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01-20-2012, 10:01 AM
  #1
nickschultzfan
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Crumbling Blueline

Burns is long gone. Scandella in Houston. This blueline is falling apart and showing that it is sub-par on every level. Something major has to be done. Here's how I think the long-term roster breaks down:

Top-4 Dmen
Schultz - People have been railing into him this season, but he's still been the most consistent Dman in the line-up. He doesn't have a lot of trade value, but his contract does not break the bank (Cullen, Zidlicky, Backstrom, Bouchard are bigger problems). If he is traded, the blueline will crumble even more. At the very least, he's in the top-4 for the foreseeable future.

Scandella - His play did drop off, but the blueline is worse without him. He needs to bring the offense at the NHL level. But he is still very young. He will be with the team next year and moving forward.

Bottom-Pair Dmen
Spurgeon - Is both impressive and limited. He's played great, but then he gets owned by stronger players who drive to the net like last night. Maybe he develops into a 2nd pair Dman, but he needs to bring the offense in 5v5 consistently to get there. He hasn't consistently done that yet. Good puck-mover, but hasn't put up the points he needs to stay in the league.

Falk - Big guy who can skate and puck-move a little. Doesn't shoot even though his shot is not-bad. Like Spurgeon, Falk could develop into 2nd pair Dman if he improves parts of his game (positioning, bringing the physicality, better defensive stick), but he's not there now. Too much inconsistency. Looks like a defensive stalwart one game, then Kurtis Foster minus the shot the next.

Stoner - I like the grit and sandpaper he brings to the line-up, but it's pretty much confirmed at this point that he won't ever be that physical #4 Dman. Too limited in his skating and puck-skills. Has been bad at points, but he's also played with some bad partners (Zanon, Zidlicky). He's looked good when he's played with Spurgeon. Not a bad guy to have as your #6/7 Dman. Cheap and is willing to be tough.

Prosser - Could be a solid defensive NHL pucker-mover, but the jury is still out on him. Has potential, but right now he hasn't beat out guys like Lundin, Zidlicky, and Zanon. Could be real solid in a bottom-pairing with Falk or Stoner.

Dmen Not in Long-term Plans
Lundin - The guy hasn't fit in with the Wild IMO. He was supposed to be a defensively solid Dman who could skate and puck-move. Somebody we've lacked since Johnsson. However, instead we got a guy who is plagued by back-injuries, is soft, and isn't that great in the defensively. Our roster would be better served with a guy like Leopold (for example), who could also bring the offense. With Prosser and Brodin on the way, Lundin is on the outside looking in.

Zidlicky - Bottom-pairing, PP quarter that has been pushed up into the top-4. Currently making $4 million/year. He's on pace for 27 points. Which is funny because 27% of his points came in one game. His defense, aside from one year with Richards, has been bad over his entire Wild career. If he's not bringing the offense, he has no purpose on the roster. I think his NTC is up halfway through this season. I am pretty sure it only lasted the first 1/2 of his contract. This team does need offense from the blueline, but Zidlicky hasn't been the guy we needed.

Zanon - Put a fork in him. He was great while he lasted, but he was always a bottom-pair, PK Dman that was pushed up into the top-4. Now, he brings nothing to the table that the kids couldn't do.

For 2012-2013, we are looking at:

X - Scandella/Schultz
Scandella/Schultz - Y
Spurgeon/Prosser-Falk/Stoner
Prosser/Falk/Stoner

X = Missing #1 Dman
Y = Missing top-4 Dman. Candidates include Brodin, Spurgeon, Falk, and maybe Prosser.

So, any thoughts on how we fix the situation?


Last edited by nickschultzfan: 01-20-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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01-20-2012, 10:21 AM
  #2
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Simplest solution? Tank this year, win lotto/tank that bad/trade up 3 places and take Murray (most NHL ready, guaranteed top 4 guy). That gives us:

Scandella-Brodin
Schultz-Murray
Falk-Spurgeon

It'll be servicable next season, and pretty decent within 3 seasons.

More optimal situation: Sign legit top-4 guy in FA, get some forward help so someone can bury Spurgeon's rebounds, have him as #4:

Schultz-UFA
Scandella-Spurgeon
Falk-Prosser/Brodin

That's a little underpowered, but assuming Brodin and our 2012 1st develop properly, we should have a servicable setup next season, and a legit blue line in 2-3 years.

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01-20-2012, 10:23 AM
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If they can get Suter, problems are solved.

Suter-Brodin
Spurgeon-Scandella
Schultz-Prosser

If they can't get Suter, try and move Heatley for a defenseman I guess? Or overpay one in free agency. Or just keep getting killed every night.

On the PP, use four forwards next year. Cullen and Heatley at the point.

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01-20-2012, 11:11 AM
  #4
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Seriously; this is getting really, really tiresome.

We know our blueline is a mess. We knew that coming into the season. Has it been worse than what we expected? Probably. Has it been better than what we expected? There has been some bright spots.

But we knew coming into the season the defense was going to be a work in progress. That was a given and re-hashing it over and over isn't going to really bring any new points to light since we knew that this was going to be a major transition year for our defense.

What has been alarming is the amount of injuries and the lack of top 6 forwards.

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01-20-2012, 11:31 AM
  #5
Randy BoBandy
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Sorry but your in denial Schultz lover. He is trash and doesn't belong on a NHL team. He cannot make a first pass out of the zone to save his life. Has the guy ever heard of making a move and then passing to the open option instead of chipping it off the glass basically giving the team the puck at the red line again. He can't score, pass, or shut down the guy is terrible.

The only top 4 options we have right now are Spurgeon and Scandella. They are young and have the potential to be great and are already better than any of the others. We need PMD and offensive defenseman very badly right now. But truthfully we need help in all areas. Defense would probably be our highest priority though.

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01-20-2012, 12:24 PM
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I'd be more for going for Reinhart.

We aren't getting Suter, sorry but on how this season his going. He can command any team he wants right now and he ain't signing a 6 year contract with a team that hasn't/will miss the playoffs 4 years running.

That's why we have to make timely trades and build through the draft or overpay for a 2nd tier D-man.

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01-20-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Top-4 Dmen
Schultz - People have been railing into him this season, but he's still been the most consistent Dman in the line-up. He doesn't have a lot of trade value, but his contract does not break the bank (Cullen, Zidlicky, Backstrom, Bouchard are bigger problems). If he is traded, the blueline will crumble even more. At the very least, he's in the top-4 for the foreseeable future.
You're biased. Just sayin'.

The longer he's on the team, the more he looks like a #4-6 defenseman.

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01-20-2012, 01:52 PM
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nickschultzfan
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Don't understand the Schultz hate. Especially when nearly every other guy on the blueline is playing worse than him. And he prevents 1-2 goals a game where the goaltender is completely beat. I mean, just two games ago he wacked out a puck out of mid-air that fluttered over Harding.

My forum name is supposed to be ironic, rather than signalling blind-love for Nick Schultz. Cause nobody says they love defensive Dman. Fans love offensive players.

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01-20-2012, 02:40 PM
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Like Dumb and Dumber, I did appreciate when Schultz knocked Lupul on his backside last night. Occasionally he does something good.

His problem this year is that he has been thrust into a role which fits him as well as #1 center fits Peters, i.e. #1 defenseman. The Wild have usually had someone more capable in that role, like Johnsson or Burns.

The limitations of his game have been amplified because of it.

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01-20-2012, 02:52 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Seriously; this is getting really, really tiresome.

We know our blueline is a mess. We knew that coming into the season. Has it been worse than what we expected? Probably. Has it been better than what we expected? There has been some bright spots.

But we knew coming into the season the defense was going to be a work in progress. That was a given and re-hashing it over and over isn't going to really bring any new points to light since we knew that this was going to be a major transition year for our defense.

What has been alarming is the amount of injuries and the lack of top 6 forwards.
This. You trade the #1 d-man from a weak blue-line and the lone off-season acquisition is a guy who another team let walk as a restricted free agent, the group is going to struggle.

Nick Schultz, whether people agree or disagree, isn't going to all of a sudden drop down to 17 minutes a night. We can't hide anyone because we have no horse. We've got a bunch of depth d-men who have significant weaknesses in their games and because they're all playing more minutes than they should and have nobody to bail them out, they get exposed. Honestly of our 9 d-men that have played a little this year, they should only account for 3-4 of our 7-8 d-men for next year. We need help and lots of it.

Our forwards aren't any better though. They don't support, they don't maintain possession through the neutral zone, they don't get pucks deep, they don't win puck battles. Mike Yeo wants to play a 70/30 possession game and I'd argue we don't get 25% possession. A "success" for this team is getting the puck past our own blue-line.

What's most alarming of all this is that Chuck Fletcher's had 3 years to put his stamp on this team. The Riser players and contracts are almost all gone. So these are his players, and they're a joke. I know Leipold's giving him some time for his prospects to develop, but that doesn't hide the fact that he built this team. Our 2 best d-men(Johnsson/Burns) were let go by Fletcher, and what's he done to replace them? Draft Jonas Brodin and ???? Oh right, Cam Barker.... That's worse than Riser replacing Demo/Rolston with Nolan/Bruno....

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01-20-2012, 03:09 PM
  #11
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Dear Other Wild Posters,

Schultz has been terrible through the first half of this season. However, being terrible in the first 40 games doesn't mean that he has been terrible in the last 2-3. In fact, looking at just the Philly and Toronto games (I didn't see the St. Louis one), Schultz has been arguably our best defenseman for the past week. If he can continue playing like that, he is a legitimate 2-3 guy. Don't let his play from early this season make you automatically claim that he's terrible every night. He looks like he's finally gotten back to his old self, so I (for one) will be giving him the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that whatever his problem was, it's in the past.

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01-20-2012, 03:10 PM
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nickschultzfan
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Originally Posted by saywut View Post
This. You trade the #1 d-man from a weak blue-line and the lone off-season acquisition is a guy who another team let walk as a restricted free agent, the group is going to struggle.

Nick Schultz, whether people agree or disagree, isn't going to all of a sudden drop down to 17 minutes a night. We can't hide anyone because we have no horse. We've got a bunch of depth d-men who have significant weaknesses in their games and because they're all playing more minutes than they should and have nobody to bail them out, they get exposed. Honestly of our 9 d-men that have played a little this year, they should only account for 3-4 of our 7-8 d-men for next year. We need help and lots of it.

Our forwards aren't any better though. They don't support, they don't maintain possession through the neutral zone, they don't get pucks deep, they don't win puck battles. Mike Yeo wants to play a 70/30 possession game and I'd argue we don't get 25% possession. A "success" for this team is getting the puck past our own blue-line.

What's most alarming of all this is that Chuck Fletcher's had 3 years to put his stamp on this team. The Riser players and contracts are almost all gone. So these are his players, and they're a joke. I know Leipold's giving him some time for his prospects to develop, but that doesn't hide the fact that he built this team. Our 2 best d-men(Johnsson/Burns) were let go by Fletcher, and what's he done to replace them? Draft Jonas Brodin and ???? Oh right, Cam Barker.... That's worse than Riser replacing Demo/Rolston with Nolan/Bruno....
I think that is an important point. Johnsson and Burns WERE our 2 best Dmen. Now they are gone and not replaced.

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01-20-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saywut View Post
What's most alarming of all this is that Chuck Fletcher's had 3 years to put his stamp on this team. The Riser players and contracts are almost all gone. So these are his players, and they're a joke. I know Leipold's giving him some time for his prospects to develop, but that doesn't hide the fact that he built this team. Our 2 best d-men(Johnsson/Burns) were let go by Fletcher, and what's he done to replace them? Draft Jonas Brodin and ???? Oh right, Cam Barker.... That's worse than Riser replacing Demo/Rolston with Nolan/Bruno....
Yeah look how well Johnsson is doing with...who does he play for again? Oh that's right, he's OOH and has been for two seasons now.

Seriously people, you're better than this. I know you're just trying to make a point, but when you make arguments like this one, it makes anyone who has any background just automatically assume the opposite of what you're arguing is true.

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01-20-2012, 03:18 PM
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If paired up with a solid puck mover with great positional awareness, he could be a second pairing guy. Still not a high end defenseman that will raise the game of his partner though.

But yes, he has been better the last couple games.

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01-20-2012, 03:22 PM
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It doesn't matter what Johnsson's doing now, it's the lack of a puck mover to replace him.

Our prospects have gotten significantly better under Fletcher's watch, but our NHL team has gotten significantly worse. At some point in time he's got to bear some responsibility for that. He got a free pass in year one and two, and so far everyone's content to say "transition year", even though we don't have any players who are part of the transition playing right now.

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01-20-2012, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
It doesn't matter what Johnsson's doing now, it's the lack of a puck mover to replace him.

Our prospects have gotten significantly better under Fletcher's watch, but our NHL team has gotten significantly worse. At some point in time he's got to bear some responsibility for that. He got a free pass in year one and two, and so far everyone's content to say "transition year", even though we don't have any players who are part of the transition playing right now.
It 10000000% matters what Johnsson's doing right now if you attempt to make the argument that Fletcher "let him go."

The "what has he done to replace them" argument might have some merit, but only in the context of "what could he theoretically done to replace them?" If you ignore the context, you're not making an argument, you're making a fool out of yourself.

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01-20-2012, 03:55 PM
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No.

That's not at all what we're saying.

It's that he didn't REPLACE him.

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01-20-2012, 04:00 PM
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, even though we don't have any players who are part of the transition playing right now.
I would assume Seto, Spurgeron and Scandella are part of that transition.

But yes, the problem is being amplified by the fact the forwards we keep acquiring aren't fitting in.

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01-20-2012, 04:03 PM
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Yeah look how well Johnsson is doing with...who does he play for again? Oh that's right, he's OOH and has been for two seasons now.

Seriously people, you're better than this. I know you're just trying to make a point, but when you make arguments like this one, it makes anyone who has any background just automatically assume the opposite of what you're arguing is true.
Its the talent evaluation that's my concern. Cam Barker, who the hell scouted him when he was (barely, for a reason)playing in Chicago? Mike Lundin, who thought he'd solve our problems when Tampa didn't even want him back as a restricted free agent?

I'm not saying Kim Johnsson would've returned, I'm not saying trading Brent Burns was a terrible decision. I'm aware of the limited options out there, but Lundin and Barker were obviously not the answers, and we knew that before-hand. No, Schultz and Zidlicky should not be struggling as much as they have, but a couple 21 year olds(Scandella/Spurgeon) shouldn't be relied on to carry a defense.

I'm still fine with this season being an evaluation year. My concern is the mentality of this team. Most of these players are going to be back next year, and look how fragile they are after half a season. No confidence. Accepting losing with little push-back. Can't have that. So why are we in this position? Well injuries are an easy(perhaps valid, but Yeo won't go there and neither will I) excuse, but there are also glaring holes on this roster that were failed to be filled when Fletcher was trying to build a "playoff" team. Granted he didn't use those words this off-season, but still didn't really address it and now its showing.

Losing is one thing, I'm sure Columbus isn't the most confident bunch, but I do believe we are the least confident team in the league right now.

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01-20-2012, 04:08 PM
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It 10000000% matters what Johnsson's doing right now if you attempt to make the argument that Fletcher "let him go."

The "what has he done to replace them" argument might have some merit, but only in the context of "what could he theoretically done to replace them?" If you ignore the context, you're not making an argument, you're making a fool out of yourself.
Post-trade Johnsson got a serious concussion and retired. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't trade.

Or, if he was done anyways, Fletcher could have got targetted anybody but Barker. I knew the moment that trade came through that we were screwed. Barker wasn't that good in Chicago. Don't know what Fletcher saw in him.

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01-20-2012, 04:18 PM
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No.

That's not at all what we're saying.

It's that he didn't REPLACE him.
Response

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01-20-2012, 04:19 PM
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my argument to fletchers trades:

1. He came into a big fan base team who wanted to see playoffs, he swung and missed on a few players. hey, i can understand that, but he saw the bad trades took responsibility for them, and made a plan to the future. which he has stuck too ever since.

2. sucks we lossed johnsson. at the time, johnsson was probably the only one movable of 2 (him/zidlicky) yes we really are missing his game now, but hes gone and not even in the nhl.

3. when we were #1 burns was still missed, but we were winning. i was happy to see fletcher made moves and was not afraid too. now that we are loosing so badly, its easy to go back to the trade and say he ****ed up, but in all honesty to me it seems ppl need someone to blame, and who was doing that when we were winning? noone.

point is, fletcher has swung and missed, hes shown hes not afraid to make a big splash, and hes made a full commitment to the future. all in all hes been a good GM and im still happy with everything hes done.

i still miss burns, but hes gone now, and im not gonna go pointing the blame on fletch because we are loosing. we are loosing cause without koivu and hitting a big loosing streak, noone can pull us out of it but mikko, and thats too much to put on 1 guy when their is a whole team.

also, all of fletchers picks have been euro's or chl'rs who cannot be called up, this loosing streak wouldnt be so bad if we actually had some young talent to use a call up on. next year we will have that, and hopefully make injuries a little more bareable. when mikko goes down, there is noone to call on to take over, with granlund, coyle, phillips, and larsson all being on the team or ready for a callup incase this does happen, atleast we have talent to call on.

everyone just needs to be patient! you think boston/chicago made it to cups because they traded alot of assets because of losing steaks to salvage a season? no. they made it by smart trades and getting assets for players, aka kessel. and now have more than enough assets to aquire a player they really need with out breaking the bank, and are the most well built team in the league.


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01-20-2012, 04:22 PM
  #23
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should have asked for marc-eduard vlasic over seto

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01-20-2012, 04:23 PM
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Post-trade Johnsson got a serious concussion and retired. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't trade.

Or, if he was done anyways, Fletcher could have got targetted anybody but Barker. I knew the moment that trade came through that we were screwed. Barker wasn't that good in Chicago. Don't know what Fletcher saw in him.
It was well known that Johnsson was retiring anyway, that's probably the majority of the reason he was moved. The return was a disaster, and there's no arguing with that. However, look at the deal Edmonton was willing to throw at him. Obviously Fletcher isn't the only one who saw something that wasn't there with him.

The Barker trade is a perfect example of that context people need to keep in mind when saying Johnsson wasn't replaced. Fletcher tried to replace him, and missed. We've hashed that out far too many times. But there's only so many players in the league that could theoretically replace what we lost (and in this case were losing no matter what). Ultimately, top pairing defensemen are a very rare breed. If you don't pick yours up at the draft, or in another way as a prospect, you will be paying up the nose for them. Even then, you might end up with a Barker instead of a Staal.

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01-20-2012, 04:28 PM
  #25
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I really, really hate to say it, but we might as well have just kept Barker for this year. Yeah, the guy was a total liability most of his time here, but just before he became injury ridden he was starting to turn it around and started to look competent.

Worth what we were paying him? Hell no. Better than the **** weve got on our blueline now? Possibly.

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