A lot of debate is made about the Kessel trade in regards to Seguin and Hamilton considering that is what the picks turned out to be.
What I've been wondering over the last few days is whether the Kessel trade helped the Bruins improve their team beyond these two picks.
Essentially what I'm getting at is this.
The two firsts and the second allowed Boston to be more liberal with their own picks. Their 2010 1st round pick was used to acquire Horton, while their own 2011 pick was then flipped for Kaberle. I think both helped with their cup run(even karberle despite all the negativity he got, I still thought he brought stability to the bottom pairing).
Would the Bruins have been so liberal with their 1st round picks had they not had "backup" ones is the question I'm asking because I think that when reviewing the Kessel trade, this should also be considered.
The Kessel trade allowed the Bruins many options. As you pointed out we used our 1st's to acquire extra talent for our big club. The Bruins weren't prepared to pay Kessel what he wanted and Kessel didn't seem to want to stay in Boston. It paid off in spades for the Bruins and the leafs got a top line talent they needed. It's a trade that benefited both teams very well.
I am pretty sure when the trade was made neither GM realized just how much the Leafs were going to stink. My guess is the Bruins were expexting the picks to be more early mid round (10 to 15) and not the 2nd overall for Seguin's draft year.
I think the Bruins also got lucky with Dougie. Think it was the Jets (or Ottawa) that went with the dark horse which dropped Hamilton into the Bruins laps. Chia looked like the cat that at the canary when he called Dougie's name.
What matters is he didn't want to be here so we had to make a trade. It working out for us was dumb luck.
I wouldn't call it luck, considering that many people of HF that year thought the Leafs were going to be a lottery team, even after the Kessel trade. The leafs didn't look good on paper at all and it reflected in their play as well.
My question is though, do you think Chiarelli would have been as liberal with Boston's first round picks had he not had "back-up" picks. Do you think he would have flipped the first for Horton had he not had Toronto's first? Likewise for Kaberle.
I don't think there's any debate that the answer to your specific question is yes. I'm pretty sure Chiarelli even said as much. There's a ton of luck that goes into getting Seguin and Hamilton; if those picks had ended up at 15 two years in a row, I'm sure the Bruins would be without Horton, they wouldn't have gotten Kaberle, and they would have combined their picks to jump up both years but certainly not far enough to get Seguin.
As far as true secondary effects, the solidarity up and down the roster has been noticeable since he left. He may or may not be a bad teammate, but they got their shots in when he left in a way that you rarely see. One Bruins dressed up as Kessel for Halloween, another said he'd be a great player if the rink were a circle because he hates going into corners. The team's identity eventually became that every last man on the ice would stand up for each other regardless of whether the player is a scrub or a 30-goal scorer, which is something Kessel would never buy into.
I wouldn't call it luck, considering that many people of HF that year thought the Leafs were going to be a lottery team, even after the Kessel trade. The leafs didn't look good on paper at all and it reflected in their play as well.
My question is though, do you think Chiarelli would have been as liberal with Boston's first round picks had he not had "back-up" picks. Do you think he would have flipped the first for Horton had he not had Toronto's first? Likewise for Kaberle.
If you have a trade that makes your team better you do it. So, yes I think he still does the trade for Horton. As for Kaberle, I think he does it again on the principle of not knowing how much of a fish out of water Kaberle would be in Boston. If he had hindsight for how bad he was, than no, he doesn't do it.
I don't think there's any debate that the answer to your specific question is yes. I'm pretty sure Chiarelli even said as much. There's a ton of luck that goes into getting Seguin and Hamilton; if those picks had ended up at 15 two years in a row, I'm sure the Bruins would be without Horton, they wouldn't have gotten Kaberle, and they would have combined their picks to jump up both years but certainly not far enough to get Seguin.
As far as true secondary effects, the solidarity up and down the roster has been noticeable since he left. He may or may not be a bad teammate, but they got their shots in when he left in a way that you rarely see. One Bruins dressed up as Kessel for Halloween, another said he'd be a great player if the rink were a circle because he hates going into corners. The team's identity eventually became that every last man on the ice would stand up for each other regardless of whether the player is a scrub or a 30-goal scorer, which is something Kessel would never buy into.
N.B. Don't forget Knight.
Didn't know that Kessel was that bad in the lockerroom. Good info to know.
I wouldn't call it luck, considering that many people of HF that year thought the Leafs were going to be a lottery team, even after the Kessel trade. The leafs didn't look good on paper at all and it reflected in their play as well.
My question is though, do you think Chiarelli would have been as liberal with Boston's first round picks had he not had "back-up" picks. Do you think he would have flipped the first for Horton had he not had Toronto's first? Likewise for Kaberle.
No, he would not have, and he has said as much (Sorry I can't find verification for you, but it's late and I don't feel like digging it up), that having Toronto's first-round pick enabled them to use their own first to acquire Horton (and Campbell too). They also had a second-rounder up their sleeve (aquired a couple of years ago for Chuck Kobasew) for 2011, which enabled them to trade for Kaberle. (They used the Minnesota pick for Alex Khokhlachev.)
You're also correct in that it wasn't all luck - Chiarelli has also said that the Bruins front office and scouting staff talked about Toronto's offer for Kessel and the consensus was that they had a good probability of hitting it big. It was something of a gamble, but not a ridiculous one.
No, he would not have, and he has said as much (Sorry I can't find verification for you, but it's late and I don't feel like digging it up), that having Toronto's first-round pick enabled them to use their own first to acquire Horton (and Campbell too). They also had a second-rounder up their sleeve (aquired a couple of years ago for Chuck Kobasew) for 2011, which enabled them to trade for Kaberle. (They used the Minnesota pick for Alex Khokhlachev.)
You're also correct in that it wasn't all luck - Chiarelli has also said that the Bruins front office and scouting staff talked about Toronto's offer for Kessel and the consensus was that they had a good probability of hitting it big. It was something of a gamble, but not a ridiculous one.
When you think about it in this way, it was really quite a trade Chiarelli made. I still can't believe it. Excellent fore-sight by him and his staff imo.
I think it would be insane to think having the extra first round picks didn't help.
I think Chia managed that trade well and with some luck got some players that help the team now or will in the future.
I think the Kaberle trade was a bit of a burn but the Bruins still came away with the cup and i think it lessons the pain. Kaberle also while not a great fit did contribute to the play off run but I definitely think the bruins system wasn't a good fit for him.
My memory is pretty hazy on the subject but didn't Chiarelli ask Burke if he wanted the picks to be lottery protected and Burke said something like "Oh we won't have to worry about that".
I don't think there's any debate that the answer to your specific question is yes. I'm pretty sure Chiarelli even said as much. There's a ton of luck that goes into getting Seguin and Hamilton; if those picks had ended up at 15 two years in a row, I'm sure the Bruins would be without Horton, they wouldn't have gotten Kaberle, and they would have combined their picks to jump up both years but certainly not far enough to get Seguin.
As far as true secondary effects, the solidarity up and down the roster has been noticeable since he left. He may or may not be a bad teammate, but they got their shots in when he left in a way that you rarely see. One Bruins dressed up as Kessel for Halloween, another said he'd be a great player if the rink were a circle because he hates going into corners. The team's identity eventually became that every last man on the ice would stand up for each other regardless of whether the player is a scrub or a 30-goal scorer, which is something Kessel would never buy into.
My memory is pretty hazy on the subject but didn't Chiarelli ask Burke if he wanted the picks to be lottery protected and Burke said something like "Oh we won't have to worry about that".
i never heard about that
if thats true ... then what the **** Burke ... lol
First I've heard of it. Doubt it. Burke's not stupid, and Chiarelli wouldn't handicap himself like that.
haha yea
the trade benefited both teams, Bruins got the better out of it asset-wise though
but Seguin wouldnt have the same success on the Leafs as he is currently having on the B's .... vice-versa with Kessel ... both players fit their respective systems better
By acquiring TO's picks, it allowed the Bruins to gain Horton, Campbell, Kaberle, etc by using their own picks
By Burke trading away the Leafs picks, it enabled him to acquire younger talent such as Gardiner and Colborne ...
great trade from both sides, but i still cringe every time i see Seguin score against the Leafs ... (i was at the game where he scored the Hatty )
I don't think there's any debate that the answer to your specific question is yes. I'm pretty sure Chiarelli even said as much. There's a ton of luck that goes into getting Seguin and Hamilton; if those picks had ended up at 15 two years in a row, I'm sure the Bruins would be without Horton, they wouldn't have gotten Kaberle, and they would have combined their picks to jump up both years but certainly not far enough to get Seguin.
As far as true secondary effects, the solidarity up and down the roster has been noticeable since he left. He may or may not be a bad teammate, but they got their shots in when he left in a way that you rarely see. One Bruins dressed up as Kessel for Halloween, another said he'd be a great player if the rink were a circle because he hates going into corners. The team's identity eventually became that every last man on the ice would stand up for each other regardless of whether the player is a scrub or a 30-goal scorer, which is something Kessel would never buy into.
N.B. Don't forget Knight.
You nailed it FC. Excellent summary of the impacts of the trade.
Kessel is a good, one dimensional player who is the antithesis of what this Bruins team is all about. They most certainly are better off without him.
Jared Knight has all the qualities that this "team" represents. I believe he will be a better "Bruin" than Kessel would have ever been. It's possible that Knight will end up worth the trade by himself.
In that scenario Seguin and Hamilton are the icing on the cake.
As Burke pointed out, when both teams feel like they got a fair deal, you still have that team as a potential trading partner and I feel like the Kaberle deal was a positive one for us as well.
As far as I can tell, Kessel is extremely well-liked by his teammates in Toronto so what happened in Boston is not really a concern for me. I think his work ethic has been outstanding this season.
My memory is pretty hazy on the subject but didn't Chiarelli ask Burke if he wanted the picks to be lottery protected and Burke said something like "Oh we won't have to worry about that".
Nope never happened, this whole ‘lottery protected’ non-sense started right after Leaf fans realized that’s where their team was headed. There was a thread on their board about it and if the search function worked I would dig it up. Chiarelli wouldn’t do such a thing, why would he ask if Burke wanted their picks lottery protected when the only other option for Burke was to sign Kessel to an offer sheet. The Bruins would get the Leafs picks with no stipulations via an offer sheet.
Nope never happened, this whole ‘lottery protected’ non-sense started right after Leaf fans realized that’s where their team was headed. There was a thread on their board about it and if the search function worked I would dig it up. Chiarelli wouldn’t do such a thing, why would he ask if Burke wanted their picks lottery protected when the only other option for Burke was to sign Kessel to an offer sheet. The Bruins would get the Leafs picks with no stipulations via an offer sheet.
Thats probably where I read it...Like I said my memory was hazy on the subject.
I'm just glad Kessel is gone ... not a team player, won't get dirty in the corners and didn't like the Bruins coach because of it. Good riddance. I would have taken a used puck bag for him.
He got benched in the playoffs because that is where he sucks the most. I feel badly for Toronto when they finally make the playoffs because Kessel will not be effective.
Seguin is many times the player he is in heart alone.
I'm just glad Kessel is gone ... not a team player, won't get dirty in the corners and didn't like the Bruins coach because of it. Good riddance. I would have taken a used puck bag for him.
He got benched in the playoffs because that is where he sucks the most. I feel badly for Toronto when they finally make the playoffs because Kessel will not be effective.
Seguin is many times the player he is in heart alone.
kessel has 9 goals 6 assist in 15 playoff games...
I'm just glad Kessel is gone ... not a team player, won't get dirty in the corners and didn't like the Bruins coach because of it. Good riddance. I would have taken a used puck bag for him.
He got benched in the playoffs because that is where he sucks the most. I feel badly for Toronto when they finally make the playoffs because Kessel will not be effective.
Seguin is many times the player he is in heart alone.
I get that Boston got a great return for Kessel and they should be happy with what they have... but these comments seem pretty ignorant. He's 2nd in the league in scoring and was traded when he was 22 - it is possible for young players to grow up.
Having lurked before I know people are just gonna rush to call me a troll but I'm trying to be respectful and have a rational hockey conversation here.
)
