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Black 'dumbfounded' by opinion that franchise isn't better off now than last Feb

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Old
01-12-2012, 06:37 PM
  #101
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How is it not better off?

With Golisano and Quinn, Darcy and Lindy would still be here anyway. We would have Chris Butler and Paul Byron instead of Robyn Regehr. We would have some low-tier FA defensemen instead of Christian Ehrhoff.

I don't see how anyone can argue the franchise is not better off.

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01-12-2012, 07:48 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
If he starts producing, then is it a shrewd hockey move?

Plus, if you want to complain about that move, complain about Regier and Ruff. Black and Pegula aren't responsible for who's signed or what they're signed to do.
I consider all 4 of those guys as part of the same team. They all influence each other and either work with or for each other. I refer to Mr. Pegula, Black, Ruff, and Regier as management (mgmt). Their respective roles are too intertwined to dismiss all accountability from each other.

With regards to the Leino deal: YES hindsight is great, YES it would be considered a shrewd move if he could actually play good (at any position at this point), YES he was probably the 2nd best UFA forward last summer.

But...

The UFA forwards scuked last summer. There was Richard's and then way, way, way down the ladder you had Leino. 2nd best sounds pretty impressive, but you're only fooling yourself, not me. I got behind the deal anyways, because I mean, mgmt knows what they're doing, right? They researched this guy and they KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt this was their man, right? They knew his style of play would fit right in, and he would replace and exceed the position left by Connoly, right? Wrong. They were wrong, almost immediately wrong, and proven more wrong as time goes on. So naturally, I lost confidence in them. Am I supposed to type stuff like, "You'll see...those guys didn't overpay, they got the perfect player...you just wait and see..."? I mean come on everybody, the term "bust" is SUPPOSED to be used to describe these exact scenarios. Even if he turns around and scores 50 points next season, was it a good deal? Obviously, things can't get any worse for Leino as a Sabre, so I expect things to get better, but hoping for more than a 40 point winger at this point, is really naive.

But if he was on a 50-60 point pace as a decent 2-way center, the Sabre mgmt would look absolutely brilliant right now. Just brilliant. But he sucks, so they don't. They look like they either don't know what the hell they are doing, or they really just wanted to send a message to the hockey world. I like to think it's the later, because the former makes me nervous.

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01-12-2012, 09:37 PM
  #103
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The franchise is better off with Pegula at the helm, the team, not so much...Regier is probably going to get sacked soon, but he needs to bring in someone after who he can let make EVERY decision and just sit back...I just get the feeling he was the one who got nervous after Richards didn't sign and said GO GET LEINO QUICK!!!

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01-12-2012, 11:36 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
I consider all 4 of those guys as part of the same team. They all influence each other and either work with or for each other. I refer to Mr. Pegula, Black, Ruff, and Regier as management (mgmt). Their respective roles are too intertwined to dismiss all accountability from each other.

With regards to the Leino deal: YES hindsight is great, YES it would be considered a shrewd move if he could actually play good (at any position at this point), YES he was probably the 2nd best UFA forward last summer.

But...

The UFA forwards scuked last summer. There was Richard's and then way, way, way down the ladder you had Leino. 2nd best sounds pretty impressive, but you're only fooling yourself, not me.
Huh? You deal with what is available, Leino was the 2nd best available. They signed the best talent available to them after the #1 guy expressed no apparent interest in them. Simple as that. Discount it all you want by saying that there was a big gap between number 1 and number 2 but it doesn't change the fact that they still got the best guy available to them.

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I got behind the deal anyways, because I mean, mgmt knows what they're doing, right? They researched this guy and they KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt this was their man, right? They knew his style of play would fit right in, and he would replace and exceed the position left by Connoly, right? Wrong. They were wrong, almost immediately wrong, and proven more wrong as time goes on. So naturally, I lost confidence in them. Am I supposed to type stuff like, "You'll see...those guys didn't overpay, they got the perfect player...you just wait and see..."? I mean come on everybody, the term "bust" is SUPPOSED to be used to describe these exact scenarios. Even if he turns around and scores 50 points next season, was it a good deal? Obviously, things can't get any worse for Leino as a Sabre, so I expect things to get better, but hoping for more than a 40 point winger at this point, is really naive.

But if he was on a 50-60 point pace as a decent 2-way center, the Sabre mgmt would look absolutely brilliant right now. Just brilliant. But he sucks, so they don't. They look like they either don't know what the hell they are doing, or they really just wanted to send a message to the hockey world. I like to think it's the later, because the former makes me nervous.
No team ever KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt how a player is going to perform on a new team, in a new city, with new teammates, with the new pressure of a big contract when signing free agents. I hate to break it to you, but Buffalo is not the first team to ever be wrong about a free agent.

With that said, it's been 30 games and whats' to say he's not a 50-60 point 2-way center next season? It's almost as though after Leino disappointed in the first 10 games that people completely shut him out. It's a shame because he's actually been playing really good hockey lately.

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01-13-2012, 01:46 AM
  #105
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Huh? You deal with what is available, Leino was the 2nd best available. They signed the best talent available to them after the #1 guy expressed no apparent interest in them. Simple as that. Discount it all you want by saying that there was a big gap between number 1 and number 2 but it doesn't change the fact that they still got the best guy available to them.



No team ever KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt how a player is going to perform on a new team, in a new city, with new teammates, with the new pressure of a big contract when signing free agents. I hate to break it to you, but Buffalo is not the first team to ever be wrong about a free agent.

With that said, it's been 30 games and whats' to say he's not a 50-60 point 2-way center next season? It's almost as though after Leino disappointed in the first 10 games that people completely shut him out. It's a shame because he's actually been playing really good hockey lately.
Sometimes "best available" isn't the smartest move. Sometimes less is more. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, the Ehrhoff contract could have only been topped by signing Bieska, it was and still is a brilliant deal. The Leino contract was criticized right away by many fans and analysts. They were right.

Sir...you have to know, at the very least, the position the player will play. Before whipping out the checkbook for a 6 year deal. If somebody wants to pay me 27 million dollars, I'll tell them that I do in fact play goalie, defense, and I will even clean the locker rooms after home games and drive the Zamboni during intermission. There are some things that you count on mgmt to KNOW, without any doubts. The Boyes move hasn't panned out either, so I may as well pie that on to.

I want to support Leino. In fact, you would be surprised to know that I posted many times over the summer of how much he will likely struggle and become the whipping boy. And now I'm all but handing out stones to throw. In my mind I completely understand what he's going through, and I feel a little bit bad about it. But dude...27 million...do your job. It's as simple as that. A few decent games isn't about to win over my good graces, not for that price tag. The real shame is that his presence alone is hogging up all-star level cap space. So if he's not even playing up to a humble 40 point potential, he's weakening the team from many points of view.

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01-13-2012, 07:43 AM
  #106
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How is it not better off?

With Golisano and Quinn, Darcy and Lindy would still be here anyway. We would have Chris Butler and Paul Byron instead of Robyn Regehr. We would have some low-tier FA defensemen instead of Christian Ehrhoff.

I don't see how anyone can argue the franchise is not better off.
OK, so Darcy makes what appears to be a good move at the deadline, the Sabres narrowly miss the playoffs, Darcy and Lindy are retained ("INJURIES!"), Terry spearheads another exciting day on July 1, bringing in two top free agents, Terry puts millions more into facilities and a year from now the Sabres are still out of the playoffs. Is the franchise still better off than it was before he bought it?

When do results have to catch up?

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01-13-2012, 08:26 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
OK, so Darcy makes what appears to be a good move at the deadline, the Sabres narrowly miss the playoffs, Darcy and Lindy are retained ("INJURIES!"), Terry spearheads another exciting day on July 1, bringing in two top free agents, Terry puts millions more into facilities and a year from now the Sabres are still out of the playoffs. Is the franchise still better off than it was before he bought it?

When do results have to catch up?
Hope has to be instilled next season for me, be that through a rebuild, meaningful trades, or meaningful changes to the front office. If everything's status quo at the start of next season, then I'll start to worry.

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01-13-2012, 08:54 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
OK, so Darcy makes what appears to be a good move at the deadline, the Sabres narrowly miss the playoffs, Darcy and Lindy are retained ("INJURIES!"), Terry spearheads another exciting day on July 1, bringing in two top free agents, Terry puts millions more into facilities and a year from now the Sabres are still out of the playoffs. Is the franchise still better off than it was before he bought it?

When do results have to catch up?
I'm not really into entertaining hypotheticals.

Right now, the franchise is better off.

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01-13-2012, 08:57 AM
  #109
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Hope has to be instilled next season for me, be that through a rebuild, meaningful trades, or meaningful changes to the front office. If everything's status quo at the start of next season, then I'll start to worry.
I'm expecting Regier and Ruff to get this season plus two more from Pegula and Black.

And given Regier's MO and the current cap situation, I'm not expecting much beyond the same commitment to the Rochester Core.

What will be interesting to watch is that Gaustad is the first member of the RC that his UFA this summer. Is he retained?

Roy hits UFA in 2013. What happens with him?

Then the Summer of 2014 is the big one with Miller, Vanek, and Pominville slated to hit UFA.

The 3 year plan could be Regier, Ruff, and the RC get until the end of the 2013-14 season. And if they haven't delivered by then, things go boom at that point.

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01-13-2012, 09:48 AM
  #110
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I'm expecting Regier and Ruff to get this season plus two more from Pegula and Black.

And given Regier's MO and the current cap situation, I'm not expecting much beyond the same commitment to the Rochester Core.

What will be interesting to watch is that Gaustad is the first member of the RC that his UFA this summer. Is he retained?

Roy hits UFA in 2013. What happens with him?

Then the Summer of 2014 is the big one with Miller, Vanek, and Pominville slated to hit UFA.

The 3 year plan could be Regier, Ruff, and the RC get until the end of the 2013-14 season. And if they haven't delivered by then, things go boom at that point.
That's my guess. It's unfortunate as a fan because I have zero faith in most of these people involved, but from Pegula's standpoint it makes sense as a plan.

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01-13-2012, 09:56 AM
  #111
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That's my guess. It's unfortunate as a fan because I have zero faith in most of these people involved, but from Pegula's standpoint it makes sense as a plan.
Man oh man, that's quite a long time to watch a team continue to suck. The years, tears, and beers really do start to add up...

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01-13-2012, 10:35 AM
  #112
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OK, so Darcy makes what appears to be a good move at the deadline, the Sabres narrowly miss the playoffs, Darcy and Lindy are retained ("INJURIES!"), Terry spearheads another exciting day on July 1, bringing in two top free agents, Terry puts millions more into facilities and a year from now the Sabres are still out of the playoffs. Is the franchise still better off than it was before he bought it?

When do results have to catch up?
I don't think you understand at all. AT THE TIME, these were great moves. Terry can see into the future how his deals are going to work. And also Terry has nothing to do with how the team performs on the ice. He is giving our team a way better chance to win than it has had in awhile. The team just is under performing.

Your comments on this thread make me believe that you don't know what you're talking about.

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01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
  #113
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Sometimes "best available" isn't the smartest move. Sometimes less is more. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, the Ehrhoff contract could have only been topped by signing Bieska, it was and still is a brilliant deal. The Leino contract was criticized right away by many fans and analysts. They were right.
So you're essentially saying that this team would be better off without Leino? People did not criticize the Leino signing, they criticized the Leino contract. The on-ice product is better off WITH Leino.

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Sir...you have to know, at the very least, the position the player will play. Before whipping out the checkbook for a 6 year deal. If somebody wants to pay me 27 million dollars, I'll tell them that I do in fact play goalie, defense, and I will even clean the locker rooms after home games and drive the Zamboni during intermission. There are some things that you count on mgmt to KNOW, without any doubts. The Boyes move hasn't panned out either, so I may as well pie that on to.

I want to support Leino. In fact, you would be surprised to know that I posted many times over the summer of how much he will likely struggle and become the whipping boy. And now I'm all but handing out stones to throw. In my mind I completely understand what he's going through, and I feel a little bit bad about it. But dude...27 million...do your job. It's as simple as that. A few decent games isn't about to win over my good graces, not for that price tag. The real shame is that his presence alone is hogging up all-star level cap space. So if he's not even playing up to a humble 40 point potential, he's weakening the team from many points of view.
And we continue on, people have an incredibly twisted view of what the owner is actually responsible for. These moves are on Regier, if you want to consider them "failed" moves. Leino has played 31 games with the team, lets give it a little more time before considering him a bust. He's not old yet, only 28 with just over 2 seasons worth of games under his belt.

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01-13-2012, 11:31 AM
  #114
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He's a sales/marketing guy. He's right. The "franchise" in terms of health, investment in, etc is better off.

The "hockey team" is a different story. It's the same old same old. It's a coach/GM team that think dressing 5 offensive defensemen is a good idea, and wondering why their all world goalie is getting scorched all the time. It's signing guys to play C because they say "hey, sure I can play C, where do I sign?". It's resigning a guy to a $4mil per season deal who had a hot stretch and hit 30 goals after being a healthy scratch at the end of the prior season.

Franchise is in great shape, aside from the two chuckleheads who've been running the hockey team for 14 years and seemingly have no clue how to build a roster.

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01-13-2012, 11:59 AM
  #115
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I don't think you understand at all. AT THE TIME, these were great moves. Terry can see into the future how his deals are going to work. And also Terry has nothing to do with how the team performs on the ice. He is giving our team a way better chance to win than it has had in awhile. The team just is under performing.

Your comments on this thread make me believe that you don't know what you're talking about.
Great moves aren't great moves until they're proven to be great. Interesting that you call these Terry's moves. Who's the GM?

The personal attack makes your argument look weak.

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01-13-2012, 12:33 PM
  #116
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Great moves aren't great moves until they're proven to be great. Interesting that you call these Terry's moves. Who's the GM?

The personal attack makes your argument look weak.
your the one attacking the owners

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01-13-2012, 03:04 PM
  #117
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Sometimes "best available" isn't the smartest move. Sometimes less is more. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, the Ehrhoff contract could have only been topped by signing Bieska, it was and still is a brilliant deal. The Leino contract was criticized right away by many fans and analysts. They were right.

Sir...you have to know, at the very least, the position the player will play. Before whipping out the checkbook for a 6 year deal. If somebody wants to pay me 27 million dollars, I'll tell them that I do in fact play goalie, defense, and I will even clean the locker rooms after home games and drive the Zamboni during intermission. There are some things that you count on mgmt to KNOW, without any doubts. The Boyes move hasn't panned out either, so I may as well pie that on to.

I want to support Leino. In fact, you would be surprised to know that I posted many times over the summer of how much he will likely struggle and become the whipping boy. And now I'm all but handing out stones to throw. In my mind I completely understand what he's going through, and I feel a little bit bad about it. But dude...27 million...do your job. It's as simple as that. A few decent games isn't about to win over my good graces, not for that price tag. The real shame is that his presence alone is hogging up all-star level cap space. So if he's not even playing up to a humble 40 point potential, he's weakening the team from many points of view.
So your (and others) prognotications were right, (and conversely others were wrong). We all had a 50/50 chance of guessing how well he'd do out of the gate this year - the available bets were either "good" or "bad". Everyone is always smarter in hindsight.

You seem hung up on 2 points: 1) 27 million 2) his presence hogging up all-star level cap space.

1) 27 million. Well, they haven't paid him anywhere close to that, don't have to pay him all that money, and eventually may not pay him all that money. Only time will tell. Moreover, a perhaps better way to view the contract is how much did they "overpay" to acquire Leino. For sake of argument, let's assume it's 0.5M this year. Maybe it's less, maybe it's more. IMO, it's certainly NOT more than $1M. Would that (smaller) amount of money matter right now in terms of what Darcy would / would not be doing? I strongly doubt it.

2) His presence hogging up all-star cap space. That argument presupposes either (A) there is a current plan to acquire an all-star caliber addition to BUF which is specifically thwarted by Leino's singular contract. That means there must be an all-star player one of the 29 other GMs is willing to trade to BUF, yet won't accept assets back from Darcy to make the deal work financially. Or, (B) there's a pending UFA who wants to sign with BUF (this summer) above all other 29 teams, yet BUF can't sign him because of cap issues. To the former (the "now" or in-season deal), I don't see that as a problem. If Darcy needs to move out salary for picks (even to a 3rd or 4th team, not the one with the All-star caliber player), then I'm sure he can do it. I think the greater issue is Darcy wanting to part with current players. To the off-season problem - again, I don't see that as an issue. TPegs has already shown he's willing to ShaMo someone if needed to get under the cap.

I haven't given up on Leino, yet. He may or may not work out, whether at wing or at center. Regardless, I don't see where you can single him out for failing to earn his Sabre contract - he has a lot of company on that list, this season.

As to Regier, Ruff and the FO, I'd much rather have them sign FA talent they believe could help the team than be unable / unwilling to sign FA talent they know could help the team. The latter was the modus operandi under BTG / LQ.

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01-13-2012, 04:08 PM
  #118
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Man oh man, that's quite a long time to watch a team continue to suck. The years, tears, and beers really do start to add up...
Yet, if Pegula is in it for the long haul, it will be a small portion of his total ownership of the team.

Pegula IS in it for the long haul and he has said from his introductory press conference that he is patient.

He's not going to make knee jerk decisions because of a bad stretch of 20 games or so.

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01-13-2012, 04:59 PM
  #119
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So your (and others) prognotications were right, (and conversely others were wrong). We all had a 50/50 chance of guessing how well he'd do out of the gate this year - the available bets were either "good" or "bad". Everyone is always smarter in hindsight.

You seem hung up on 2 points: 1) 27 million 2) his presence hogging up all-star level cap space.

1) 27 million. Well, they haven't paid him anywhere close to that, don't have to pay him all that money, and eventually may not pay him all that money. Only time will tell. Moreover, a perhaps better way to view the contract is how much did they "overpay" to acquire Leino. For sake of argument, let's assume it's 0.5M this year. Maybe it's less, maybe it's more. IMO, it's certainly NOT more than $1M. Would that (smaller) amount of money matter right now in terms of what Darcy would / would not be doing? I strongly doubt it.

2) His presence hogging up all-star cap space. That argument presupposes either (A) there is a current plan to acquire an all-star caliber addition to BUF which is specifically thwarted by Leino's singular contract. That means there must be an all-star player one of the 29 other GMs is willing to trade to BUF, yet won't accept assets back from Darcy to make the deal work financially. Or, (B) there's a pending UFA who wants to sign with BUF (this summer) above all other 29 teams, yet BUF can't sign him because of cap issues. To the former (the "now" or in-season deal), I don't see that as a problem. If Darcy needs to move out salary for picks (even to a 3rd or 4th team, not the one with the All-star caliber player), then I'm sure he can do it. I think the greater issue is Darcy wanting to part with current players. To the off-season problem - again, I don't see that as an issue. TPegs has already shown he's willing to ShaMo someone if needed to get under the cap.

I haven't given up on Leino, yet. He may or may not work out, whether at wing or at center. Regardless, I don't see where you can single him out for failing to earn his Sabre contract - he has a lot of company on that list, this season.

As to Regier, Ruff and the FO, I'd much rather have them sign FA talent they believe could help the team than be unable / unwilling to sign FA talent they know could help the team. The latter was the modus operandi under BTG / LQ.
Good post, but I'm really just hung up on the fact that he's not a 50-60 point two-way center. And he's never going to be that, so it's a bust.

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01-13-2012, 05:09 PM
  #120
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So you're essentially saying that this team would be better off without Leino? People did not criticize the Leino signing, they criticized the Leino contract. The on-ice product is better off WITH Leino.
The fact that your comment is even debatable, should be alarming to you. It's debatable because the team could be better off with a rookie or even Connolly in his place. The fact that I can even seriously suggest Connolly, is just...I mean. Leino's play has been that bad. Words like "passenger", "lost", and "weak" have been used to describe his play all season. Vanek and Pomminville couldn't even make him look good and they had Adam looking like the ROTY for a quarter of the season.

You're either a very loyal fanatic or you're on the Sabres payroll somehow.

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01-13-2012, 05:23 PM
  #121
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Right now, the franchise is better off.
In your opinion.

We still have Ruff and Regier - and would have under Golisano/Quinn too, so that's a wash.

We traded for Regehr - that's a plus to Pegula.

We signed Leino. Leino has been mostly crap at the position he was signed for, and eats up a good chunk of cap space until 2017. I think we can agree that that signing never happens under Golisano/Quinn. Minus to Pegula.

Ehrhoff has done relatively well, relative to his $4 mil cap hit, though he's signed until 2020. Probably a plus to Pegula, some would probably argue a wash due to the contract.

And most importantly, the on-ice product is no better - in fact, our record is almost identical to what it was last year. Factor in the sky-high expectations that Pegula has set from day one, and this team, even with the same record, appears worse than last years.

So the net result is, at this point, something close to a wash. We're sitting out of the playoffs again, the same core is still here, there have been no changes behind the bench or in the front office (and we're told that's not even a consideration), and we're right up against the cap. Having Pegula's substantial financial resources at the team's disposal is great - but until or unless those resources translate into results on the ice, then it's all for naught.

This isn't to say that I think the franchise is worse off now, or was better off under Golisano/Quinn. I think eventually, hopefully before the start of next season, we'll see some evidence that Pegula is willing to make the tough decisions - to cut ties with some of the core, and make a thorough evaluation of the coaching staff and management, now that he's had first hand experience watching how they operate with no handcuffs. Until then, I think a disinterested observer would say there's not enough evidence to say whether we're better off right now or not.

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01-13-2012, 05:56 PM
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In your opinion.

We still have Ruff and Regier - and would have under Golisano/Quinn too, so that's a wash.

We traded for Regehr - that's a plus to Pegula.

We signed Leino. Leino has been mostly crap at the position he was signed for, and eats up a good chunk of cap space until 2017. I think we can agree that that signing never happens under Golisano/Quinn. Minus to Pegula.

Ehrhoff has done relatively well, relative to his $4 mil cap hit, though he's signed until 2020. Probably a plus to Pegula, some would probably argue a wash due to the contract.

And most importantly, the on-ice product is no better - in fact, our record is almost identical to what it was last year. Factor in the sky-high expectations that Pegula has set from day one, and this team, even with the same record, appears worse than last years.

So the net result is, at this point, something close to a wash. We're sitting out of the playoffs again, the same core is still here, there have been no changes behind the bench or in the front office (and we're told that's not even a consideration), and we're right up against the cap. Having Pegula's substantial financial resources at the team's disposal is great - but until or unless those resources translate into results on the ice, then it's all for naught.

This isn't to say that I think the franchise is worse off now, or was better off under Golisano/Quinn. I think eventually, hopefully before the start of next season, we'll see some evidence that Pegula is willing to make the tough decisions - to cut ties with some of the core, and make a thorough evaluation of the coaching staff and management, now that he's had first hand experience watching how they operate with no handcuffs. Until then, I think a disinterested observer would say there's not enough evidence to say whether we're better off right now or not.
Franchise =/= team.

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01-13-2012, 06:05 PM
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Franchise =/= team.
True.

And completely irrelevant.

Unless or until Pegula's cash and all that it buys - fancy new locker rooms, big signing bonuses, etc - has a positive impact on the ice, then it's all for naught. And let's not forget that throwing tons of money around, even with the best of intentions, can cause it's own set of problems.

We just don't have enough to go on yet.

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01-13-2012, 06:28 PM
  #124
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True.

And completely irrelevant.

Unless or until Pegula's cash and all that it buys - fancy new locker rooms, big signing bonuses, etc - has a positive impact on the ice, then it's all for naught. And let's not forget that throwing tons of money around, even with the best of intentions, can cause it's own set of problems.

We just don't have enough to go on yet.
Actually, it's very relevant.

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01-13-2012, 06:29 PM
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True.

And completely irrelevant.

Unless or until Pegula's cash and all that it buys - fancy new locker rooms, big signing bonuses, etc - has a positive impact on the ice, then it's all for naught. And let's not forget that throwing tons of money around, even with the best of intentions, can cause it's own set of problems.

We just don't have enough to go on yet.
You're still focusing on the team itself. The franchise has more stability now, has done more with public relations and community service, has made new partners to further the business (First Niagara), has done a hell of a lot in mending wounds with alumni and making tradition important, has placed an importance on having Rochester back within the organization, etc.

You personally might think none of this matters simply because the Sabres have massively underperformed for 40 games, but to try and say the franchise isn't in a better spot now than they were 1-2 years ago is ludicrous.

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