I have a hard time believing this. It's only the 2nd season, and just week and half ago Edmonton Journal said EDM is looking at getting their ECHL team somewhere Close to OKC. I also wouldn't say its been a total failure. They sat out 4,000 avg. Last season, and OKC had 4,100. Edmonton will give it more time than this, so maybe after 4-5 years I could see them exploring elsewhere.
OKC's front office has a lot of issues with how they handle things, but they swear to fans that their structure is built for long term success, not short so they tell us to give it time. Players like playing here, its a great city and Oilers brass has made that known, so if OKC can keep around a 4,000 avg. Over 5 years I doubt this happens, or maybe I just hope it doesn't. Nonetheless have to just wait and see I Guess.
I'm curious about this point and what you feel should be done differently or what the problems are.
This is a very good AHL club and one thats been dominant on the ice. The product alone should be getting more fans in the seats. One would think a market the size of Oklahoma could support the club better than this. Sometimes the failure is just general disinterest within the market which seems to be the case. Not saying it is but what gives?
Did the Oilers spend the money to fix up the Cox Convention Center, or was it that Funk guy?
Fort Wayne is a lot closer to most of the AHL teams.
As far as I know the city paid for all of those renovations, not the Oilers. The Oilers did consult and oversee the building of the locker room / work out facilities and made sure they were one of the best in AHL.
I think the Oil are there for quite some time. From nearly everything I can tell they are extremely pleased with OKC having their farm team.
As I understand it the Oil own the team, pay the players and coaching / medical staff, GM. Outside of that they have nothing to do with advertisement, tickets sales, arena operating costs etc... So honestly that part does not really effect them a whole lot. It is Funk's group that has the contract with the city and has to pay the day to day bills and receives the ticket / concession / parking monies (though they may share that with the city for all I know).
Last edited by Oilerdiehard: 02-07-2012 at 09:43 PM.
I'm curious about this point and what you feel should be done differently or what the problems are.
This is a very good AHL club and one thats been dominant on the ice. The product alone should be getting more fans in the seats. One would think a market the size of Oklahoma could support the club better than this. Sometimes the failure is just general disinterest within the market which seems to be the case. Not saying it is but what gives?
There was a sentiment as well the first half of the season would see higher attendance with the NBA (Thunder play across the street) on strike. Then it picks up a little after Christmas when college football shuts down. Thought this might be a nice attendance year for them the way some local fans were talking.
Having said that I liked what they did with their huge banners on the arena, that apparently are visible from a major highway route. Recently I seen the poster from on here Hockeyfan4Life post on his twitter that he was seeing / hearing Barons adverts on nearly every station lately. So apparently they are stepping things up a bit with trying to attract more fans.
There was a sentiment as well the first half of the season would see higher attendance with the NBA (Thunder play across the street) on strike. Then it picks up a little after Christmas when college football shuts down. Thought this might be a nice attendance year for them the way some local fans were talking.
Having said that I liked what they did with their huge banners on the arena, that apparently are visible from a major highway route. Recently I seen the poster from on here Hockeyfan4Life post on his twitter that he was seeing / hearing Barons adverts on nearly every station lately. So apparently they are stepping things up a bit with trying to attract more fans.
Thanks ODH. The Org has put together some decent depth and support players and the AHL club has been fairly stacked this year.
One would think a very good product and hopefully it will all come around.
From what I've heard of the building and entertainment district there the fan experience would be better in OKC than it arguably is at Rexall on most nights.
As far as I know the city paid for all of those renovations, not the Oilers. The Oilers did consult and oversee the building of the locker room / work out facilities and made sure they were one of the best in AHL.
I think the Oil are there for quite some time. From nearly everything I can tell they are extremely pleased with OKC having their farm team.
As I understand it the Oil own the team, pay the players and coaching / medical staff, GM. Outside of that they have nothing to do with advertisement, tickets sales, arena operating costs etc... So honestly that part does not really effect them a whole lot. It is Funk's group that has the contract with the city and has to pay the day to day bills and receives the ticket / concession / parking monies (though they may share that with the city for all I know).
Needless to say I don't know the ins and outs of the business arrangement, but the Oilers absolutely own the franchise. Like all of the AHL teams, with the exception of Hershey and Chicago, the NHL parent club pays the salaries of all players, coaches, etc. That said part of owning a team is also owning the business side of things so I would be shocked if they don't get ticket revenues, advertising revenue, etc. If they don't, then where do the Oilers make any money off the franchise? Under what you are saying money goes out and no money comes in.
Now, if the Funks owned the franchise, which they absolutely do not, then the Oilers would pay what I mentioned above, but in return would get an affiliation fee from the Funks, so there would be money coming back in from there, but the Funks then would have complete control over the business side of things and any revenues that come in from tickets, advertising, etc.
With regards to attendance in the AHL, yes, it does typically pick up after football season is over. However, looking around the league, the Barons have the worst attendance record, by far, of winning teams. Even typically weaker drawing teams like Connecticut, Bridgeport and Toronto are outdrawing the Barons by well over 1000 per game. If I'm in charge of any ticket sales in OKC and I see my team is drawing only 3700 per game despite a winning percentage of nearly .700 I'm very concerned. If a dominating team doesn't bring the fans out I'm afraid that nothing will. Just think how bad attendance would be if the team was doing poorly.
It is pretty stupid to call the Barons a "serious failure", just like it is kind of dumb to call the Blazers an icon of minor league hockey or whatever, on a given night half the people there were there for free (unlike the Barons, who try and get money for every ticket).
It should also probably be noted that the downtown OKC area has been badly torn up for construction since the franchise started; once this pretty substantial project gets finished the area should be a pretty great place to visit. It'll always be subordinate to college football and the NBA, but there's no reason at all to think the team is going away any time soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Needless to say I don't know the ins and outs of the business arrangement, but the Oilers absolutely own the franchise.
Are you saying the Oilers "own" the Barons? If so, that isn't accurate. The ownership group is Prodigal Hockey (Funk and friends). They own the team's lease, all related IP, and a handful of contracts (the AHL-only contracts, like Helmer). The Oilers own and pay for all of the players on two-way contracts, along with some portion of the support staff. Prodigal in turn pays a flat fee of some sort to the Oilers.
Are you saying the Oilers "own" the Barons? If so, that isn't accurate. The ownership group is Prodigal Hockey (Funk and friends). They own the team's lease, all related IP, and a handful of contracts (the AHL-only contracts, like Helmer). The Oilers own and pay for all of the players on two-way contracts, along with some portion of the support staff. Prodigal in turn pays a flat fee of some sort to the Oilers.
The Oilers own the AHL franchise that plays in Oklahoma City. The franchise used to be the Edmonton Road Runners that then went dormant, but the franchise is owned by the Oilers. I have not seen any reports where the Oilers have transferred the ownershp to anyone. If you have a report indicating that the Oilers did in fact sell the franchise I'd be interested in seeing it.
Here is the original press release about the Oilers and OKC
"The Edmonton Oilers announced today the American Hockey League Board of Governors has approved the relocation of the Oilers’ inactive AHL franchise from Edmonton, Alberta to Oklahoma City for the 2010-11 hockey season."
On the Barons website, here is what is on Bob Funk Jr's bio
"Bob Funk Jr. is owner and president of Prodigal and Prodigal Hockey LLC, a local sports marketing company that operates the Oklahoma City Barons franchise in Oklahoma City".
So, yes, Bob Funk Jr owns Prodigal Hockey LLC, but Prodigal Hockey LLC does not own the Barons. They operate the Barons. Big difference there. Again, I don't know the business arrangement and don't claim to, but my guess is that the Oilers pay a fee to Prodigal to run the business side of the Barons, but the actual revenues of the Barons go to the Oilers. Again, otherwise where is the money coming in for the Oilers? This is not an arrangement where the local ownership group owns the franchise and pays an affiliation fee to the NHL parent club (examples such as Springfield/Columbus, Hershey/Washington, Portland/Phoenix, San Antonio/Florida, Norfolk/Tampa, Chicago/Vancouver, Syracuse/Anaheim, Binghamton/Ottawa, Hamilton/Montreal, Lake Erie/Colorado, Milwaukee/Nashville, Providence/Boston).
I'd also be very surprised if they don't pay for the AHL-only contracts (Helmer and LeNeveu) as well since that is the norm in the league.
Last edited by pelts35.com: 02-08-2012 at 09:49 AM.
The Oilers own the AHL franchise that plays in Oklahoma City as far as I know. The franchise used to be the Edmonton Road Runners that then went dormant, but the franchise is owned by the Oilers. I have not seen any reports where the Oilers have transferred the ownershp to anyone. If you have a report indicating that the Oilers did in fact sell the franchise I'd be interested in seeing it.
Here is the original press release about the Oilers and OKC
"The Edmonton Oilers announced today the American Hockey League Board of Governors has approved the relocation of the Oilers’ inactive AHL franchise from Edmonton, Alberta to Oklahoma City for the 2010-11 hockey season."
Well, the wiki page is a good place to start. I'm not sure what you're reading that says anything about the Oilers owning their AHL team, just that they've transferred the franchise affiliation to the Barons' ownership group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
This is not an arrangement where the local ownership group owns the franchise and pays an affiliation fee to the NHL parent club
Actually that's exactly what it is:
"The Edmonton Oilers will handle the Hockey Operations of the franchise while Robert Funk and his ownership group will handle the business side of things. The arrangement is that Robert Funk will pay a flat fee to the Oilers for the next five years and that will entitle his ownership group to receive ticket and sponsorship revenues."
Well, the wiki page is a good place to start. I'm not sure what you're reading that says anything about the Oilers owning their AHL team, just that they've transferred the franchise affiliation to the Barons' ownership group.
I would never used Wiki as a reliable source for anthing, however, you're not sure what I'm reading? Go back and read the release again please.
The Oilers reloated their franchise (key word is their as in the possessive because the Oilers own the franchise) to Oklahoma City (if they didn't own the franchise they could not relocate it). They did not transfer the ownership of their franchise to Prodigal nor did they sign an affiliation agreement with Prodigal. The Oilers own the franchise.
Quote:
Actually that's exactly what it is:
"The Edmonton Oilers will handle the Hockey Operations of the franchise while Robert Funk and his ownership group will handle the business side of things. The arrangement is that Robert Funk will pay a flat fee to the Oilers for the next five years and that will entitle his ownership group to receive ticket and sponsorship revenues."
Actually you just proved my point, thank you. I see now what the arrangment is. The Oilers are only responsible for hockey ops and expenses that go along with that while Prodigal handles the business ops. Prodigal then pays the Oilers a fee in exchange for receiving revenues that come from the team. This is not the same thing as Prodigal owning the Barons. Prodigal simply runs the business operations, they do not have any ownership of the Edmonton Oilers AHL franchise.
There is nothing what you posted that indicates that the Oilers sold their franchise to Prodigal. All you did provide support that Prodigal runs the business operations for the franchise. Operating a franchise and owning it are not the same thing. The Oilers pay Prodigal to operate the franchise.
All of this said if (and I'm not saying they will) the Oilers want to leave Oklahoma City in favor of Fort Wayne or anywhere else, they can do so because they own the franchise. Of course there may be legal/financial repercussions, but as the owner of the AHL franchise they can move it as they see fit.
Last edited by pelts35.com: 02-08-2012 at 10:36 AM.
Actually you just proved my point, thank you. I see now what the arrangment is. The Oilers are only responsible for hockey ops and expenses that go along with that while Prodigal handles the business ops. Prodigal then pays the Oilers a fee in exchange for receiving revenues that come from the team. This is not the same thing as Prodigal owning the Barons. Prodigal does not own the franchise, the Oilers do.
You're arguing that "Robert Funk and his ownership group" do not "own" the Barons. I...see. What exactly does the ownership group own, then?
As I said earlier, you're conflating the AHL affiliation with ownership.
Also this is kind of interesting for anyone who wants to see how a lease agreement looks:
Note on there that an NHL affiliation is a key parameter of the contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
All of this said if (and I'm not saying they will) the Oilers want to leave Oklahoma City in favor of Fort Wayne or anywhere else, they can do so because they own the franchise. Of course there may be legal/financial repercussions, but as the owner of the AHL franchise they can move it as they see fit.
They can move their affiliation to a different team or location if they want to. Again, this is what seems to be confusing you.
Note on there that an NHL affiliation is a key parameter of the contract.
They can move their affiliation to a different team or location if they want to. Again, this is what seems to be confusing you.
I'm not sure what "conflating" means, but I'm not confusing anything. I've been following the AHL for over 15 years and I know the difference between an affilation agreement and an NHL team owning their own franchise thank you very much.
Funk owns Prodigal Hockey who operates the Barons. Operating a team and owning it are not the same thing.
The Edmonton Oilers own the AHL franchise, not Prodigal.
Nowhere in the lease that you provided a link for does the word Edmonton Oilers or Oklahoma City Barons appear, but Prodigal does. Why? Because Prodigal doesn't own the franchise. They run the business operations, which includes the lease, they do not own the Barons.
The Oilers moved their franchise to Oklahoma City. They moved it there because they own it and they can move it again if they so choose.
Prior to activating their franchise the Oilers did have an affiliation agreement with the Springfield Falcons, who owns an AHL franchise. Prodigal does not own an AHL franchise. If the Oilers leave, another AHL team cannot relocate to OKC unless one of two things happens.
1. The team moving in has an AHL franchise that they can move
2. Prodigal purchases an AHL franchise.
Nothing is confusing me. I completely understand how this works. I can't say the same for you since you keep insisting that Prodigal owns an AHL franchise when they don't.
Feel free to keep posting, but I'm done here unless you prove that the Oilers have transferred ownership of the AHL franchise to Prodigal. If you can then I will apologize for being wrong.
Last edited by pelts35.com: 02-08-2012 at 10:57 AM.
Founded by Daryl Katz in 1990 and headquartered in Edmonton, the Katz Group is one of Canada’s largest privately- owned companies with operations in the pharmacy, sports & entertainment, and real estate development sectors. In addition to the company’s North American pharmacy operations, which operate primarily under the Rexall, PharmaPlus, Guardian, IDA and Medicine Shoppe banners, the Katz Group owns the Edmonton Oilers (NHL), Edmonton Oil Kings (WHL), Oklahoma City Barons (AHL) and the Edmonton Capitals (NAL), as well as Aquila Productions, one of Canada’s leading entertainment and event companies. Through its wholly-owned C&H group of companies, the Katz Group is involved in land assembly, site and building development, and the operation of multiple development projects in Canada and the US.
"Bob Funk Jr. is owner and president of Prodigal and Prodigal Hockey LLC, a local sports marketing company that operates the Oklahoma City Barons franchise in Oklahoma City."
It does not say he is the owner of the Barons and it specifically says that Prodigal Hockey LLC operates the Barons. If Prodigal Hockey LLC owned the Barons there would be no reason to state this and it would simply state that Bob Funk Jr is the owner and president of the Oklahoma City Barons, but it doesn't. Once again, operating the Barons and owning the Barons are not the same thing.
Thank you to Oilphan for posting what the Katz Group owns. To add to this in case bewbies still has any questions, I found this link
"Over the past three years, Rexall Sports Corporation has continued to grow and succeed adding new teams to the portfolio including the Edmonton Oil Kings, Capitals and the Oklahoma City Barons"
So, to wrap this up, the Katz Group, who owns Rexall Sports Corporation, who owns the Oilers, owns the Oklahoma City Barons. Prodigal Hockey LLC has no ownership in the AHL franchise, they simply operate it.
So, bewbies, that is how things are, except to you. Have a great day!
Last edited by pelts35.com: 02-08-2012 at 01:39 PM.
Yeah, there's a difference between owning an AHL franchise and simply having an affilitation agreement with them.
The Oilers did not own the Springfield Falcons, but did however own the rights to the Toronto/Edmonton Roadrunners. They collapsed that team in 2005 so as to not conflict with the Edmonton Oilers post-lockout. Their "franchise rights" however were never gone, they simply choose to remain on a simple affiliation agreement for the next four seasons.
The OKC Barons are nothing more than the Edmonton Roadrunners reactivated and moved to OKC. Prodigal operates the team and does a lot of the same things as an ownership group would in a simpler situation, but as I understand it, the franchise rights are ABSOLUTELY the Oilers.
Basically, the team is either collapsed or moves with them. I'm not sure of the legalities, but I'd venture a guess and say that Prodigal has a contract for a certain number of years.
Yeah, there's a difference between owning an AHL franchise and simply having an affilitation agreement with them.
The Oilers did not own the Springfield Falcons, but did however own the rights to the Toronto/Edmonton Roadrunners. They collapsed that team in 2005 so as to not conflict with the Edmonton Oilers post-lockout. Their "franchise rights" however were never gone, they simply choose to remain on a simple affiliation agreement for the next four seasons.
The OKC Barons are nothing more than the Edmonton Roadrunners reactivated and moved to OKC. Prodigal operates the team and does a lot of the same things as an ownership group would in a simpler situation, but as I understand it, the franchise rights are ABSOLUTELY the Oilers.
Basically, the team is either collapsed or moves with them. I'm not sure of the legalities, but I'd venture a guess and say that Prodigal has a contract for a certain number of years.
Yeah, there's a difference between owning an AHL franchise and simply having an affilitation agreement with them.
The Oilers did not own the Springfield Falcons, but did however own the rights to the Toronto/Edmonton Roadrunners. They collapsed that team in 2005 so as to not conflict with the Edmonton Oilers post-lockout. Their "franchise rights" however were never gone, they simply choose to remain on a simple affiliation agreement for the next four seasons.
The OKC Barons are nothing more than the Edmonton Roadrunners reactivated and moved to OKC. Prodigal operates the team and does a lot of the same things as an ownership group would in a simpler situation, but as I understand it, the franchise rights are ABSOLUTELY the Oilers.
Basically, the team is either collapsed or moves with them. I'm not sure of the legalities, but I'd venture a guess and say that Prodigal has a contract for a certain number of years.
Perhaps now that 2 others have posted that prodigal hockey doesn't own the barons he will admit he was wrong.
That said I'm sure that prodigal and the oilers have an agreement in place that would include penalties if either side wanted to leave the agreement early.
Move along, nothing to see here. This Heisler clown who posted this is about as drifty as they come. His rumors are rarely ever correct, yet he states his sources are always "dead-on."
Fort Wayne has a couple of articles about this. It appears that when the Oilers were looking for their next market they contacted Fort Wayne, but ultimately decided on OKC instead.
Needless to say I don't know the ins and outs of the business arrangement, but the Oilers absolutely own the franchise. Like all of the AHL teams, with the exception of Hershey and Chicago, the NHL parent club pays the salaries of all players, coaches, etc. That said part of owning a team is also owning the business side of things so I would be shocked if they don't get ticket revenues, advertising revenue, etc. If they don't, then where do the Oilers make any money off the franchise? Under what you are saying money goes out and no money comes in.
Now, if the Funks owned the franchise, which they absolutely do not, then the Oilers would pay what I mentioned above, but in return would get an affiliation fee from the Funks, so there would be money coming back in from there, but the Funks then would have complete control over the business side of things and any revenues that come in from tickets, advertising, etc.
With regards to attendance in the AHL, yes, it does typically pick up after football season is over. However, looking around the league, the Barons have the worst attendance record, by far, of winning teams. Even typically weaker drawing teams like Connecticut, Bridgeport and Toronto are outdrawing the Barons by well over 1000 per game. If I'm in charge of any ticket sales in OKC and I see my team is drawing only 3700 per game despite a winning percentage of nearly .700 I'm very concerned. If a dominating team doesn't bring the fans out I'm afraid that nothing will. Just think how bad attendance would be if the team was doing poorly.
Yes you are right, sorry about that, I forgot to mention the affiliation fee that Funks must have to pay to the Oilers. Obviously that is not really dependent on ticket sales, though of course if the Funks have no ticket sales it is harder to pay that up front fee. Not sure what it is these days, but I remember hearing 4 or 5 years back it was a million bucks or a little more, something like that. Obviously that really only covers some of the player salaries (not uncommon for good AHL vets to make a quarter million for one player), but not even all of that. Like I said though I do not know what the fee is these days.
Obviously attendance is not wonderful. The Barons currently pull in a little over 1 thousand less fans than the teams in the middle of the pack. I guess we will have to see down the stretch if they can close that gap a little bit or not. I think one of the problems likely was the Barons came in at the height of the economy taking a dive and their ticket prices are obviously a fair bit higher than the CHL pro hockey team it replaced. A lot of people had less extra money to spend on a new, more expensive product. But hopefully it will keep building. If the Barons can up their average game attendance by even say 250ish fans per game, that would put them 1 thousand fans up on the last place club in attendance.
It could be better but I do not see the situation being dire at all. The Oiler owner made a commitment before going to OKC to spending more money on the farm league system. So I do not think he is fretting over the extra money paid beyond the affiliation fee. In fact there was a Sun article recently that the Oil may be looking to buy an ECHL team as geographically close as possible to Oklahoma City. If that is true clearly they plan to stay for a while.
With regards to the affiliation fee, I am with you as it used to be around a million, but I'm not sure where it is now. I think it's safe to say that neither the Oilers or Prodigal Hockey are making a killing and both sides are probably losing money, especially Prodigal.
Since I'm not there I don't know the answer, how much more are the Barons tickets compared to the Blazers tickets? That said I'd like to think that the Funks did enough market research to know that if they raised their ticket prices by $x that they would at least maintain a respectable attendance level.
Sure, the economy tanking plays a part of declining attendance, but 10 years ago the Blazers drew close to 9000 per game. Today, with a dominant team, they are averaging under 3800 (if the team was average to below average imagine where they'd be). That's a decline of over 5000!
Is the situation "dire"? Not yet, but if attendance doesn't improve over the next couple of seasons it will be. I can't imagine that Prodigal Hockey would renew their arrangement with the Oilers if attendance isn't at least at the AHL average.
As for an ECHL team, I'm not sure how good of an idea that would be. Assuming the CHL survives, that is better geographical fit than the ECHL is as they have no teams in that part of the country.
Funny how bewbies has disappeared from this thread.
I remember when our former radio celebrity "The Warrior" argued that a team in OKC would easily draw 10,000 fans a game.
I hope the situation there improves, but there's only so much the Oilers can do to get people to come out. You've had legit star prospects, you have the best team in the AHL. There's just no excuse for having little to no turnout, other than general lack of interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29
So basically this guy is like Northlands?
Well, Northlands just manages the building for the City, they have nothing to do with the day-to-day on the hockey game. Prodigal is a private organization who I believe have more to do with managing the finances of the team itself.
Basically, from what I understand, AHL business is structured differently than NHL business, so it's hard to make an easy analogy. Prodigal and Katz are partners here, but Katz is the franchise owner.
I remember when our former radio celebrity "The Warrior" argued that a team in OKC would easily draw 10,000 fans a game.
I hope the situation there improves, but there's only so much the Oilers can do to get people to come out. You've had legit star prospects, you have the best team in the AHL. There's just no excuse for having little to no turnout, other than general lack of interest.
I agree with you 100%. Since Prodigal handles the business ops it's not up to the Oilers to bring out the fans other than putting a winning team on the ice. It's up to Prodigal to do the marketing to bring the fans out, which they have not. And, given that Prodigal makes the money off of ticket, advertising, etc, they are the ones who suffer by poor attendance. As I have posted before, just having a winning team typically brings out the casual fan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13
Well, Northlands just manages the building for the City, they have nothing to do with the day-to-day on the hockey game. Prodigal is a private organization who I believe have more to do with managing the finances of the team itself.
Basically, from what I understand, AHL business is structured differently than NHL business, so it's hard to make an easy analogy. Prodigal and Katz are partners here, but Katz is the franchise owner.
Prodigal basically handles all of the business operations for the Barons. Loosely translated, anything that isn't related to hockey operations is handled by Prodigal Hockey LLC.
