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01-17-2012, 12:39 PM
  #201
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Kaberle to me is being completely wasted. He's currently our most talented offensive D-man and to maximize his output, he needs to play and be trusted.

However, I'm also aware that we're short of defensively competent d-men that could insulate him in an ideal situation. Gorges needs to babysit Subban and there's no other partner that can give him that kind of defensive support. When Markov comes into the picture it could be interesting (not that I'd do a Markov -Kaberle pairing but the whole make up could change). If not, then Gauthier needs to step in and fine tune this acquisition to make it fruitful.

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01-17-2012, 12:55 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
really, when it comes to dmen, salary is/should more reflective of role contribution & how much the team can expect to rely on them to give quality minutes, than it is a direct reflection of point production...

if a dman can't give you 20+min/night of quality ice-time, it's very hard for him to contribute enough to warrant a big contract.

Kaberle can't give even non-playoff teams 20+ minutes a night... bad contract. really is as simple as that.
He gave Boston 21:15 last yaer and they won the cup. If they weren't dressing 4 LH d-men he'd be around 20 with the Habs at least.

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01-17-2012, 12:58 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Yes by playing 8 minutes a game with a salary and cap hit of 4.25.

Seriously think about what you're saying, 4.25 for 3 years of a #6 d that can play 8 to 10 minutes but give you around 40pts. That is not the way you build a team, when your #6 d is making 4.25 please tell that to someone else
Tomas Kaberle is averaging 18:07 of time on the ice this season.

If he's only playing 8 minutes per game in his time with the Habs, and is averaging over 18:00 for the season, I guess you want us to believe that he was playing over 25:00 per game in Carolina. He'd need to be doing so there, for it to work out.

(29 games x playing time in carolina) + (16 games x playing time in Montreal) / 45 games played = average 18:00 per game.

playing time in Carolina must be in the 24-25 minute per game range for that to work.

Of course no one believes that is true... so your stat that he's playing 8 minutes per game is also untrue. You've taken one game and said thats all the ice time he gets in Montreal.


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01-17-2012, 01:05 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Tomas Kaberle is averaging 18:07 of time on the ice this season.

If he's only playing 8 minutes per game in his time with the Habs, and is averaging over 18:00 for the season, I guess you want us to believe that he was playing over 25:00 per game in Carolina. He'd need to be doing so there, for it to work out.

(29 games x playing time in carolina) + (16 games x playing time in Montreal) / 45 games played = average 18:00 per game.

playing time in Carolina must be in the 24-25 minute per game range for that to work.

Of course noone believes that is true... so your stat that he's playing 8 minutes per game is also untrue. You've taken one game and said thats all the ice time he gets in Montreal.
You and your logic... no place for that here, gets in the way of the blind hate.

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01-17-2012, 01:07 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Yes by playing 8 minutes a game with a salary and cap hit of 4.25.

Seriously think about what you're saying, 4.25 for 3 years of a #6 d that can play 8 to 10 minutes but give you around 40pts. That is not the way you build a team, when your #6 d is making 4.25 please tell that to someone else
He played 1 game with 8:33...
the average with the habs is 16:05
with the canes -- > 19:14

also DD, Pacioretty and Cole also gets 3 pts per game!
On pace
DD (82G, 164 assists)
Pacioretty ( 164G, 82 assists)
Cole (0G, 246assists)

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01-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
He played 1 game with 8:33...
the average with the habs is 16:05
with the canes -- > 19:14
And that makes a lot more sense.

His average is probably even higher than 16:05 in games where the Habs only played 6 D.

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01-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He gave Boston 21:15 last yaer and they won the cup. If they weren't dressing 4 LH d-men he'd be around 20 with the Habs at least.
?

NHL.com has him at 16min/game in the playoffs.

where did you get your number from?

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01-17-2012, 03:16 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I find it funny that people are saying Kaberle at 33 is declining and won't be in the NHL in two years.... clearly his age is working against him.

I wonder if these are the same people who wanted us to sign Hamrlik for 2 more years, who is 4 years older.
I'll bet you he'll be in Europe/retired before he ever finishes his contract.

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01-17-2012, 03:21 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Kaberle to me is being completely wasted. He's currently our most talented offensive D-man and to maximize his output, he needs to play and be trusted.

However, I'm also aware that we're short of defensively competent d-men that could insulate him in an ideal situation. Gorges needs to babysit Subban and there's no other partner that can give him that kind of defensive support. When Markov comes into the picture it could be interesting (not that I'd do a Markov -Kaberle pairing but the whole make up could change). If not, then Gauthier needs to step in and fine tune this acquisition to make it fruitful.
this is a VERY good point...

and while I would maintain that it is still a bit of a mistake to invest so much cap hit over 2 seasons in a player so dependant on the right compliment to be effective, if we are going to keep him, Gauthier needs to find the right match to allow Kaberle to be used in a top-4 role effectively.


In a way, it's reminiscent of Komisarek... when healthy and paired with a guy like Markov, Komisarek quite legitimately played at a level worthy of a 4M$+ contract, and could handle big minutes.

but as we all saw, removed from a perfect compliment (which a player as good as Markov is/would be for most NHL dmen... not unlike Lidstrom), he quickly underwhelmed and once the confidence eroded, ended up playing at a bottom pairing level.

confidence is such a huge component to performance.

I'd rather we not have invested in an expensive commodity that needs that much "support" to provide the level of play he's supposed to, but I could definitely see him "bounce back" in more than just ppg, if we can find him the right complement.

Kaberle is clearly skilled enough to play a much bigger role, question is what will it take to get his head and heart into the right place...

maybe a Beauchemin (did they play together in Toronto?), Stuart, Gleason type would work well?

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01-17-2012, 03:46 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
?

NHL.com has him at 16min/game in the playoffs.

where did you get your number from?
My guess is that he's talking about the regular season #'s. Which is much more significantly higher than his p/o's... I could be wrong though...

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01-17-2012, 05:00 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I'll bet you he'll be in Europe/retired before he ever finishes his contract.
With 2 years left on the deal... sure.

Now what are we gonna bet.

The issue is that neither of us will remember an avatar bet in 2 years when he's still in Montreal. Its not like its one round of playoffs.

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01-17-2012, 06:51 PM
  #212
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He hasn't played any minutes tonight. Ridiculous.

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01-17-2012, 08:21 PM
  #213
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If he wasn't so gutless and inept they'd find him some minutes on no-game days, fire everyone, life sucks, I wanna die ~sarcasm~

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01-17-2012, 10:15 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
4.25 million for a 45-50 pt dman... doesn't get you a 20+ minute per game guy.
This is where I'm convinced you don't really know what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that there has only been one guy in the past 5 years who produced 45+ points while earning less than 20 mins/game, and that was Joe Corvo (who the Bruins have had no problem keeping @$2.25 million instead of $4.25 million Kaberle). Go back a bit further, and you get MA Bergeron, lol. If your point was that you don't find them for $4.25 million, well, let me add similar wisdom in "polishing turds doesn't get you diamonds".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If you want 20+ minutes and matching up defensively against top pairings, take a look at what Jay Bouwmeester and Brian Campbell got paid to supposedly do that job. You are talking 7 million plus.

We keep saying this is a bad contract... but its not.

Its fair value for a guy who will play 16-18 minutes on your third pairing with 6 defencemen, and who will score 45-50 pts.
Again, what really is fair value for something that doesn't exist? Beware of salesmen peddling real estate on Mars.

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01-17-2012, 10:22 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
?

NHL.com has him at 16min/game in the playoffs.

where did you get your number from?
CP has his own note book

Anyways game 7 against Vancouver he barely played over 10 minutes, that's what Boston thought about him

Also in the series if you notice his playing time, he played a lot more games 3-4-6. You guessed it, those were the games the Bruins destroyed the Canucks and they rested Chara/Seidenberg cause they were up by 4-5+ goals

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01-17-2012, 11:10 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
CP has his own note book

Anyways game 7 against Vancouver he barely played over 10 minutes, that's what Boston thought about him

Also in the series if you notice his playing time, he played a lot more games 3-4-6. You guessed it, those were the games the Bruins destroyed the Canucks and they rested Chara/Seidenberg cause they were up by 4-5+ goals
To be fair there aren't many teams in the NHL that have Dmen I would take instead of Chara in the Stanley Cup final when the games are tight .

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01-18-2012, 05:29 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
With 2 years left on the deal... sure.

Now what are we gonna bet.

The issue is that neither of us will remember an avatar bet in 2 years when he's still in Montreal. Its not like its one round of playoffs.
I don't know what we could bet, but I'll let you pick. Namechange/avatar bet is fine by me.

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01-18-2012, 06:49 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
And that makes a lot more sense.

His average is probably even higher than 16:05 in games where the Habs only played 6 D.
Can you sell me on why he only played 12 min against St. Louis - a game where the Habs could have used his offensive wizardry? I'm not buying the 7 d-men theory because if you're trying to win and you're losing the - best offensive weapons should be getting lots of TOI.

And to the poster trying to inflate his TOI. Yea.........I checked the TOI for the playoffs and it was only 16 / game. Even the regular season TOI could be deceiving because some of that could be inflated by Toronto.

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01-18-2012, 07:22 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
?

NHL.com has him at 16min/game in the playoffs.

where did you get your number from?
http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/.../tomas-kaberle

It was the regular season number. His minutes were up and down in the playoffs, some games Chara and Seidenberg played like 26-30 minutes so everybody else dropped.

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01-18-2012, 07:37 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
To be fair there aren't many teams in the NHL that have Dmen I would take instead of Chara in the Stanley Cup final when the games are tight .
Wait. Game 7 was tight? For about 3 minutes, maybe.

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01-18-2012, 07:38 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/.../tomas-kaberle

It was the regular season number. His minutes were up and down in the playoffs, some games Chara and Seidenberg played like 26-30 minutes so everybody else dropped.
funny, Seidenberg/Chara getting big minutes didn't preclude Boston's #3-4 dmen (star players Boychuck & Ference) from playing 20min+/game.


sorry, you can try as much as you want, the reality remains that the cup winning coach realized pretty quickly that Kaberle would best serve them in a limited ice time role (~16min/game)...

no surprise that his next 2 coaches very quickly made the same assessment.

Kaberle, the way he competes right now, simply isn't a guy that you can ice for 20min/game regularly... he has the skill for it, but not the compete level. coaches figure that out very quickly, apparently much quicker than some fans.

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01-18-2012, 07:52 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
funny, Seidenberg/Chara getting big minutes didn't preclude Boston's #3-4 dmen (star players Boychuck & Ference) from playing 20min+/game.


sorry, you can try as much as you want, the reality remains that the cup winning coach realized pretty quickly that Kaberle would best serve them in a limited ice time role (~16min/game)...

no surprise that his next 2 coaches very quickly made the same assessment.

Kaberle, the way he competes right now, simply isn't a guy that you can ice for 20min/game regularly... he has the skill for it, but not the compete level. coaches figure that out very quickly, apparently much quicker than some fans.
But hey, he is a 50 pts d, playing #6 minutes for 4.25 million, those aren't easy to find these days in the NHL

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01-18-2012, 07:56 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
But hey, he is a 50 pts d, playing #6 minutes for 4.25 million, those aren't easy to find these days in the NHL
lucky us, I think we may have the only 1....

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01-18-2012, 07:58 AM
  #224
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lucky us, I think we may have the only 1....
Some even think it will be easy to unload him..... Can't wait

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01-18-2012, 10:42 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
But hey, he is a 50 pts d, playing #6 minutes for 4.25 million, those aren't easy to find these days in the NHL
Again though, you don't get 50 pts playing #6 minutes, and you don't get #6 minutes if you're "truly" a 50 pts defenseman. If you're a good enough defenseman, you'll get the minutes needed to put up 50 pts. Kaberle is seemingly not good enough for the minutes, therefore it's unreasonable to consider him a 50 pts defenseman. The bolded combination above just doesn't exist, and hasn't existed for quite some time (certainly not since the lockout, anyway, as explained earlier).

I'm surprised that watching Kaberle hasn't sobered some people up already after getting drunk off his career stats.

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