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Have we OFFICIALLY started tanking?

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Old
01-12-2012, 11:37 PM
  #26
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Fine, so they're lying. Who cares anyway.
I care. So should you. And you are the one who raised the question with me.

Cammy mouthes off so the GM makes a rash decision like this and pulls the trigger on a lateral move trade the next day? Cammy (at least when he's on his game) is our best forward. (I've consistently said this - and nobody has really challenged me on it when I've said it - since he's been here so please don't start with the he's not as good as this player or that player stuff) You don't make a rash decision like this because he made you look bad in the press. You take your time with it and you get the best deal you can.

We dealt for a struggling problem child from another team. Up until yesterday, Cammy didn't have a bad reputation but suddenly he's a cancer we NEED to get rid of right away? Go look at my posts from earlier this afternoon. I said calmer heads should prevail and we shouldn't do anything rash.

Management did the opposite and made a knee jerk reactionary trade. And now we're taking on a guy who's actually known as a problem child.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again, you don't make much sense.
Dude, I make perfect sense. And after the way we argued over the Gionta and Gomez deals and how it's all turned out, you should listen to me more closely and give my posts some more respect. I've been dead on with what's been happening and you've taken the position of defending management most of the time.

I'll put my record up against yours anytime.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What did you want? Keep Cammy? Sell him for a first rounder? Which non playoff team would trade their 1st rounder for him? How do you take in 6M without giving anything?
What would you have liked?? What could we have gone that would improve our chances?
Read my posts.

I said we should look at trading Cammy but if we aren't getting something of value back like a good prospect or first rounder, then we should just hang onto him. He's too good a player to just dump for (I believe the term I used today before the trade was) - a bag of hamburgers but that's pretty much what we did.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why does getting this return=not improving chances? How do you even measure that?
They are trying to rebuild, other changes will happen. I don't think they believe Bourque is the savior.
I've explained this to you already. It's the same situation as with Gomez, Gionta and Cole... it's opportunity cost. We are wasting our time with medicore vets and not investing our time in getting the best young prospects and picks that we can. We now actually got older with this trade and while Bourque is less expensive, his contract is longer and we're now tied up even further down the line.

This is doing nothing to address us assembling a cup winner. It is perpetuating mediocrity.

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So what would be the return you would have been happy with? Keeping it realistic as well.
Cammy is not Scott Gomez, he HAS value to teams. This morning (before the trade) the analysts were talking about how many clubs would love to add a guy like this down the stretch. Yes, he's expensive but teams know what he brings to the table.

If he's not garnering at least a first rounder or good prospect then we shouldn't have bothered. If that means taking on a bad contract for a short period as well... fine, do it. Otherwise we should have just left him here on the roster. I've said this for a long time now and as far as I know, you didn't have a problem with my position. Now that he's been traded though, suddenly I suspect you will.

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01-12-2012, 11:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
we had the chance EVEN HIS AGENT said so ...
Obviously, they were not disinterested in that, otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to one.
But, to be clear, his agent did acknowledge that his client was a RFA which gives him a lot less power, and also that were they to discuss such a deal then, the numbers would have needed to be just.
So, you can forget about him being locked up for 2.5M. That would have never happened. I'd say 3.2-3.5M is probably what they would have landed on imo, so I won't make an issue for 500K.

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01-12-2012, 11:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Cammy is not Scott Gomez, he HAS value to teams. This morning the analysts were talking about how many clubs would love to add a guy like this down the stretch. Yes, he's expensive but teams know what he brings to the table.
But what do you think would be the return? We would not get a top prospect. At most a prospect and a pick. Probably a late first rounder. And you never know if thats going to pan out. This way we still get a pick and prospect, plus something tangible to play on the team in the mean time. Picks don't just join the team next season. And a salary dump.

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01-12-2012, 11:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
Gomez made almost 8 million when traded for him and Gionta was signed at 5. And you did not get a second round pick with them.
I hated those deals too. I'm not sure what your point is here.
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I don't like the idea of adding another plus thirty player either, but if we are going to be selling, you still have to have some guys to fill a regular roster spot. Those picks you want can't just join the team next year. This is a guy who doesnt handicap us cap wise.
Of course. But that doesn't mean we have to deal away Cammy without getting better prospects or picks in return.

At the end of the day... it comes down to what your goals are. I don't think management has a long term strategy. I think they're making decisions on a reactionary day to day basis. Kaberle was a good example and now we have this. These aren't the moves of a GM who's looking to build a cup winner, they're the moves of a man who's struggling to get his team into 8th place.
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But what do you think would be the return? We would not get a top prospect. At most a prospect and a pick. Probably a late first rounder. And you never know if thats going to pan out. This way we still get a pick and prospect, plus something tangible to play on the team in the mean time. Picks don't just join the team next season. And a salary dump.
As I said before, if we don't get anything of any real value... fine. Hang onto him then. It doesn't make sense to sell low. Cammy is a better player than this and will bounce back. If GMs aren't going to give us what he's truly worth then we just hang onto him. That's what I said today before the trade, yesterday, last week and last month.

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01-12-2012, 11:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Obviously, they were not disinterested in that, otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to one.
But, to be clear, his agent did acknowledge that his client was a RFA which gives him a lot less power, and also that were they to discuss such a deal then, the numbers would have needed to be just.
So, you can forget about him being locked up for 2.5M. That would have never happened. I'd say 3.2-3.5M is probably what they would have landed on imo, so I won't make an issue for 500K.

I think your wrong , i think 2.75 max

Oh well at least we save money on Cammy..LOL...
what a joke.



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Kevin Epp, Josh Gorges agent: "Habs would not have had to pay that much if something had been done in the summer".

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01-12-2012, 11:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I hated those deals too. I'm not sure what your point is here.

Of course. But that doesn't mean we have to deal away Cammy without getting better prospects or picks in return.

At the end of the day... it comes down to what your goals are. I don't think management has a long term strategy. I think they're making decisions on a reactionary day to day basis. Kaberle was a good example and now we have this. These aren't the moves of a GM who's looking to build a cup winner, they're the moves of a man who's struggling to get his team into 8th place.
My point was those deals were much different. You made the comparison. I am saying I don't think it's the same thing at all. I know what you mean though, Lafleur's Guy. My initial thought was damn I would like someone younger as well. But we are not adding some over paid old player to our roster. We are adding a guy who fills a roster spot for much less than these guys and produces about the same. You still need some of these guys on your team, cuz your picks cant come in and play right away. Bourque is the actual tangible part of the deal. The difference between a 2nd rounder and a late 1st may not be much. And if we sell at the deadline, we have a cheap replacement for vet presence in our lineup who will actually be able to play next year.

I am basically on the same page as you. And I am not sure if I actually trust Gauthier. I think changes will be made this year though. And as for this deal, I think it is pretty decent. The only other thing I may have hoped for was packaging Cammy + some other piece for a dman, but I am not sure who would bite on that one.


Last edited by andy28: 01-12-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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01-12-2012, 11:55 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I care. So should you. And you are the one who raised the question with me.
The GMs say one thing, you choose not to believe it. Not gonna spend time talking about this. Believe whatever you want to.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Dude, I make perfect sense. And after the way we argued over the Gionta and Gomez deals and how it's all turned out, you should listen to me more closely and give my posts some more respect. I've been dead on with what's been happening and you've taken the position of defending management most of the time.
I haven't defended management, I preached patience. You see it as defending.
Again, believe what you want.

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I'll put my record up against yours anytime.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I said we should look at trading Cammy but if we aren't getting something of value back like a good prospect or first rounder, then we should just hang onto him. He's too good a player to just dump for (I believe the term I used today before the trade was) - a bag of hamburgers but that's pretty much what we did.
Can't say I disagree. I even argued here that moving the bigger contracts would not be all that hard. That guys like Gionta and Cammy, even if overpaid, are very movable imo.
But it did create more room, brought in a decent pick and added a decent depth player.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
This is doing nothing to address us assembling a cup winner. It is perpetuating mediocrity.
It's the start of a rebuild. Too early to know where it will lead us. I know your take on patience though.
If nothing else is done and we don't use the extra cap appropriately, then yea, it's a useless move. Can't know this yet however.

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01-12-2012, 11:56 PM
  #33
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WHAT???

after he just wasted how much on Markov?

After how much EXTRA he just paid a 3.9 million Gorges???
who really should have been locked in at 2.5 -2.75

after bringing in 4 plus million Kaberle to fix our pp?

So what we saved money on Cammy , he doesn't know how to manage that either!



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So you wanted Gorges to leave as a UFA? Of course you didn't and he would have made more than your paltry $2.5-$2.75M, so take away that $3.9M. Markov hasn't counted even $1 (yes, one dollar) against the cap this season, so remove that too. As for Kaberle, you have to consider that the Habs would have been paying Spacek for the rest of this season. Isn't Kaberle more useful to the Habs right now than Spacek would have been? Also, Gauthier got rid of Hamrlik's salary, which totaled more than the combined salaries of Diaz and Emelin. If there's anything left to your argument, please inform me, because so far you've come up empty while taking a meaningless cheap shot at Gauthier.

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01-12-2012, 11:58 PM
  #34
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My point was those deals were much different. You made the comparison. I am saying I don't think it's the same thing at all.
They are the same in so far as we're investing in mediocre 30 year olds who won't take us anywhere. That's all I'm trying to say.

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I know what you mean though, Lafleur's Guy. My initial thought was damn I would like someone younger as well. But we are not adding some over paid old player to our roster. We are adding a guy who fills a roster spot for much less than these guys and produces about the same. You still need some of these guys on your team, cuz your picks cant come in and play right away. Bourque is the actual tangible part of the deal. The difference between a 2nd rounder and a late 1st may not be much. And if we sell at the deadline, we have a cheap replacement for vet presence in our lineup.
I think there's a bit of slight of hand with those numbers though. They produce about the same but you have to factor in the fact that Cammy is currently going through his worst season ever and has had back to back seasons where he's been on the IR for extended periods of time. When he's on his game, he's a much better player than Bourque is.

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Bourque. I don't mean to. It's not a disaster and I don't mean to make it sound like one. He's a capable streaky player and (fortunately) he has some size. There is definitely some short term good that will come out of this.

But we wasted an asset and aren't building towards a cup. Dealing Cammy could've been a way to help get us there but we wasted this card on a lateral move.

Without a first or a prospect, we shouldn't have made this deal. As for us needing people to fill out our lineup next year, we could've taken on another player to fill that role in the trade as a means of helping that club with their cap.

We need to be much more proactive in how we do things if we ever want to see a cup in Montreal again. This is just another wasted move.

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01-13-2012, 12:04 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They are the same in so far as we're investing in mediocre 30 year olds who won't take us anywhere. That's all I'm trying to say.


I think there's a bit of slight of hand with those numbers though. They produce about the same but you have to factor in the fact that Cammy is currently going through his worst season ever and has had back to back seasons where he's been on the IR for extended periods of time. When he's on his game, he's a much better player than Bourque is.
He most certainly is a better player. That's why we also got a prospect and a second pick.

I don't like the investing in 30 year olds either. I would rather have not signed Kaberle that's for sure. But we might also be moving a few of those old guys pretty soon. At least this one isnt making over 5 million. So its not like a huge investment. Its a salary dump. We still need guys in the lineup. If we start paying our thirty year old 20 goal scorers under 4 million, we can invest in better things.

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01-13-2012, 12:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
No.

If we wanted to rebuild or tank, we wouldn't have made this move. This was another reactionary panic move made in haste by a GM who's under the gun. It was a lateral move that could work out for us in the short term but does nothing to address what we should be addressing... building towards a cup.

If Bourque doesn't work out though, we just might end up 'tanking' anyway.
Wrong.

This is exactly the kind of move you do when trying to rebuild/retool

a 5th and a goalie who's likely nerver going to play for us... for a 2nd and a prospect...

(a goalie wholl never play for us for a prospect who may never pan out - where's the loss ?)

then...

take the less talented player, wich "techinally" should help us lose some more and get a better pick...

on top of saving 3M in cap space...

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01-13-2012, 12:07 AM
  #37
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He most certainly is a better player. That's why we also got a prospect and a second pick.

I don't like the investing in 30 year olds either. I would rather have not signed Kaberle that's for sure. But we might also be moving a few of those old guys pretty soon. At least this one isnt making over 5 million. So its not like a huge investment. Its a salary dump. We still need guys in the lineup. If we start paying our thirty year old 20 goal scorers under 4 million, we can invest in better things.
meh dont bother...

the guy spends his time telling everyone we should acquire picks and prospects...

and when we do... he's mad we got a salary dump along with it...

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01-13-2012, 12:12 AM
  #38
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The GMs say one thing, you choose not to believe it. Not gonna spend time talking about this. Believe whatever you want to.
The difference between us though Kriss is that I have the evidence of Cammy being taken out in the 3rd period to back me up. It also happens the very day after he goes on a rant.

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I haven't defended management, I preached patience. You see it as defending.
Again, believe what you want.
Your posts are there for all to read and I don't think you understand what patience actually means. See below.
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Can't say I disagree. I even argued here that moving the bigger contracts would not be all that hard. That guys like Gionta and Cammy, even if overpaid, are very movable imo.
But it did create more room, brought in a decent pick and added a decent depth player.
So what? Cammy was an asset that we wasted here. A depth player (and I think Bourque is a 2nd liner) does nothing for us and in all likelyhood neither will that 2nd rounder (which has a 25-30 percent chance of becoming an NHLer.)
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It's the start of a rebuild. Too early to know where it will lead us.
Go look at the Gomez and Gionta threads. This is exactly what you said back when we made those moves.

You have no idea what a rebuild is Kriss. A rebuild is NOT going out and getting 30 year old players who aren't going to do anything but replace the outgoing player that you just got rid of to make space for them.

And it is NOT too early to evaluate this trade anymore than it was too early to evaluate the Gomez fiasco. Again, this is what you said about the Gomez trade. I don't need a crystal ball to know that this is a band-aid fix.

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I know your take on patience though.
Clearly you don't. You don't understand what patience is.

Patience is NOT going out and constantly re-patching old band-aids with new ones. Patience is NOT going out and getting Thomas Kaberle in order to save your team from spiralling out of 8th place. And rebuilding is NOT getting 30 year old retreads to build with. And how the hell is management exhibiting patience by dealing Cammy one day after the comments he made? Wake up.

I am the guy preaching patience Kriss. How is it that you don't understand this after 5 years on this msg board? How is it that you still don't get that in order to build a cup winning team we're probably (not definitely but probably) going to need to draft players and develop them and build around them to win?

But we aren't patient. We go for quick fixes. And it's killed us for 15 years.
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If nothing else is done and we don't use the extra cap appropriately, then yea, it's a useless move. Can't know this yet however.
Right, just like we 'can't know if McD will ever pan out'.

Stop hiding behind this silly argument. It didn't work for you then and it doesn't work for you now. I'd have thought that you'd have learned something from the Gomez trade.

Your position of 'all we know is that we're a better team today than we were yesterday' is even more laughable now than it was then. And it will be more ridiculous five years from now and probably more so in ten.

And wth makes you think that any free agent in his right mind is going to want to come here with the gong show that we've got going on with management here? I mean seriously dude...
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
He most certainly is a better player. That's why we also got a prospect and a second pick.

I don't like the investing in 30 year olds either. I would rather have not signed Kaberle that's for sure. But we might also be moving a few of those old guys pretty soon. At least this one isnt making over 5 million. So its not like a huge investment. Its a salary dump. We still need guys in the lineup. If we start paying our thirty year old 20 goal scorers under 4 million, we can invest in better things.
Like more free agents? I'm sorry, I get where you're coming from. But we need to start moving towards younger players otherwise that cap space doesn't mean much.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-13-2012 at 12:19 AM.
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01-13-2012, 12:16 AM
  #39
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Cammy is a better player than this and will bounce back. If GMs aren't going to give us what he's truly worth then we just hang onto him. That's what I said today before the trade, yesterday, last week and last month.
I think Cammy is a valuable player too. But he is also a guy whose talent is dependent on the guys around him. I know to some degree you can say that for all players, but I think you know what I mean. He isn't the best along the boards. He isn't a stickhandler. He is a shot. I think when he finds his shot again, he will be a tremendous asset to another team. But I don't know if a team sucking like ours is can raise his value.

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01-13-2012, 12:18 AM
  #40
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Yes, yes we're tanking.

Next on the list: Gill and Campoli.

And for god's sake re-sign Moen and AK plz!!!

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01-13-2012, 12:21 AM
  #41
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Like more free agents?
Well. It depends. I am for building within just like you are. But you can't do that one hundred percent either. You can use that money to resign players in the future. You can use it to sign a younger free agent, and cheaper free agents who will not have albatross contracts, making them tradeable. You still have to sign guys if you are going to sell vets and stock picks. The Hamilton Bulldogs still need a lineup too. We can't bring half of them up here.

Look at it this way, did you like Gainey tying 20 million up in three players?

Well this is a step in the other direction. We actually dumped salary for once.

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01-13-2012, 12:22 AM
  #42
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So you wanted Gorges to leave as a UFA? Of course you didn't and he would have made more than your paltry $2.5-$2.75M, so take away that $3.9M. Markov hasn't counted even $1 (yes, one dollar) against the cap this season, so remove that too. As for Kaberle, you have to consider that the Habs would have been paying Spacek for the rest of this season. Isn't Kaberle more useful to the Habs right now than Spacek would have been? Also, Gauthier got rid of Hamrlik's salary, which totaled more than the combined salaries of Diaz and Emelin. If there's anything left to your argument, please inform me, because so far you've come up empty while taking a meaningless cheap shot at Gauthier.
no ,he should have got signed first of season ..


Instead Gauthier gambles on Markov and Josh and lost both times...


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01-13-2012, 12:26 AM
  #43
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I think Cammy is a valuable player too. But he is also a guy whose talent is dependent on the guys around him. I know to some degree you can say that for all players, but I think you know what I mean. He isn't the best along the boards. He isn't a stickhandler. He is a shot. I think when he finds his shot again, he will be a tremendous asset to another team. But I don't know if a team sucking like ours is can raise his value.
I definitely agree that we set him up to fail here. We teamed him with small forwards and that was a recipe for disaster. Oddly enough, playing with a guy like Bourque would've been great for him.
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Well. It depends. I am for building within just like you are. But you can't do that one hundred percent either. You can use that money to resign players in the future. You can use it to sign a younger free agent.

Look at it this way, did you like Gainey tying 20 million up in three players?

Well this is a step in the other direction. We actually dumped salary for once.
Its nice that we dumped salary but it's a longer deal.

Bottom line is that we continue to avoid addressing what we need to do... get better prospects in the system.

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01-13-2012, 12:29 AM
  #44
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Bottom line is that we continue to avoid addressing what we need to do... get better prospects in the system.
Well, I am with you there. And I hope we do that this season. The thing is we really dont know what Gauthier is up to here. But I can see this being a positive move, just depends on where we are going next with it.

I wish we could bring in a top dman from somewhere.

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01-13-2012, 12:32 AM
  #45
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Well, I am with you there. And I hope we do that this season. The thing is we really dont know what Gauthier is up to here. But I can see this being a positive move, just depends on where we are going next with it.

I wish we could bring in a top dman from somewhere.
I wonder if Ryan McDonnaugh is available?

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01-13-2012, 12:35 AM
  #46
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I wonder if Ryan McDonnaugh is available?
Yeah, I'd take him and Higgins back any day.

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01-13-2012, 01:00 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The difference between us though Kriss is that I have the evidence of Cammy being taken out in the 3rd period to back me up. It also happens the very day after he goes on a rant.
Actually, evidence would be something like video footage of a GM clearly stating that this deal has been in the works for 1 month.
What you have is speculation, funnily enough, later in your post you try to mock me by saying I don't understand the definitions of simple words like ''rebuild'' or ''patience''.
Speculate: to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence (Merriam-Webster)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Your posts are there for all to read and I don't think you understand what patience actually means. See below.

So what? Cammy was an asset that we wasted here. A depth player (and I think Bourque is a 2nd liner) does nothing for us and in all likelyhood neither will that 2nd rounder (which has a 25-30 percent chance of becoming an NHLer.)
If Bourque plays worse than Cammy did, then we will keep dropping down the standing, which should make you, of all people, quite happy.
If he does play well, then he might be viewed as the replacement for AK, who then could be moved at the deadline.

Hence me speaking of patience.
Patience: bearing pains or trials calmly or without complaint (Merriam-Webster)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You have no idea what a rebuild is Kriss. A rebuild is NOT going out and getting 30 year old players who aren't going to do anything but replace the outgoing player that you just got rid of to make space for them.
As I said to you many times before, there are many ways to rebuild.
Rebuild: to build again, remodel (Merriam-Webster)

Well, again, I still don't see the big deal. If all he will do is replace Cammy, then we keep dropping and get a shot at the lotto picks. If he's better, than it's an improvement, no matter how little, by definition.
Improvement: to enhance in value or quality (Merriam-Webster)

If it's because you think Cammy could have fetched us something significantly better, then okay. But again, that's speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And it is NOT too early to evaluate this trade anymore than it was too early to evaluate the Gomez fiasco. Again, this is what you said about the Gomez trade. I don't need a crystal ball to know that this is a band-aid fix.
Yes, I did say that, but that's not all I said.
What I truly said was that all the free agents put together could end up being good. I insisted on the word ''together'', but you had more fun focusing on one element of the post, as you usually do.
I actually never once omitted an opinion on whether I felt it was a good or bad trade. As you said, the threads and posts are there, so you can go check for yourself. I might have forgotten it, but I certainly don't recall. If I did, then I was wrong, just like you said there was no chance we'd beat Washington, and then even less chances of getting through Pittsburgh (which means under 0% chance).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Patience is NOT going out and constantly re-patching old band-aids with new ones. Patience is NOT going out and getting Thomas Kaberle in order to save your team from spiralling out of 8th place. And rebuilding is NOT getting 30 year old retreads to build with.
You're the one that seems to be confused with the definitions.
You believe the proper way to rebuild is to draft high and get good prospects. That's your opinion. No need to get into this whole debate. We all know your stance.

I preach patience in general, especially when there's so many changes at once. That doesn't mean I can't be critical. I didn't mind the Kaberle deal, but that's considering we'd know how to use him properly. I'm hoping he gets moved now.
This trade, I don't think it's a great one, I don't think it's bad either.
I'm not trying to defend PG however, I want an organizational change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I am the guy preaching patience Kriss. How is it that you don't understand this after 5 years on this msg board? How is it that you still don't get that in order to build a cup winning team we're probably (not definitely but probably) going to need to draft players and develop them and build around them to win?
You're not preaching patience, you're preaching a rebuild through picks and prospect. The day that happens, we'll see how patient you truly are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And how the hell is management exhibiting patience by dealing Cammy one day after the comments he made? Wake up.
Again, this is your own assumption. Don't mix words up.
You have no proof that Cammy was traded because of his comments. There is no evident that points to it being the cause either. It might have been the last straw, but certainly not the cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Right, just like we 'can't know if McD will ever pan out'.

Stop hiding behind this silly argument. It didn't work for you then and it doesn't work for you now. I'd have thought that you'd have learned something from the Gomez trade.

Your position of 'all we know is that we're a better team today than we were yesterday' is even more laughable now than it was then. And it will be more ridiculous five years from now and probably more so in ten.
I don't think we're a better team today actually, not sure how you draw that one up. Considering you enjoy shaping things up in order to match your points, I can't say I'm surprised though.
I don't expect Bourque to be the savior. Things won't turn around unless we get White, Markov and Gomez back. If that happens, then perhaps, but we're not there. So I expect us to keep dropping down, and hopefully even more so as the deadline approaches which would solidify the idea that we must sell players.
Too bad Gionta got injured, I'd have wanted him to be sold as well, along with Kaberle, Moen, Gill and perhaps AK.
So no, I don't think we are better today than we were yesterday. But I think this move could be a step in the right direction.


Last edited by Kriss E: 01-13-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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01-13-2012, 01:32 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually, evidence would be something like video footage of a GM clearly stating that this deal has been in the works for 1 month.
What you have is speculation, funnily enough, later in your post you try to mock me by saying I don't understand the definitions of simple words like ''rebuild'' or ''patience''.
Speculate: to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence (Merriam-Webster)
Dude, exhibit some common sense here. Maybe they had been talking for a while. It still doesn't negate the fact that PG pulled Cammy out in the middle of a game the day after his rant.

How far do you want to take your silly argument here. You can sit there and say 'there's no proof' all you want. User your head dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If Bourque plays worse than Cammy did, then we will keep dropping down the standing, which should make you, of all people, quite happy.
If he does play well, then he might be viewed as the replacement for AK, who then could be moved at the deadline.

Hence me speaking of patience.
Patience: bearing pains or trials calmly or without complaint (Merriam-Webster) )
Your definition of patience is incomplete. Please also include the antonym here:
Patience: Antonym: See Montreal Canadiens for the last 15 years.(Merriam-Webster)

Please also see the following definitions:

Dumb Trade: (see also, ripped off) ie. offering up McD for Gomez (Merriam-Webster)
Waste of Time: (see also, spinning your wheels and going nowhere) Dealing away guys like Mike Cammaleri for players of equal of lesser value and of older age and no good prospects.
Panic Move: (see also, Gauthier, Paul) Making rash decisions based on fear for your own job.
Overpaid retreads: (see also Kaberle, Gionta, Gomez and the Canadiens roster) Overpaid players who aren't worth the money and left over from other teams.
Blind: Defending any trade made by your GM including dumb trades like Gomez for McD and waste of time moves like Cammy for Bourque (see also apologist and Kool-Aid addict) (Merriam-Webster)
Retooling What apologists think passes for a rebuild.
Mediocrity: See Montreal Canadiens for the last 15 years.
Elite Prospect: Great young player. Antonym: See Montreal Canadiens prospect list.
Asset: Thing of value. ie. The asset management of the Montreal Canadiens has been terrible for years as they've squandered assets like Mike Cammaleri.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As I said to you many times before, there are many ways to rebuild.
Rebuild: to build again, remodel (Merriam-Webster) )
Your dictionary is out of date. Please see revised definition.

Rebuilding: Getting younger elite prospects to build with. Antonym: Doing what the Montreal Canadiens have done for 15 years.(Merriam-Webster)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, again, I still don't see the big deal. If all he will do is replace Cammy, then we keep dropping and get a shot at the lotto picks. If he's better, than it's an improvement, no matter how little, by definition.
Improvement: to enhance in value or quality (Merriam-Webster)
Running in circles: To not enhance in value or quality. To stay the same. To not improve: ie. Doing what the Montreal Canadiens have done for 15 years. (Merriam-Webster)
Insanity:To keep doing the same thing and expect different results: ie. Doing what the Montreal Canadiens have done for 15 years. (Merriam-Webster)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If it's because you think Cammy could have fetched us something significantly better, then okay. But again, that's speculation.
Sure it is. But even if he couldn't we should've just kept him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, I did say that, but that's not all I said.
What I truly said was that all the free agents put together could end up being good. I insisted on the word ''together'', but you had more fun focusing on one element of the post, as you usually do.
I actually never once omitted an opinion on whether I felt it was a good or bad trade. As you said, the threads and posts are there, so you can go check for yourself. I might have forgotten it, but I certainly don't recall. If I did, then I was wrong, just like you said there was no chance we'd beat Washington, and then even less chances of getting through Pittsburgh (which means under 0% chance).
Yeah that's right. You never said if it was a good or bad trade. You just defended the hell out of it, as you are doing now and then fell back on... we can't know right now.

The fact is, we CAN evaluate deals when they are made dude. No we don't know how everything will turn out but we absolutely can criticize GMs for the deals they make with the knowledge they have at the time of the deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're the one that seems to be confused with the definitions.
You believe the proper way to rebuild is to draft high and get good prospects. That's your opinion. No need to get into this whole debate. We all know your stance.

I preach patience in general, especially when there's so many changes at once. That doesn't mean I can't be critical. I didn't mind the Kaberle deal, but that's considering we'd know how to use him properly. I'm hoping he gets moved now.
This trade, I don't think it's a great one, I don't think it's bad either.
I'm not trying to defend PG however, I want an organizational change.

You're not preaching patience, you're preaching a rebuild through picks and prospect. The day that happens, we'll see how patient you truly are.
You don't preach patience. You defend the quick fix moves. We haven't exhibited patience in how we've built our team. The only patience you preach is for us to wait and see how the car wreck deals that we keep making will turn out. So we sit there and watch in slow motion as prospects like McD get better and guys like Gomez get worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again, this is your own assumption. Don't mix words up.
You have no proof that Cammy was traded because of his comments. There is no evident that points to it being the cause either.
Again, you're being silly here. "There's no proof"... are you freakin' kidding me here? You're asking for reasons to believe... give me a reason to doubt man.

The guy was traded less than 24 hours after his rant in the middle of a clash against the Bruins. But you believe Gauthier would've made this trade today anyway had the rant not happened yesterday?

Gullible: Easily deceived by GMs. See also: Apologist, Stevie Wonder, Kriss E and Kool Aid Addict. (Merriam-Webster)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think we're a better team today actually, not sure how you draw that one up.

Considering you enjoy shaping things up in order to match your points, I can't say I'm surprised though.
That's exactly what you said when we dealt for Gomez. And that's what I was referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't expect Bourque to be the savior. Things won't turn around unless we get White, Markov and Gomez back. If that happens, then perhaps, but we're not there. So I expect us to keep dropping down, and hopefully even more so as the deadline approaches which would solidify the idea that we must sell players.
Too bad Gionta got injured, I'd have wanted him to be sold as well, along with Kaberle, Moen, Gill and perhaps AK.
So no, I don't think we are better today than we were yesterday. But I think this move could be a step in the right direction.
Blind Faith: Belief without understanding or reason. Stubbornly wanting to believe even in the face of evidence that proves otherwise. See also: squashed like grape.

Edit: Bob Mackenzie this morning said he was "incredulous" on Gauthier's comments. Feel free to look that up in the dictionary too. He argued that to believe that you really have to stretch your beliefs to swallow what Gauthier was trying to sell on this trade being independent of Cammy's comments. All the panelists from every show that I've seen thinks this is a bad trade btw.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-13-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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Old
01-13-2012, 07:35 AM
  #49
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Ha! I sure as hell hope we're in Tank mode! I prepared for it a month ago! Obviously, some people didn't.

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01-13-2012, 08:00 AM
  #50
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No.

Gauthier is still trying to save his job.

Fortunately for us (or unfortunately) he's so god awful that his attempts to save his job will plummet us deeper in the basement.

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