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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Is hockey softer than it has ever been?

View Poll Results: Is hockey softer than it has ever been?
No, hockey is tougher now than any other time 9 15.52%
No, just more precautions nowadays 22 37.93%
Yes, the players and media are bigger wusses than ever before 10 17.24%
Yes, the game has changed for the worse 17 29.31%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-13-2012, 07:50 PM
  #76
TheMoreYouKnow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Could not agree more.

I have multiple games of the 1974 Finals on DVD, between two of the more legendary "tough" squads of all time, Big Bad Bruins and the Broad Street Bullies, and it looks like the all-star game (n terms of physical play) compared to the way the game is currently played.
Does it take toughness to be physical when you play in body armor? I think the intensity of the physical stuff has gone up but then improved padding is almost entirely at fault there. The hitter doesn't have to pay the toll anymore that he used to pay.

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01-14-2012, 06:09 AM
  #77
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
In Slovak national anthem there are words "Let us stop them, brothers" and it means army. It will be not changed to "Let us stop them, brothers and sisters", not in a billion years. Why? I dont remember any women army which has won a war. Some things are given and forced equality will not change them.

Forced equality is against women. It's not just me, even some guy with Nobel Prize thinks the same. There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIpQ7YguGE

I guess you are watching women hockey in same amount of time as men hockey. If not, your are not political correct.
You were referring to the Austrian hymn. The "great sons" there doesn't mean army. Neither hockey players. The next line in fact is "Volk begnadet für das Schöne" (="people gifted for Beauty"). That's the fact. Question is: are you interested in facts or are you just interest in ranting against "forced" equality. BTW: How is the adaptation of a hymn "forced equality" and "against women"?

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01-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Hockey today is more physical but less brutal.

Fighting, goon play, stickwork, and cheapshots are way down from the 1980s and early 1990s.

But hitting and physical play is way up.

I watched the last game of the Edmonton-NYI 1984 Finals awhile back and there's just ... no hitting as compared to today's standards. Not even close. And this is in the biggest game of the playoffs.

There's a reason guys 30 years ago could play without helmets. And it's not just the hitting, either. Shot-blocking is on a whole different level, and while it isn't what's traditionally associated with 'tough' or 'soft', to me it speaks to how tough today's players actually are. Regardless of whether as many guys are getting sucker punched in the head by goons.
Agree. If playing dirty and fighting is toughness then the game is softer but looking at the hockey I think the game is way tougher. The guys are big, fast, skilled and the game itself is faster.

/Cheers

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Old
01-14-2012, 10:36 AM
  #79
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7 of my fav 10 players in today's NHL don't think so:

Douglas Murray

Scott Hartnell


Ryan Kesler


Shea Weber


Jarome Iginla


OV


and


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01-14-2012, 10:42 AM
  #80
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i definitely agree with MS, JFF and GBC.

i am surprised how many fans think hockey is less physical than it used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eddie Shore was apparently a notorious diver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
From C. Michael Hiam's "Eddie Shore and that Old-Time Hockey." From the section where he's writing about Shore in the 1927-28 season.

Not a positive aspect of Shore's game, for sure.

But Shore was still legendary for his toughness, in terms of taking a beating and returning to the game from real injuries.
so it has been confirmed.

shore's diving is probably related to the huge amount of abuse he took. like many other star players, shore was regularly targeted by other teams, and things like elbows, crosschecks and high sticks seem to have been fairly common forms of defense.

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Old
01-14-2012, 11:37 AM
  #81
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I don't know if hockey today is softer but...

go watch the 1947 film clip posted on another thread, of a Mtl-Tor game

In every scrum, the players automatically raise and wave their sticks high. A few take a chop with their stick. And they're not wearing helmets.

That is some scary footage.

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Old
01-14-2012, 11:43 AM
  #82
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Yes, the game has change for the worse.

I read a lot of 20's and 30's newspaper and wow, that was an unique sport ! The crowd went to the games to see speed, but also violence.

I hate the direction that hockey takes

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Old
01-14-2012, 12:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Does it take toughness to be physical when you play in body armor? I think the intensity of the physical stuff has gone up but then improved padding is almost entirely at fault there. The hitter doesn't have to pay the toll anymore that he used to pay.
I disagree. They certainly have improved equipment, but that isn't why games are so much mire pbysicality.

It's the size and speed of the players.

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Old
01-14-2012, 12:31 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
I don't know if hockey today is softer but...

go watch the 1947 film clip posted on another thread, of a Mtl-Tor game

In every scrum, the players automatically raise and wave their sticks high. A few take a chop with their stick. And they're not wearing helmets.

That is some scary footage.
And they give to others hockey stick in axing motion during the game, near or on the head....

But they don't seem to drop the glove, instead their high sticking each other using it like a weapon.

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01-14-2012, 01:09 PM
  #85
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Ironically, those scrums in that 1947 film clip would be very 'unmanly' today.

An individual who uses their stick in a fight is certainly labeled soft, unmanly, cheap, lacking integrity etc. by today's standards.

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01-14-2012, 01:11 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Ironically, those scrums in that 1947 film clip would be considered very 'unmanly' today.

An individual who feels the need to use their stick in a fight is without doubt labeled soft, unmanly, cheap, lacking integrity etc. by today's standards.
Exactly I found the hole thing very un-tought, using your stick instead of dropping glove.

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01-14-2012, 01:53 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
I disagree. They certainly have improved equipment, but that isn't why games are so much mire pbysicality.

It's the size and speed of the players.
That's the popular theme among a certain demographic, however, I believe the primary reason is the way the way that icetime is now managed.

Well into the '90s, teams still primarily rolled out three lines and two D pairs...each logging longer shifts and more overall minutes played. Today, coaches toss out four lines and 6 D in rapid fire, for uber-short shifts. You are on the ice for less than a minute and at warp speed. As opposed to the past when players had to pace themselves more. Which is why the game was played at a more cerebral pace and hitting was typically not as frequent and impactful.

Not arguing that players have not advanced; they have. But the meme that they are simply bigger, faster and better does not tell the entire story.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-14-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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01-14-2012, 02:04 PM
  #88
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Context

Again context seems to have left the discussion.

Going back in time to Eddie Shore and moving forward thru the one goalie era, no masks, no helmets to today with full body armour, the game has to be placed in context.

There is a huge distinction between diving to draw a penaly and stalling to gain time, catch one`s breath, allow your team to regroup.

During Eddie Shore`s era, hockey was played with limited rosters, 9-10 skaters so players would take their time getting up after a collision since there was not viable subsitute. Likewise goalies would have equipment problems, buying precious time for skaters on their team to regroup. No rules have ever existed against such strategies.

Today you have mandated TV time outs and other artificial delays. That buy coaches and players the little extra time they need.

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01-14-2012, 02:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again context seems to have left the discussion.... goalies would have equipment problems, buying precious time for skaters on their team to regroup. No rules have ever existed against such strategies. Today you have mandated TV time outs and other artificial delays. That buy coaches and players the little extra time they need.
True, a great deal of the spontaneity & happenstance has been removed, rules created, time stoppages, science & marketing/broadcasting nonsense replacing art. A vast majority of todays goaltenders seemingly incapable of controlling rebounds. Sending shots harmlessly to the corners or prudently deadening the puck by angling their blockers or sticks forward to the ice so it lands in front of them where it can be smothered & held calling for a face-off. Re-grouping. Calming things down. What we have now is Pachenko on Steroids. The puck & players coming to a dead stop from an almost schizophrenic light speed of dizzying contrails & errors.

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01-14-2012, 03:15 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I can certainly maintain Howe never rolled around on the ice. Lindsay the same. Rocket, etc. You can't say these guys weren't competitors. They were. Even Yzerman, Neely, Stevens, Messier, Trottier among others are guys that were intense competitors that didn't need to resort to dives. Why the changes? Because in our society there is a dying breed of the idea that "men are men". I don't have to tell anyone this, men are wimpier than they ever have been in our world and it is crazy to think that this won't spill into sports either.
How are men whimpier? What's the definition of "being a man"? I thought being a man was having a penis. I guess there is another definition that I am unfamiliar with.

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01-14-2012, 04:16 PM
  #91
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I Why the changes? Because in our society there is a dying breed of the idea that "men are men".
Thank God for this. Good riddance.

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01-14-2012, 06:13 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
That's the popular theme among a certain demographic, however, I believe the primary reason is the way the way that icetime is now managed.

Well into the '90s, teams still primarily rolled out three lines and two D pairs...each logging longer shifts and more overall minutes played. Today, coaches toss out four lines and 6 D in rapid fire, for uber-short shifts. You are on the ice for less than a minute and at warp speed. As opposed to the past when players had to pace themselves more. Which is why the game was played at a more cerebral pace and hitting was typically not as frequent and impactful.

Not arguing that players have not advanced; they have. But the meme that they are simply bigger, faster and better does not tell the entire story.
Read my first post, where I go into a bit more detail

Size and speed increase.

Much improved 3rd/4th lines and 5/6 defenseman.

Much improved "bad teams".

Regular season games have far more meaning now with 16 of 30 making the playoffs instead of 16 of 21.

Increased meaning of regular season games, equals increased intensity. More blocked shots, more hitting, etc.

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01-15-2012, 05:44 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again context seems to have left the discussion.

Going back in time to Eddie Shore and moving forward thru the one goalie era, no masks, no helmets to today with full body armour, the game has to be placed in context.

There is a huge distinction between diving to draw a penaly and stalling to gain time, catch one`s breath, allow your team to regroup.

During Eddie Shore`s era, hockey was played with limited rosters, 9-10 skaters so players would take their time getting up after a collision since there was not viable subsitute. Likewise goalies would have equipment problems, buying precious time for skaters on their team to regroup. No rules have ever existed against such strategies.

Today you have mandated TV time outs and other artificial delays. That buy coaches and players the little extra time they need.
But as it relates to the OP's point, I don't believe there is a distinction.
Regardless of reason, diving and feigning injury have always been frowned upon (as evidenced by those Shore articles). At the end of the day, legal or not, they are extracurricular 'acts' used to gain an advantage.

How common was stalling for time? Because even if relatively common, it would counter the OP's assertion that a 'manly code of conduct' existed whereby players would never dream of laying around on the ice.

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01-15-2012, 12:43 PM
  #94
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answer this: do women dive more than men? if not, what does it have to do with degree of manliness and feminization?
Yeah the women dive too. But the point of diving and embellishment is that it creates an atmosphere of fakers. Remember when Pat Burns didn't send the trainer out once to Claude Lemieux when he was hurt on the ice. He was faking and he knew it. Claude knew it. Few of us that watched Claude Lemieux had respect for him. I wouldn't call Kovalev very manly either. Falling to the ice like you've been shot is a carbon copy of "the boy who cried wolf". Despite the sanitized society we live in nowadays it is still unmanly to fake an injury. Maybe you're younger and if so the next generation is already brainwashed into thinking that creating a scene automatically gives you attention, maybe makes you famous. But it doesn't make it right.

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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Thank God for this. Good riddance.
Why is that? Do you like the idea that men in our world are turning into the guys from Jersey Shore? Sorry, no thanks. Unfortunately society can spill into sports as well. I cringe at the days when we can't say anymore "Oh well at least we have our sports."

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01-15-2012, 02:30 PM
  #95
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Why is that? Do you like the idea that men in our world are turning into the guys from Jersey Shore? Sorry, no thanks. Unfortunately society can spill into sports as well. I cringe at the days when we can't say anymore "Oh well at least we have our sports."
For a large portion of society, opposing the "Men acting like men" idea is opposing meatheads like the Jersey Shore guys.

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01-15-2012, 05:28 PM
  #96
Theokritos
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Yeah the women dive too.
That wasn't the question. The question was: do women dive more than men? Do female hockey players fake injuries more often then men? If not, there's no reason to call diving and embellishment "unmanly".

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01-15-2012, 06:35 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Couldn't disagree more.

The game is currently the fastest, hardest, most physical and brutal the game has ever been.

#1. Size and speed of the players. The game is so fast. Decisions have to be made in an instant. There is very little time and space out there.

Skating ability is so drastically improved. You can't hit what you can't catch. Every team had a number of plugs that could barely move, that's no longer the case.

#2. Depth. The 3rd/4th liners and 5/6 defenseman are much better than before. Also the 14th, 18th, 25th teams are all much better than before.

There aren't total mismatches on the ice very often anymore whether its top line vs. 4th line or #2 team vs. 24 team

#3. Every regular season game really matters. This isn't 4 of 6 or 16 of 21 making the playoffs any more.

It's not easy to make the playoffs, and it's damn hard to have home ice advantage.

Teams used to be able to coast during the regulations season and then really crank up the physical play, shot blocking, sacrificing and intensity come playoff time.

You can't do that anymore. Better coaching + greatly increased importance of the regular season means the intensity, sacrificing and pbysicality of regular season games has increased dramatically.
I would agree with most of this and I think that today's hockey is not soft.

There are more collisions and contact today than at any time that I have watched, which is the last 40 years which is all that I can really judge.

From all accounts hockey could be brutally violent at the turn of the Century but no one here ever saw them play so who is to tell if that was tougher.

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01-15-2012, 07:31 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I would agree with most of this and I think that today's hockey is not soft.

There are more collisions and contact today than at any time that I have watched, which is the last 40 years which is all that I can really judge.

From all accounts hockey could be brutally violent at the turn of the Century but no one here ever saw them play so who is to tell if that was tougher.
What a ridiculous statement to make on the History of Hockey Forum. I have been watching for over 50 years and For sure it was a brutally violent game back in the late 50'/early 60's.

Regarding the turn of the century, by all accounts it was even more brutal. There is enough eyewitness accounts out there to verify this. So what if no one here saw it. It is well documented.

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01-15-2012, 07:41 PM
  #99
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That wasn't the question. The question was: do women dive more than men? Do female hockey players fake injuries more often then men? If not, there's no reason to call diving and embellishment "unmanly".
Every civilization has had standards for men to meet. Failure to meet these standards has been criticized as being unmanly.

Why bring women up at all? We're talking about being a man.

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01-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #100
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What a ridiculous statement to make on the History of Hockey Forum. I have been watching for over 50 years and For sure it was a brutally violent game back in the late 50'/early 60's.

Regarding the turn of the century, by all accounts it was even more brutal. There is enough eyewitness accounts out there to verify this. So what if no one here saw it. It is well documented.
How is that ridiculous?

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote or i didn't make it clear enough.

There are many more collisions at a higher speed and overall impact today than ever before and hockey was more brutal in the 1st 20-30 years of the 20th century to be sure but calling either one tougher is strictly an opinion as there is no toughness test.

I can count the number of hits but even then i won't go out and say that today is tougher, it really comes down to an opinion and soem people won't equate hitting and violent collisions as the same as stick swinging ect...

Even if we are going to do direct comparisons of games and violent incidents do we actually have all of the violent incidents documented from the past?

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