HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Primes: Adam Oates, Ron Francis or Sergei Fedorov?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-15-2012, 03:24 PM
  #26
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i think kovalev's all-time talent is overrated. he has the size, the dangles, the shot, and all that, but i don't think he had the offensive vision to be anything more than a fringe top 100 player if he'd had his head screwed on straight. which of course is nothing to scoff at; but i've heard people saying kovalev could have been jagr, when in reality i don't think kovalev could even have been iginla.
I agree. I'm not saying that Kovalev was a player that gave 100% every game, but i sometimes think that people confuse vision and hockey sense with heart.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-10-2012, 10:04 AM
  #27
Brooklanders*
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
Who was the best of the three, better yet rank them.

I say

Oates
Fedorov
Francis

But its very close.
Fedorov and it's by a mile

Brooklanders* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-10-2012, 08:44 PM
  #28
Bruwinz37
Registered User
 
Bruwinz37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
I absolutely love Adam Oates, but I couldn't justify taking him before Federov in his prime. Federov is the type of player that Oilers fans dream Taylor Hall will become. Although, Adam Oates is damn close to what we are hoping to see from Eberle as well.
Adam Oates is nothing like Jordan Eberle.

Oates from 91-95 was an unbelievable offensive player. Known as a playmaker but when Neely was hobbled he assumed the role of a goal scorer and had a 45 goal season to his credit. Dominant faceoff guy and a very good defensive player as well.

Tought to compare the 3. Feds probably had the most talent...but I think he underpeformed to that talent level and Francis had the longest run of success.

Tough call...Fedorov probably the best player, but if you take the best stretch of 5 years you might have to go Oates.

Bruwinz37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-10-2012, 08:56 PM
  #29
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
If Oates played the full 1991 season, he would have scored 151 points and hull would have likely broke gretzky's 92 goal record. Ditto with 1994, oates would have scored over 120 points and neely would have scored 85 goals. The fact that he turned joe juneau into a 100 point scorer is amazing. Hes easily the best offensive player of the 3. Best two way game is feds, francis is a distant 3rd in terms of peak.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-10-2012, 11:20 PM
  #30
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If prime is simply best season then would pick federov, if best 3 years i\m picking oates.
Including playoffs?

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-10-2012, 11:49 PM
  #31
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,097
vCash: 500
Top 10 assist/point finishes for those curious

Assists
Federov -
Francis - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th
Oates - 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th

Points
Federov - 2nd, 10th
Francis - 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th
Oates - 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th, 10th

This isn't a fair comparison for Federov as he was a two-way guy and absolute beast in the playoffs.

Oates had an extra top 10 for assists, but also had 2 first place to Francis' 1 and 8 top 3 to Francis' 3.

I still maintain Oates is the best passer post 1980 after Gretzky and Lemieux.

jigglysquishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 08:57 AM
  #32
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 30,039
vCash: 500
Fedorov
.
.
Oates
.
Francis

For me, anyway.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 09:08 AM
  #33
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,849
vCash: 500
Opinions of those with the word "Federov" in their posts should be disregarded.

Or, better yet:


Fedorov



Ots
Fransis


Even though Ots and Fransis both probably got more respect and were more liked than the Superstar Enigma "F," the latter was far and away most important of the three. I rank Feds in the Top 50 skaters of all time... oh, and as far in the "SKATING" department he is in the Top 5.

Whoever said Lindros had the potential of being in the Top 5...

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 10:35 AM
  #34
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
 
TheMoreYouKnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 11,204
vCash: 500
People question Fedorov's character too easily without looking at the circumstances. That generation of Russian players faced a life situation considerably different from that of their North American or Scandinavian contemporaries or even modern Russian players.

You can look beyond sports even and you will find that many people of that generation in Eastern Europe had a heck of a time sorting out priorities and attitudes from what to eat and drive to how to pursue careers. Throw in all the money a high-end pro athlete can earn and the extreme pressures of being suc an athlete and you have those issues amplified.

You come from a very restrictive regime, where your life plans are to a large extent made for you by others and then you are told you are free, here's money you can do what you want. But of course life in a market economy has its own limitations and its own demands which can be a burden as well and can collide strongly with your desire to have a good life. A pro athlete has more opportunity than most, more outlets for leisure than most, but he also lives a life much more regimented, much more colored by authority figures than most normal people as such a life is simply demanded by team sports at such a high level. Temptation and obligation exist next to each other and for a former Soviet citizen and Soviet soldier this field of tension between freedom and desires on the one hand and the pressures and obligations of life in a cut-throat business world on the other will be felt much more acutely than by someone who has been raised to balance such things all their lives.

TheMoreYouKnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 12:04 PM
  #35
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapshooter View Post
Fedorov and it's not close. He could do it all except the rough stuff and none of those players were tough in that regard.

Oates was a better playmaker, Francis had a better character/leadership and both were better faceoff men, but Fedorov was better at everything else. Especially at skating, shooting and stick handling. Oates had one of the best offensive hockey IQ's, but in overall hockey sense (defense and offense combined) Fedorov was clearly superior and even better than Francis, who had a similar hockey sense.

Sergei Fedorov was basically a franchise caliber superstar minus his character. He had the skill set to blow up some records, but the effort was not there during the every game and season. Fedorov lacked the passion to be the best. He more like just did his job and still got pretty amazing results.

Imo Feforov is the most talented, not necessarily the best, Russian player ever.
I would agree with most of this here and like TDMM said that's not even including playoffs, where I think Federov has one of the best 4 year runs period post expansion from 95-98.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 03-11-2012 at 12:35 PM.
Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 12:06 PM
  #36
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If Oates played the full 1991 season, he would have scored 151 points and hull would have likely broke gretzky's 92 goal record. Ditto with 1994, oates would have scored over 120 points and neely would have scored 85 goals. The fact that he turned joe juneau into a 100 point scorer is amazing. Hes easily the best offensive player of the 3. Best two way game is feds, francis is a distant 3rd in terms of peak.
What are you basing this on? Hull scored 30 goals in 32 games in 91-92 after Oates left. He had that scoring touch with or without Oates. Just an amazing 3 year peak. Certainly they were a dynamic duo. But don"t sell them short points just because the other was not around.


Oates, in the games Neely missed in 93-94 scored 15 goals and 32 assists in 34 games. On pace for 107 points over 77 games without Neely and 116 points with Neely. Neely was sporadically sitting out 2nd and 3rd games all season and missed a large chunk at the end in a row. Not a huge difference. in the last 11 games Neely missed in a row, Oates actually increased productivity and scored 18 points in 11 games.
Oates himself missed 7 games in January due to injury. Of those 7 games, Neely played 5 and scored 4 goals and an assist. Not bad at all

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 12:43 PM
  #37
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Ability to be a top 30 or better all-time player. Reality is no where near that.
Wondering where you would have him then?

I see Bobby Clarke regularly in the top 30 (Clarke is 21st on the last list of 70, Federov is nowhere to be found) in this section and while Bobby gave it his all and Federov left you wanting for more who actually has the more impressive career and value overall?

If we actually rate what he did instead of how much he could have done those 2 guys are extremely close IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 01:08 PM
  #38
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
 
TheGoldenJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Exactly, if he brought his A game night in night out, he'd be among the greatest ever.
Not sure about this. Not that I don't think he had the talent to, just in terms of the conditions he played under.

I mean, if you look at his teammates in 1996-97 for example, he had Shanahan in the middle of his hey-day and a still solid Stevie Yzerman to play with, but he played with neither player. He was stuck with Doug Brown and Slava Kozlov on the second line, playing 17 minutes per night. On top of that, he played multiple games as a defenceman during both the regular season and the playoffs that year.

It would be near impossible to dominate under those conditions (ie. under Scotty Bowman's "dislike") for any forward, regardless of talent or leadership level.


(And before someone says he "deserved" to be a second liner that year and for years after, I beg to differ. He was the Wings' top scoring center for three years straight at the time, their top scoring player at the 96/97 WCoH, and also the player who scored their only goal in their season opener that year (3-1 loss to NJ), ie. the game before the Shanahan trade.)

TheGoldenJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 01:13 PM
  #39
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
 
TheGoldenJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
People question Fedorov's character too easily without looking at the circumstances. That generation of Russian players faced a life situation considerably different from that of their North American or Scandinavian contemporaries or even modern Russian players.

You can look beyond sports even and you will find that many people of that generation in Eastern Europe had a heck of a time sorting out priorities and attitudes from what to eat and drive to how to pursue careers. Throw in all the money a high-end pro athlete can earn and the extreme pressures of being suc an athlete and you have those issues amplified.

You come from a very restrictive regime, where your life plans are to a large extent made for you by others and then you are told you are free, here's money you can do what you want. But of course life in a market economy has its own limitations and its own demands which can be a burden as well and can collide strongly with your desire to have a good life. A pro athlete has more opportunity than most, more outlets for leisure than most, but he also lives a life much more regimented, much more colored by authority figures than most normal people as such a life is simply demanded by team sports at such a high level. Temptation and obligation exist next to each other and for a former Soviet citizen and Soviet soldier this field of tension between freedom and desires on the one hand and the pressures and obligations of life in a cut-throat business world on the other will be felt much more acutely than by someone who has been raised to balance such things all their lives.
I agree and this "balancing" would have definitely played a role in his career as well. Just look at how he dropped the ball on the financial aspect of life: most of his life savings were stolen away by that crook Larl Zada.

TheGoldenJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 03:05 PM
  #40
blogofmike
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,125
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
What are you basing this on? Hull scored 30 goals in 32 games in 91-92 after Oates left. He had that scoring touch with or without Oates. Just an amazing 3 year peak. Certainly they were a dynamic duo. But don"t sell them short points just because the other was not around.


Oates, in the games Neely missed in 93-94 scored 15 goals and 32 assists in 34 games. On pace for 107 points over 77 games without Neely and 116 points with Neely. Neely was sporadically sitting out 2nd and 3rd games all season and missed a large chunk at the end in a row. Not a huge difference. in the last 11 games Neely missed in a row, Oates actually increased productivity and scored 18 points in 11 games.
Oates himself missed 7 games in January due to injury. Of those 7 games, Neely played 5 and scored 4 goals and an assist. Not bad at all
Hull also had 18 goals in 19 games without Oates in 1991, so he didn't exactly fall off the face of the earth when Oates was gone.

If you allow Hull-91 to score at the same pace without Oates as he did in games with Oates, Hull is projected to get 89.899 goals in 1991.

blogofmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 04:43 PM
  #41
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
What are you basing this on? Hull scored 30 goals in 32 games in 91-92 after Oates left. He had that scoring touch with or without Oates. Just an amazing 3 year peak. Certainly they were a dynamic duo. But don"t sell them short points just because the other was not around.


Oates, in the games Neely missed in 93-94 scored 15 goals and 32 assists in 34 games. On pace for 107 points over 77 games without Neely and 116 points with Neely. Neely was sporadically sitting out 2nd and 3rd games all season and missed a large chunk at the end in a row. Not a huge difference. in the last 11 games Neely missed in a row, Oates actually increased productivity and scored 18 points in 11 games.
Oates himself missed 7 games in January due to injury. Of those 7 games, Neely played 5 and scored 4 goals and an assist. Not bad at all
Oates played 54 games for st. louis in 1992, that would leave hull for 26 games at most without oates. Everyone on this board loves to give oates credit for the way he boosted the scoring of hull and neely, so i dont know why i'm being singled out here. You were the poster who talked about how thier careers changed after the trade in 1992.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 05:05 PM
  #42
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,798
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Hull also had 18 goals in 19 games without Oates in 1991, so he didn't exactly fall off the face of the earth when Oates was gone.

If you allow Hull-91 to score at the same pace without Oates as he did in games with Oates, Hull is projected to get 89.899 goals in 1991.
i have been guilty of crediting oates too much.

similar happened in '90:
Quote:
1989-90 season

In their first season together Hull scored 72 goals while Oates had 79 assists. Both played the full season, 80 games. Out of Hull's 72 goals, 45 was scored at even strength. However, Oates did only assist on 14 of them. More surprising is that that is the same amount of assists as the left-winger on Hull's line, Sergio Momesso, had. Momesso wasn't really a first-line caliber player so it is surprising that he had as many assists as Oates. One reason for this is that Oates wasn't Hull's center the entire season. Peter Zezel seems to have centered Hull for part of the season, he had 8 assists on Hull's goals at even strength. No other player had more than 5 ES assists.

Turning to the powerplay. Out of Hull's 27 PP goals, Oates assisted on 9 of them. That is actually fewer than Zezel's 13 assists. The only other player with more than 5 PP assists was Jeff Brown with 7.

So, in total, Oates assisted on 23 of Hull's goals, Zezel on 21 whereas Momesso assisted on 19. To me, that hardly suggests that Oates was crucial for Hull's success that season.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=972131

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 08:04 PM
  #43
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Oates played 54 games for st. louis in 1992, that would leave hull for 26 games at most without oates. Everyone on this board loves to give oates credit for the way he boosted the scoring of hull and neely, so i dont know why i'm being singled out here. You were the poster who talked about how thier careers changed after the trade in 1992.
Haha. Yes, I accidentally counted Hull from 01-06-92 instead of 02-06-92. I am using Hockey-reference game logs and comparing them side by side with Hull's window minimized and only the date showing. Was bound to make me mistakes. He scored 16 goals in 19 games after Oates left.

Yes, obviously I do not think Hull was at the Mario Lemieux level of scoring goals as his totals would indicate, however, I think Hull would have won those goal scoring titles even without Oates.

Neely? Well, I always advocate in favor of Neely and think his career was on the way to even greater goal scoring exploits than he had already achieved before Oates arrived. Until his career ending injury that is. His smarts and positioning in the offensive zone were getting better every year, and along with his great movement on his skates and excellent hands, he was on his way. Its a shame. Should be noted that he scored 9 goals in 9 games before Oates arrived in Boston as well. testament to how his smarts and positioning were improving.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2012, 08:09 PM
  #44
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
1. Oates
2. Fedorov
3. Francis

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2012, 01:27 PM
  #45
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,849
vCash: 500
Quote:
I mean, if you look at his teammates in 1996-97 for example, he had Shanahan in the middle of his hey-day and a still solid Stevie Yzerman to play with, but he played with neither player. He was stuck with Doug Brown and Slava Kozlov on the second line, playing 17 minutes per night. On top of that, he played multiple games as a defenceman during both the regular season and the playoffs that year.
Precisely. Between the abundance of talent on those DRW teams, his defensive responsibilities, and being in the Bowman's doghouse every now and then, Fedorov had very little room for records.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2012, 04:30 PM
  #46
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
fed francis oates

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.