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This team is about to explode

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:16 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Its time for a full rebuild, not a patchwork rebuild we have been doing for almost twenty years... its the surest way to rebuild, unless Mike Milbury is running the team...
What exactrly do you mean by "full rebuild"?

Please try and operate within normal and understood contraints and facts.

The HF fantasy where a team sucks for 4 years, gets 4 superstars in the draft and a great supporting cast and comes out a cup winner in year 6 is 95% fantasy. It happens because teams suck, not because they PLAN to do such a thing because a bunch of people lose their jobs in the process(including 2-3 GM's and 2-3 coaches) and a bunch of fans stop going to games.

When I hear full rebuild then that includes moving Price, Subban and Pacioretty because the team will suck when their prime years start and they'll probably want out.

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01-12-2012, 09:18 AM
  #27
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Gainey.

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:20 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What exactrly do you mean by "full rebuild"?

Please try and operate within normal and understood contraints and facts.

The HF fantasy where a team sucks for 4 years, gets 4 superstars in the draft and a great supporting cast and comes out a cup winner in year 6 is 95% fantasy. It happens because teams suck, not because they PLAN to do such a thing because a bunch of people lose their jobs in the process(including 2-3 GM's and 2-3 coaches) and a bunch of fans stop going to games.

When I hear full rebuild then that includes moving Price, Subban and Pacioretty because the team will suck when their prime years start and they'll probably want out.
See what Ottawa has/are in the process of doing.

They didn't move young core players like Karlsson, Foligno and Cowen.

They moved Fisher, Kelly etc.

Bury Gomez. Maybe trade Cammy, Kaberle (if you can, which I doubt), Gill, Moen etc.

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:24 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
See what Ottawa has/are in the process of doing.

They didn't move young core players like Karlsson, Foligno and Cowen.

They moved Fisher, Kelly etc.

Bury Gomez. Maybe trade Cammy, Kaberle (if you can, which I doubt), Gill, Moen etc.
Ottawa has a good coach and has tough players ...

How are they winning?

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01-12-2012, 09:30 AM
  #30
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Spector quotes Larry Brooks as saying that a rival team wants the rangers to put Sean Avery on re-entry waivers....could it be the habs....I think what the habs are really lacking this year is grit and intensity....something which Avery (even though he's a chicken when it comes to fighting) may bring to the habs....for half of half of his salary it might be worth it to try....worse comes to worse it won't help and the habs will tank and get a top 5 pick....

I think it would be an interesting idea

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01-12-2012, 09:47 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
See what Ottawa has/are in the process of doing.

They didn't move young core players like Karlsson, Foligno and Cowen.

They moved Fisher, Kelly etc.

Bury Gomez. Maybe trade Cammy, Kaberle (if you can, which I doubt), Gill, Moen etc.
Ottawa didn't do a full rebuild at all, they sold a few pieces last yaer and did a patchwork job in the summer.

I think we have a much better base than them though...Price Subban Plekanec Cole Pacioretty Gorges DD Eller Emelin plus a strong crop turning pro next year + LeBlanc.

I don't think their success is anything permanent...Spezza is not going to always play like this or stay healthy, Michalek isn't a 45 goal scorer, Foligno and Smith are playing over their heads. I predict they finish 9th or 10th and flop next year.

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01-12-2012, 09:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axman88 View Post
Spector quotes Larry Brooks as saying that a rival team wants the rangers to put Sean Avery on re-entry waivers....could it be the habs....I think what the habs are really lacking this year is grit and intensity....something which Avery (even though he's a chicken when it comes to fighting) may bring to the habs....for half of half of his salary it might be worth it to try....worse comes to worse it won't help and the habs will tank and get a top 5 pick....

I think it would be an interesting idea
Can't see the Habs touching that guy with a 10 foot pole. More trouble than he is worth.

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01-12-2012, 09:50 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axman88 View Post
Spector quotes Larry Brooks as saying that a rival team wants the rangers to put Sean Avery on re-entry waivers....could it be the habs....I think what the habs are really lacking this year is grit and intensity....something which Avery (even though he's a chicken when it comes to fighting) may bring to the habs....for half of half of his salary it might be worth it to try....worse comes to worse it won't help and the habs will tank and get a top 5 pick....

I think it would be an interesting idea
Avery on the habs would be a dream come true #nosarcasm

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:01 AM
  #34
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I will stand by the team as-is.

I don't think we need a huge rebuild although it would be nice to draft an impact player this year.

I think teams will bite on guys like Cammy and Kabs for a playoff run. Gomez is the only contract I think we'll be stuck with.

I wouldn't bury him, just give him a 3rd line shut down role. I think that's his future as an NHLer.

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01-12-2012, 10:03 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What exactrly do you mean by "full rebuild"?

Please try and operate within normal and understood contraints and facts.

The HF fantasy where a team sucks for 4 years, gets 4 superstars in the draft and a great supporting cast and comes out a cup winner in year 6 is 95% fantasy. It happens because teams suck, not because they PLAN to do such a thing because a bunch of people lose their jobs in the process(including 2-3 GM's and 2-3 coaches) and a bunch of fans stop going to games.
Even if this was true... and it's not, it doesn't matter. It works. And because it works, we should consider rebuilding. No, we won't finish last for four years in a row but we could do a serious rebuild. And if we ever want to win a cup again... we should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
When I hear full rebuild then that includes moving Price, Subban and Pacioretty because the team will suck when their prime years start and they'll probably want out.
But they'll want to stay in this situation right?

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:11 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Ottawa didn't do a full rebuild at all, they sold a few pieces last yaer and did a patchwork job in the summer.

I think we have a much better base than them though...Price Subban Plekanec Cole Pacioretty Gorges DD Eller Emelin plus a strong crop turning pro next year + LeBlanc.

I don't think their success is anything permanent...Spezza is not going to always play like this or stay healthy, Michalek isn't a 45 goal scorer, Foligno and Smith are playing over their heads. I predict they finish 9th or 10th and flop next year.
I guess you didn't realize that Spezza is actually producing below his career ppg average? this despite being acknowledged for having improved his play outside of the offensive zone...

you think he's really going to "regress" his defensive play next year after the successful reinforcement he's getting for finally playing hard in all 3 zones? come on, give your head a shake.


only thing that will hurt the sens moving forward is if Anderson falls flat.

otherwise, they have a ton of quality young players who are bound to continue improving (Karlsson, Cowen, Smith, Foligno, Turris, Butler...) even if some of them don't, arguing that their young players aren't this good/will get worse while arguing that we are in better shape b/c of the young group of players we have is silly if not absolutely over the top homerism.


and that's to say nothing of what they have in their pipeline...

zibenijad, silferberg, lehner, peumpel, stone, wiercioch... they've got a deep and talented group of prospects on the way.


Sens' moves last 2 years, trading away vets that weren't part of long-term plan, keeping those they wanted around to nurture young talent (Alfredsson/Neil/Phillips), hiring the right coach from a winning culture (Mclean), allowing themselves to drop into lottery pick territory by not artificially/desperately trying to stay in the playoff hunt...

EXACTLY the approach we need.

i do agree that we have the right pieces in place, now is the time to jettison the guys who need to go b/c they won't be part of long-term solution (Gomez/cammy/kaberle/gill/moen?) and focus on building around the quality we do have, even if it means "giving up" on trying desperately to bolster the roster to "save" the playoff dream for this year.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:13 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Ottawa didn't do a full rebuild at all, they sold a few pieces last yaer and did a patchwork job in the summer.

I think we have a much better base than them though...Price Subban Plekanec Cole Pacioretty Gorges DD Eller Emelin plus a strong crop turning pro next year + LeBlanc.

I don't think their success is anything permanent...Spezza is not going to always play like this or stay healthy, Michalek isn't a 45 goal scorer, Foligno and Smith are playing over their heads. I predict they finish 9th or 10th and flop next year.
That's you as a fan talking again.

Foligno and Smith are good players - just watch them a few times. Spezza is an excellent 1st line centre, better than any we have.

Also Cowen and Karlsson are stud defensemen, plus they have a bunch of good prospects as well.

They've been down but they are doing it the right way and have picked an excellent coach.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:17 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Habs Fan View Post
I will stand by the team as-is.

I don't think we need a huge rebuild although it would be nice to draft an impact player this year.

I think teams will bite on guys like Cammy and Kabs for a playoff run. Gomez is the only contract I think we'll be stuck with.

I wouldn't bury him, just give him a 3rd line shut down role. I think that's his future as an NHLer.
Nobody will keep a guy in the NHL at 7.35 mil cap hit playing 3rd line minutes...at least not long term.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:21 AM
  #39
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Sens have Zibanejad,Turris, Karlsson, Cowen, Pumpel, Stone.

Jason Spezza, a legit first line center, the reason why Michalek is having a career year and the reason why Zibanejad isn't being rushed into the NHL.

The only question mark is their future in goaltending.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:23 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Even if this was true... and it's not, it doesn't matter. It works. And because it works, we should consider rebuilding. No, we won't finish last for four years in a row but we could do a serious rebuild. And if we ever want to win a cup again... we should.

But they'll want to stay in this situation right?
what do you mean "it works"?

Nobody has ever even tried this HF fantasy of "blowing it up". the only thing remotely close are teams struggling financially that were run into the ground like Chicago, Pittsburgh...no big market NHL team has ever intentionally dumped all their veterans and sucked for 3-4 years without throwing a pile of money at UFA's. Even Tallon in Florida sold last year and this past summer spent a pile on UFA(partially to get to the cap floor) and they are no longer "tanking".

Price and Subban will want to stay if a few changes are made and a stronger team emerges next September...not running it into the ground trying to get a high pick in 2013 and 2014. That's where the HF fantasy dies pretty quick in reality.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:23 AM
  #41
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I don't know if it's about to explode but something has to be done soon. The crazies are running the assylum. I just heard an interview with Vèbère saying he sees the games and knows he's better than some of them. You can think it, but you shouldn't say it publically.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I guess you didn't realize that Spezza is actually producing below his career ppg average? this despite being acknowledged for having improved his play outside of the offensive zone...

you think he's really going to "regress" his defensive play next year after the successful reinforcement he's getting for finally playing hard in all 3 zones? come on, give your head a shake.


only thing that will hurt the sens moving forward is if Anderson falls flat.

otherwise, they have a ton of quality young players who are bound to continue improving (Karlsson, Cowen, Smith, Foligno, Turris, Butler...) even if some of them don't, arguing that their young players aren't this good/will get worse while arguing that we are in better shape b/c of the young group of players we have is silly if not absolutely over the top homerism.


and that's to say nothing of what they have in their pipeline...

zibenijad, silferberg, lehner, peumpel, stone, wiercioch... they've got a deep and talented group of prospects on the way.


Sens' moves last 2 years, trading away vets that weren't part of long-term plan, keeping those they wanted around to nurture young talent (Alfredsson/Neil/Phillips), hiring the right coach from a winning culture (Mclean), allowing themselves to drop into lottery pick territory by not artificially/desperately trying to stay in the playoff hunt...

EXACTLY the approach we need.

i do agree that we have the right pieces in place, now is the time to jettison the guys who need to go b/c they won't be part of long-term solution (Gomez/cammy/kaberle/gill/moen?) and focus on building around the quality we do have, even if it means "giving up" on trying desperately to bolster the roster to "save" the playoff dream for this year.
I agree that we need to "tank" this season and make moves for next year, I hope management and ownership is on board.

I don't agree that Ottawa is on a great path, they have very good young players, but I think they will have a couple years of growing pains before it really turns around. they remind me of the Islanders the year Nolan was there, I don't think their current success with that club is sustainable. Spezza usually misses 20 games a year, Michalek is playing waaayyyyy over his head and he usually misses 20 games also, Karlsson is good but he is also playing over his head, same with Foligno.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #43
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Ka-boom!

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:34 AM
  #44
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Did you guys hear Weber's comments? He said he knows he's better than some other guys on the team and he can't wait to prove it.

That's MUCH worse than Cammalleri's comment IMO.


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze: 01-12-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old
01-12-2012, 10:34 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I agree that we need to "tank" this season and make moves for next year, I hope management and ownership is on board.

I don't agree that Ottawa is on a great path, they have very good young players, but I think they will have a couple years of growing pains before it really turns around. they remind me of the Islanders the year Nolan was there, I don't think their current success with that club is sustainable. Spezza usually misses 20 games a year, Michalek is playing waaayyyyy over his head and he usually misses 20 games also, Karlsson is good but he is also playing over his head, same with Foligno.
Or maybe as 1st round picks (especially Karlsson and Foligno), they are being properly developed?

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01-12-2012, 10:38 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
That's you as a fan talking again.

Foligno and Smith are good players - just watch them a few times. Spezza is an excellent 1st line centre, better than any we have.

Also Cowen and Karlsson are stud defensemen, plus they have a bunch of good prospects as well.

They've been down but they are doing it the right way and have picked an excellent coach.
Smith and Foligno are like Moen. Guys producing at twice their usual rate. Smith wasn't even a scorer in junior, best year was 22 goals!

That's like us having White on a 30 gaol pace bext year...not sustainable.

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01-12-2012, 10:39 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Did you guys hear Weber's comments? He said he knows he's better than some other guys our team and he can't wait to prove it.

That's MUCH worse than Cammalleri's comment IMO.
He's definitely better than Gill.

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01-12-2012, 10:40 AM
  #48
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He's definitely better than Gill.
That's obviously not the point. You can't say **** like that in front of the media.

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Old
01-12-2012, 10:40 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axman88 View Post
Spector quotes Larry Brooks as saying that a rival team wants the rangers to put Sean Avery on re-entry waivers....could it be the habs....I think what the habs are really lacking this year is grit and intensity....something which Avery (even though he's a chicken when it comes to fighting) may bring to the habs....for half of half of his salary it might be worth it to try....worse comes to worse it won't help and the habs will tank and get a top 5 pick....

I think it would be an interesting idea
I'd be surprised if that "Rival" is us. And Avery is perfect for this team, being that he already is a "Loser". Would fit right in

The way things have gone this season why not have a bit of fun

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01-12-2012, 10:42 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
what do you mean "it works"?
Detroit, Colorado, NJ, Chicago, Pittsburgh... it works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Nobody has ever even tried this HF fantasy of "blowing it up". the only thing remotely close are teams struggling financially that were run into the ground like Chicago, Pittsburgh...no big market NHL team has ever intentionally dumped all their veterans and sucked for 3-4 years without throwing a pile of money at UFA's.
Detroit did. And it landed them Yzerman.

The other big market teams are Toronto, Montreal, Rangers, Boston and Chicago. Chicago untintentionally sucked. And it still worked out for them. The others spun their wheels trying with quick fix schemes and it got them nowhere.

Boston landed arguably the best blueliner in the league via free agency, found a 34 year old guy who'd never had success in the NHL turn into Dominik Hasek and then ripped off TO in a great trade. If we can do that, I'm all for it. Good luck with that.
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Even Tallon in Florida sold last year and this past summer spent a pile on UFA(partially to get to the cap floor) and they are no longer "tanking".
They have NO CHOICE. Like Columbus another team that tried this route, they are hemmoraging fans because they have poorly managed teams, underfunded scouting and don't have the same kind of fan loyalty we do.

We actually DO HAVE A CHOICE. And we've chosen quick profits over long term success. That's fine if that's your goal, but as fans you have to be smart enough to see what's been going on here.

Again, your whole argument is BS. I don't care if it had never been done before. It works. We should LEARN from the successes from those other clubs and rebuild. By doing this we accelerate the process and get something out of the vets that we trade away.

It's one thing to say that it shouldn't be done because you think it wouldn't work. That's fine... I disagree with you but that's fine. But don't give me this we 'can't do it' crap because we can. We've had mediocre teams for years, ownership is making money hands over fist and the building is packed. This despite the fiasco of having an English interim coach and yearly meltdowns...

If the fans were going to leave they'd have done it long ago. We are number ONE with gate receipts this year despite having one of the crappiest teams in the league record wise. We absolutely CAN do this. I just think management is more intersted in making short term profits instead of winning cups. There's no other explanation for the moves that we've been making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Price and Subban will want to stay if a few changes are made and a stronger team emerges next September...not running it into the ground trying to get a high pick in 2013 and 2014. That's where the HF fantasy dies pretty quick in reality.
Yeah right. They want to stay on the same team that their teammate Mike Cammaleri just described as being a sack of losers. Your arguments make a lot of sense...

You have zero basis for saying that those guys would want out if we rebuilt. And Subban's an RFA for the next few years and would have nothing to say about it anyway...

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