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The 4mil forward club is a big reason why we're struggling.

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Old
01-10-2012, 11:03 PM
  #1
joshjull
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The 4mil forward club is a big reason why we're struggling.

The club members are Roy (4mil cap hit), Stafford (4mil), Leino (4.5mil) and Boyes (4mil).

-Roy has been a 26+goal 70+pt center since he became the #1 center after the captains left. He is currently on a 16g 49pt pace

-Stafford is coming off a season where he scored 31g 52pts in 62gms. Thats a 41g 69pt pace. This season he is currently on a 14g 45pt pace. Thats one hell of a drop off in the goals department.

-Leino as we all know was our big UFA siging this summer. He's had playoff success and last season put up 19g 34a 53pts. He is currently on a 8g 19a 27pt pace.

-Boyes gets some slack since he missed a good amount of time with injuries. But ven prior to his injuries he wasn't producing. He is currently on a 9g 21a 29pt pace.

I singled these guys out because they're numbers 3-6 on the forward pay scale cap wise. #1 (Vanek) and #2 (Pommer) are more than pulling their weight. But they can't overcome all four of these guys not pulling theirs.

But I also singled out these 4 because as a group they've played in enough games to have made a difference if they were on their games. Stafford has played in 41 of 42gms( 98%), Roy in 40 of 42gms (95%), Leino in 31 of 42gms (74%) and Boyes in 29 of 42gms (69%).

I've argued in the past that injuries have been an issue and they have been. But thats no excuse with these 4.


Boyes will be gone after this year if not before that at the deadline. Many want to trade Roy and I'm not against it. But I do think this year is an anomaly for him and he could bounce back next year. That said a different direction may be best. Leino needs to find his groove here or we will be wondering whats up with him again next year. He has was playing better prior to his injury. He reminds me a bit of Spacek and his struggles in his first year as a Sabre. Now we get to Stafford. I have no idea what to make of his struggles to be honest. He went from a 41 goal pace last season to a 14 goal pace this year. That is an enormous drop off. Is it the pressure of the contract? the pressure of the "A" on his jersey? Or was last season an anomaly for him? Some combo of all three? I do know this, he isn't a 14g scorer.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-10-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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01-10-2012, 11:07 PM
  #2
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Yep.

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01-10-2012, 11:08 PM
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You could throw Ennis in there too (though he's not making so much money). Could rename thread "secondary scorers."

That's the problem in a nutshell. One year we finally have a top line and there's no secondary scoring.

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01-10-2012, 11:11 PM
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joshjull
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Originally Posted by Husko View Post
You could throw Ennis in there too (though he's not making so much money). Could rename thread "secondary scorers."

That's the problem in a nutshell. One year we finally have a top line and there's no secondary scoring.
The difference is Ennis is still a kid learning to play in this league (also applies to Adam). Those 4 are not. I can live with and expect Ennis/Adam to have issues with consistancy.

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01-10-2012, 11:15 PM
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Yes. And Miller has not been even remotely close to "on his game" all year. I'm a staunch supporter, but this **** isn't what we know we can get out of Ryeen De Woulfer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Husko View Post
You could throw Ennis in there too (though he's not making so much money). Could rename thread "secondary scorers."

That's the problem in a nutshell. One year we finally have a top line and there's no secondary scoring.
The sad reality is, we don't have a top line. With Vanek and Pommer, it has been a game of "insert center here Vanek - XXX - Poms."

I know it's absurd to try to pinpoint fault as a percentage in a team sport, but for fun, it's

35% Stafford
28% Leino
20% Roy
11% Boyes
6% Miller

's fault we suck

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01-10-2012, 11:16 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The difference is Ennis is still a kid learning to play in this league (also applies to Adam). Those 4 are not. I can live with and expect Ennis/Adam to have issues with consistancy.
Was just gonna say that. Plus Ennis has also been bit by the injury bug

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01-10-2012, 11:18 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Yes. And Miller has not been even remotely close to "on his game" all year. I'm a staunch supporter, but this **** isn't what we know we can get out of Ryeen De Woulfer.




The sad reality is, we don't have a top line. With Vanek and Pommer, it has been a game of "insert center here Vanek - XXX - Poms."

I know it's absurd to try to pinpoint fault as a percentage in a team sport, but for fun, it's

35% Stafford
28% Leino
20% Roy
11% Boyes
6% Miller

's fault we suck
+Grags

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Old
01-10-2012, 11:25 PM
  #8
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They were counting on Stafford having a 30-40 goal season. Him having 7 goals at the half way point is killing this team.

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01-10-2012, 11:25 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husko View Post
You could throw Ennis in there too (though he's not making so much money). Could rename thread "secondary scorers."

That's the problem in a nutshell. One year we finally have a top line and there's no secondary scoring.
This is why your average HF poster isn't a GM. Your expectations of Ennis cannot be the same as supposed leaders on this team who were expected to carry the offense.

Ennis is a kid, and young players typically have these stretches.

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01-10-2012, 11:30 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Yes. And Miller has not been even remotely close to "on his game" all year. I'm a staunch supporter, but this **** isn't what we know we can get out of Ryeen De Woulfer.




The sad reality is, we don't have a top line. With Vanek and Pommer, it has been a game of "insert center here Vanek - XXX - Poms."

I know it's absurd to try to pinpoint fault as a percentage in a team sport, but for fun, it's

35% Stafford
28% Leino
20% Roy
11% Boyes
6% Miller

's fault we suck
Yes we do.

When you have two linemates with these stat lines.

Pommer -> 42gms 14g 29a 43pts (tied for 10th in NHL)
Vanek --> 42gms 19g 21a 40pts (tied for 17th in NHL)

then you have a #1 line. That neither is a center doesn't change that fact.

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01-10-2012, 11:46 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabresfan129103 View Post
They were counting on Stafford having a 30-40 goal season. Him having 7 goals at the half way point is killing this team.
Which would have been pretty shortsighted, considering he's been lazy and inconsistent his entire NHL career. Not at all surprising that he'd play his best hockey in a contract year - and they should have expected a bit of a reversion this year, though a 14-15 goal pace is lower than probably anyone expected.

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01-10-2012, 11:53 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
This is why your average HF poster isn't a GM. Your expectations of Ennis cannot be the same as supposed leaders on this team who were expected to carry the offense.

Ennis is a kid, and young players typically have these stretches.
I don't disagree with you. No need for the ad hominem attack.

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01-10-2012, 11:56 PM
  #13
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Going into this season, the FO was probably counting on some combo of Ennis/Gerbe-Leino/Roy-Stafford to provide the second line scoring. With one of Ennis/Gerbe and Boyes providing another line of secondary secondary scoring. Fact is none of those players have contributed anything close to what could be considered second line results.

That said, I have a lot more patience for the kids on ELCs than the '4 mil guys'

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Old
01-11-2012, 01:09 AM
  #14
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Roy
Stafford
Leino
Gaustad
Gerbe
Ennis
Kaleta
Boyes
Miller

Are all having sub-par years.
(though honestly, I didn't expect more from Boyes, dude's been a non-factor at ES and has not been the same guy who had 40/30 goals in STL in a long while... completely baffled by that trade still)

Hecht, Myers, Sekera, Ehrhoff, Leopold, have all had injury issues though they've played better than the above group (though Myers nowhere near to where they need him to be).

...

This is a team that relies on depth and rolling 4 lines and 3 pairings to succeed.

You can assign blame if you want to, but outside of Vanek and Pommer and Hecht, and Regehr/Sekera and maybe Leo on D...
It's been a complete collective suckfest.

...

Bottom line, Regier and Co. screwed up as well.
Pimping Leino as center when he himself said that wasn't really the case, and ending up paying 4mil for a (struggling) winger.
The Boyes trade? Why? Seriously, why?

In the end, Ruff's gotta be held accountable as well.
I realize that's a problem because after 900 years Ruff = Sabres to some people, but there comes a time when a change is needed.

...

Honestly, I think it's time to rebuild.
And it's been that way since losing Briere/Drury.

The "Rochester" core is a good group of supporting players, and some even pop up as playoff "X-factors" in the right environment.... but not when they're playing the main role.

Shop Roy, Stafford, Boyes, even my boy Hecht, maybe Leopold, Kaleta, etc....

And then go draft well in the best draft in years, and build a team with identity and skill and size and speed around Myers, Sekera, McNabb, Armia, Kassian, Vanek, Pommer, and try getting some guys who seem to have character in like Foligno.

And for *******'s sake, in the draft.... DRAFT THE BEST AVAILABLE CENTER.

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01-11-2012, 01:29 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Yes we do.

When you have two linemates with these stat lines.

Pommer -> 42gms 14g 29a 43pts (tied for 10th in NHL)
Vanek --> 42gms 19g 21a 40pts (tied for 17th in NHL)

then you have a #1 line. That neither is a center doesn't change that fact.
No. You have two top line wingers, or your two best forwards on one line, or 2/3 of a top line. We are bleak-to-nonexistent at center. We have two line mates with incredible stat lines, neither of which is a center. The lack of centers is pretty notable, and you combine that with the fact that none of our other wingers score at all, and you've accurately pinpointed why we suck. And "suck" we do. Suck Ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
+Grags
Notably omitted because the defense isn't the problem. The lack of offense is our weakness, as well as subpar goaltending for most of the season.

If I take everyone into account, the season's suckage is 10000% Great Grangini's fault.

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01-11-2012, 01:32 AM
  #16
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Although not a forward, I'd add Ehrhoff ($4M cap hit) into that group since his production and role in keying the power play were anticipated to have made more of an impact than what's transpired so far. He hasn't been as huge a disappointment as Leino or Stafford but his sub-par play has contributed to some of the struggles this season IMO.

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01-11-2012, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
No. You have two top line wingers, or your two best forwards on one line, or 2/3 of a top line. We are bleak-to-nonexistent at center. We have two line mates with incredible stat lines, neither of which is a center. The lack of centers is pretty notable, and you combine that with the fact that none of our other wingers score at all, and you've accurately pinpointed why we suck. And "suck" we do. Suck Ass.


Notably omitted because the defense isn't the problem. The lack of offense is our weakness, as well as subpar goaltending for most of the season.

If I take everyone into account, the season's suckage is 10000% Great Grangini's fault.
Would you have considered Bertuzzi - Morrison - Naslund as a number 1 line back in their Vancouver heyday? Morrison certainly wasn't a number 1 center but those 2 wingers more than made up for it, which Vanek and Pominville are able to do. How about Mogilny - LaFontaine - May... you don't need 3 players to form a number 1 line if 2 of them are dominant, its more important to have chemistry.

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01-11-2012, 09:00 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Would you have considered Bertuzzi - Morrison - Naslund as a number 1 line back in their Vancouver heyday? Morrison certainly wasn't a number 1 center but those 2 wingers more than made up for it, which Vanek and Pominville are able to do. How about Mogilny - LaFontaine - May... you don't need 3 players to form a number 1 line if 2 of them are dominant, its more important to have chemistry.
Exactly - its not about having a number one center, it's about having one center who sticks. We have tried five different guys between them. The examples you give are lines that showed continuity - unlike this year, where we have seen different guys try to fill that role between them and fail to adequately do so.

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01-11-2012, 09:13 AM
  #19
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Honestly, is there much right with this team right now, outside of the top line? The goaltending has been subpar, the team defense has been poor, the secondary scoring has been worse.

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01-11-2012, 09:50 AM
  #20
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Great post. Spot on.

I big part of the equation is if just 1-2 of these guys get going it would take pressure off the team as well as help the four aforementioned players produce with assists and chances. But all 4 going cold is killing this team.

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01-11-2012, 10:06 AM
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And because of these dollar amounts I think it's going to be tough for Darcy to trade any of these guys that are not in the last year of their deals.

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01-11-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Yes. And Miller has not been even remotely close to "on his game" all year. I'm a staunch supporter, but this **** isn't what we know we can get out of Ryeen De Woulfer.

The sad reality is, we don't have a top line. With Vanek and Pommer, it has been a game of "insert center here Vanek - XXX - Poms."

I know it's absurd to try to pinpoint fault as a percentage in a team sport, but for fun, it's

35% Stafford
28% Leino
20% Roy
11% Boyes
6% Miller

's fault we suck
More like :
ruff 30%
miller 30%
Roy 20%
injuries 10%
Everyone else 10%

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Old
01-11-2012, 07:01 PM
  #23
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theres is a lot more then just a few players not playing well, miller went cold after the dirty lucic hit.. there mile long injury steak, which lead to them bring up too many unprepread rookies, Vanek and Pomminville aren't connecting with any centres, plus they aren't always playing as the ability you would like for first liners (+/-) ratings. GA is not good. not much secondary scroing and not winning games the should (Columbus, Islanders, interdivison games). maybe coaching isn't doing it any more?

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01-11-2012, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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theres is a lot more then just a few players not playing well, miller went cold after the dirty lucic hit.. there mile long injury steak, which lead to them bring up too many unprepread rookies, Vanek and Pomminville aren't connecting with any centres, plus they aren't always playing as the ability you would like for first liners (+/-) ratings. GA is not good. not much secondary scroing and not winning games the should (Columbus, Islanders, interdivison games). maybe coaching isn't doing it any more?
If English is your second language, I'll give you a break. But if it isn't ... dude spell check that stuff

Most players are having a down year so far. It is what it is.

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Old
01-11-2012, 07:42 PM
  #25
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The OP is correct, but even more crippling is the noobie blue line.

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