want the Eller line to be a pure shutdown line)
Nash or Ryan.... please !

Or trade Bourque for Havlat and play him with Plek and Gionta.

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03-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #974
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Baller!!!
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File Type: jpg david-desharnais-3-e1294126245977.jpg‎ (63.4 KB, 23 views)

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03-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #975
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Baller!!!
That t-shirt is unreal.

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